New sulfur denitrator working great!

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO - Organic matter that will be mineralised by anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria using sulphur compounds (and elementary sulphur) as electron acceptor (example) plus DNRA bacteria ( Dissimilatory Nitrate Reduction to Ammonium ) (example)(wikipedia)

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, and that value for organic metabolism is going to be very low, right? I can't see how this could be worse than a fish excreting ammonia.

Let's assume the tank water looks like NSW:

Dissolved organic nitrogen in the global surface ocean: Distribution and fate

Error - Cookies Turned Off

agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

" The surface ocean (10 m) distribution of DON is presented in Figure 1. Values ranged from 2 to 7 umol kg-1 (with a mean for all observations of 4.4 +/- 0.5 umol kg-1); however, 75% of all observations fell within the narrow range of 3.8 to 4.8 umol kg-1 (indicated by the green colors in Figure 1). "

So assume 4.4 umol/kg

That's ~75 ug/L, or 0.08 ppm ammonia if all that organic N became ammonia.

That assumes one converted the entire tank of organic nitrogen at once. Even if you stripped the entire tank worth of organic over 24 h, you are only boosting ammonia by 0.003 ppm per hour.

Sounds like a fish peeing to me. Not a "concern" for a reef. lol

Obviously, only a small amount is converted at once.

Maybe the DNRA amount is significant. Maybe not.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

nice how expensive was the denitrator?

 

[robbyg]

Yes, and that value for organic metabolism is going to be very low, right? I can't see how this could be worse than a fish excreting ammonia.

Let's assume the tank water looks like NSW:

Dissolved organic nitrogen in the global surface ocean: Distribution and fate

Error - Cookies Turned Off

agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

" The surface ocean (10 m) distribution of DON is presented in Figure 1. Values ranged from 2 to 7 umol kg-1 (with a mean for all observations of 4.4 +/- 0.5 umol kg-1); however, 75% of all observations fell within the narrow range of 3.8 to 4.8 umol kg-1 (indicated by the green colors in Figure 1). "

So assume 4.4 umol/kg

That's ~75 ug/L, or 0.08 ppm ammonia if all that organic N became ammonia.

That assumes one converted the entire tank of organic nitrogen at once. Even if you stripped the entire tank worth of organic over 24 h, you are only boosting ammonia by 0.003 ppm per hour.

Sounds like a fish peeing to me. Not a "concern" for a reef. lol

Obviously, only a small amount is converted at once.

Maybe the DNRA amount is significant. Maybe not.

I still have a sample of the water that was coming out of my reactor when it was below -300 ORP.
It was literately burning the skin off my fish. I am not sure if it was HC (probably) or Ammonia.
The sample was sealed properly. I just got an Ammonia kit, would the sample still be viable after 3 weeks? If so I could test it and report back.

 

[robbyg]

nice how expensive was the denitrator?

Depends on the size of your tank and the amount Nitrate you need to remove.
It can be super cheap if you re-purpose an old Alk reactor or DIY one from scratch.

Here is one model, there are several you can choose from.
Sulfur Reactor

 

[Lasse]

Yes, and that value for organic metabolism is going to be very low, right? I can't see how this could be worse than a fish excreting ammonia.

Let's assume the tank water looks like NSW:

Dissolved organic nitrogen in the global surface ocean: Distribution and fate

Error - Cookies Turned Off

agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

" The surface ocean (10 m) distribution of DON is presented in Figure 1. Values ranged from 2 to 7 umol kg-1 (with a mean for all observations of 4.4 +/- 0.5 umol kg-1); however, 75% of all observations fell within the narrow range of 3.8 to 4.8 umol kg-1 (indicated by the green colors in Figure 1). "

So assume 4.4 umol/kg

That's ~75 ug/L, or 0.08 ppm ammonia if all that organic N became ammonia.

That assumes one converted the entire tank of organic nitrogen at once. Even if you stripped the entire tank worth of organic over 24 h, you are only boosting ammonia by 0.003 ppm per hour.

Sounds like a fish peeing to me. Not a "concern" for a reef. lol

Obviously, only a small amount is converted at once.

Maybe - maybe not - could be true if you only calculate that a water from a reef aquarium have the sam organic content as free oceanic water. A small ecosystem like an aquarium is could be another question IMO. It depends - IMO - of the husbandry of the reef tank

According the water content. I think there is an higher amount of protein and amino acids in an aquarium - as an example - my analysis from Triton N-DOC tests always show around 50 to 70 % higher total count of N compared with my measured NO3-N - that´s indicate a lot of amino acids/proteins in the water. This despite that I run an oversized skimmer.

But - higher amino acid/protein concentration in the water is not the only reason why I calculate with a lot of more of mineralisation of organic matter compared with your calculation.

In most cases - I think its true that the contribution of NH3/NH4 from fish and other aquatic animals is higher than the NH3/NH4 contribution from bacterial mineralisation (if you exclude the aminofication from NO3 done by bacteria with DNRA capability - they can complicates the analysis significantly). This thoughts is based on the fact that around 80 % of the N from the eaten food non used for build up of fish (and other aquatic animals) biomass will escape to the water in form of NH3/NH4 through the gills. however - it remains 20 % in the form of pop and it will be mineralised into NH3/NH4 with help of heterotrophic bacteria (aerobes and anaerobes does not matter - the aerobic heterotrophic bacteria does the job faster but both types excrete NH3/NH4. We should also consider that in this type of filter (slow flowing anaerobic filter) will a build up of organic matter (from food and from earlier bacteria growth) be rather large with time.

The above calculation is based on no spill of food - no overfeeding at all. The fact that most aquarium will be overfeed complicate things but much of it (especially in FO tanks - there the need of denitrification filters are more common than in reef tanks) will be processed by bacterial mineralisation.

Now some thought that´s maybe is far above my pay level (over my incompetence level ) and just speculation and general thoughts.

Maybe @Belgian Anthias is right that this (NH3/NH4 production of anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria) process is more troubling in a autotrophic based sulphur "de"nitrification filter compared with a normal heterotropic based denitrification process. However - I have in an sludge based anaerobic reactor measured NH3/NH4 levels in the middle of the reactor 200 higher than the content in both the ingoing and the the outgoing water! (fresh water and in a waste water treatment plant) The ingoing water content NO3 too - the outgoing water not - there was clearly denitrification going on. The reactor had run undisturbed for nearly 10 years at that time.

What´s Belgian Anthias seems to focus on is that when the NO3 in the water will be near 0 - the reactor turning from being a autotrophic "de"nitrification reactor to be a heterotrophic anaerobic reactor.
The autotrophic sulphur bacteria will in some or another way take energy from the reduction process and competes out the heterotrophic denitrification bacteria (lack of DOC - however this is high above my level because reduction processes normally not gain energy - as I understand - they demand energy).

However in an anaerobic process without NO3 - the heterotrophic bacteria has to rely on other sources of electron acceptors in the cell metabolism. Next stage will favour the bacteria that use sulphur (sulphur compounds) as electron acceptors in the metabolism - leaving hydrogen sulphide as a waste (instead of N2 when other bacteria can use NO3 as electron acceptor) Maybe not need to say that a sulphur based reactor is high in just sulphur . But in regardless if the heterotrophic bacteria use oxygen (aerobic processes), NO3, sulphur compounds, hydrogen or other compounds (anaerobic processes) as electron acceptors - their hunt for carbon (in the organic matter) will mineralise organic N into NH3/NH4.

IMO - the concern that a classic sulphur based "de"nitrification reactor can turn to produce both NH3/NH4 and H2S is real.

However if the production of NH3/NH4 is negative in the long run or not - I will lean to see it as a positive effect for the all over growth of a reef aquarium. In FO - it can be different. Will it during normal conditions produce a toxic NH3 spike or not? Probably not.

However - my observations and measurements at the wastewater plant I worked at back in the 90:ties indicate that high amount of NH3/NH4 can be trapped in the middle of an anaerobic reactor and what´s happens if the flow will rise through the reactor. We did this observations for a lot of years and used ion selective NH3 probes in the analyse work.

Will the production of H2S be negative. IMO if the H2S will come out in a water with lot of oxygen - minor problems - however at low oxygen concentrations even i the free tank water - it can be deadly

Maybe the DNRA amount is significant. Maybe not.

True

Sounds like a fish peeing to me

In Gothenburg we say "en kiss vid Vinga" (a pee at Vinga - Vinga is the last you see of Gothenburg after 1.5 hours travel through the archipelago out to Kattegatt)

But as stated above - I´m not sure that is always a true statement in a reef aquarium - I looks like me and @Belgian Anthias play in the same part of the court in this case

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I still have a sample of the water that was coming out of my reactor when it was below -300 ORP.
It was literately burning the skin off my fish. I am not sure if it was HC (probably) or Ammonia.
The sample was sealed properly. I just got an Ammonia kit, would the sample still be viable after 3 weeks? If so I could test it and report back.

No, it wouldn't be reliable now. Most useful would be a tank ammonia measurement at the time. .

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

Depends on the size of your tank and the amount Nitrate you need to remove.
It can be super cheap if you re-purpose an old Alk reactor or DIY one from scratch.

Here is one model, there are several you can choose from.
Sulfur Reactor

Thanks... I could use that denitrator with GFO or Phosphate-E for nutrient export
I was going with refugoum first but the space was only 16 gallons and wouldn't be big enough for 240 gallons
someone told me it needs to be at least 10% of total water vol and triton says too
but i might still do fuge if i can get a small chaeto reactor to work with the main fuge i still dont know yet

 

[Belgian Anthias]

IMO - Organic matter that will be mineralised by anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria using sulphur compounds (and elementary sulphur) as electron acceptor (example) plus DNRA bacteria ( Dissimilatory Nitrate Reduction to Ammonium ) (example)(wikipedia)

Sincerely Lasse

Does it? How?

Perhaps there is a translation issue on what raising the C:N ratio means. Are you claiming it means raising C relative to N, or raises N relative to C?

The way you wrote it, it seems to claim that dosing amino acids increases C relative to N.

How do you propose that happens? The C:N ratio in amino acids is lower than the ratio in ordinary seawater (that is, less C and more N in amino acids than in seawater).

Let's explore that claim, which is obviously incorrect at face value.

Suppose that the aquarium is at the standard Redfield ratio of about C:N ratio typical of the ocean at about 6.6:1

What is the C:N ratio in amino acids?

Here's a list:
alanine C:N = 3:1
valine 5:1
isoleucine 6:1
leucine 6:1
methionine 5:1
phenylalanine 9:1
tyrosine 9:1
tryptophan 11:2 = 5.5:1
serine 3:1
threonine 4:1
asparagine 4:2 = 2:1
glutamine 5:1 = 2.5;1
cysteine 3:1
glycine 2:1
proline 5:1
glutamic acid 5:1
aspartic acid 4:1
lysine 6:2 = 3:1
histidine 6:3 = 2:1
arginine 6:4 = 1.5;1

As you can see, only two amino acids have a C/N ratio higher than the redfield ratio, so unless your tank is skewed from the redfield ratio, or you only dose those two amino acids, i do not see a basis for the claim that adding amino acids raises the C/N ratio.

Thank you for the info! Amino acids normally are delivered by the protein in food and food is considered to be 50% carbon. What would be the purpose of adding pure amino-acids? Or produced to create protein. What is the effect of adding free ammino accids?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thanks... I could use that denitrator with GFO or Phosphate-E for nutrient export
I was going with refugoum first but the space was only 16 gallons and wouldn't be big enough for 240 gallons
someone told me it needs to be at least 10% of total water vol and triton says too
but i might still do fuge if i can get a small chaeto reactor to work with the main fuge i still dont know yet

A denitrator can easily be transformed into a good BADES biofilm reactor, if it is big enough.
A refugium can be used for BADES rolls, for exporting nitrogen, and for to obtain full control over the nitrogen level and the nitrogen removal rate. With a 16 gal REFUGE one can turn the system into a very effective bio-filter using BADES or and use the refuge to manage the nutrient content by cultivating bio-mass using modified F2 media, (for nitrogen and or phosphorus or any other nutrient targetted) Such a fuge combination can be used for cultivating food or and for to export the target nutrient(s), as desired.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Maybe - maybe not - could be true if you only calculate that a water from a reef aquarium have the sam organic content as free oceanic water. A small ecosystem like an aquarium is could be another question IMO. It depends - IMO - of the husbandry of the reef tank

The situation in a denitrator will be completely different from the situation in the tank. if an anoxic kept sulphur denitrator is used for lowering a high nitrate level in the beginning there will be enough nitrate available. An anoxic kept denitrator, the flow is managed in the function of the oxygen content in the influent which will stay +- the same, and most users target 0 nitrates in the effluent. In the beginning, a high autotrophic nitrate reduction rate is achieved by which most of the provided media will be autotrophically active and growing. The level descends and less nitrate is entered while keeping the same flow, 0 nitrate in the effluent. Less nitrate will become available and the autotrophic family will not grow anymore; when they start to die off the heterotrophic anaerobic remineralization rate will increase, also using nitrate, till nitrate is used up, As seawater is a good sulfate source, sulfate is unlimited available. HS and ammonia are produced,still with 0 nitrates in the effluent.

Using BADES all the above is avoided.


In most cases - I think its true that the contribution of NH3/NH4 from fish and other aquatic animals is higher than the NH3/NH4 contribution from bacterial mineralisation (if you exclude the aminofication from NO3 done by bacteria with DNRA capability - they can complicates the analysis significantly). This thoughts is based on the fact that around 80 % of the N from the eaten food non used for build up of fish (and other aquatic animals) biomass will escape to the water in form of NH3/NH4 through the gills. however - it remains 20 % in the form of pop and it will be mineralised into NH3/NH4 with help of heterotrophic bacteria (aerobes and anaerobes does not matter - the aerobic heterotrophic bacteria does the job faster but both types excrete NH3/NH4. We should also consider that in this type of filter (slow flowing anaerobic filter) will a build up of organic matter (from food and from earlier bacteria growth) be rather large with time.

The above calculation is based on no spill of food - no overfeeding at all. The fact that most aquarium will be overfeed complicate things but much of it (especially in FO tanks - there the need of denitrification filters are more common than in reef tanks) will be processed by bacterial mineralisation.

Now some thought that´s maybe is far above my pay level (over my incompetence level ) and just speculation and general thoughts.

Maybe @Belgian Anthias is right that this (NH3/NH4 production of anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria) process is more troubling in a autotrophic based sulphur "de"nitrification filter compared with a normal heterotropic based denitrification process. However - I have in an sludge based anaerobic reactor measured NH3/NH4 levels in the middle of the reactor 200 higher than the content in both the ingoing and the the outgoing water! (fresh water and in a waste water treatment plant) The ingoing water content NO3 too - the outgoing water not - there was clearly denitrification going on. The reactor had run undisturbed for nearly 10 years at that time.

I never have said anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria process is more troubling in a autotrophic based sulphur "de"nitrification filter compared with a normal heterotropic based denitrification process. In a sulphur denitrator the heterotrophic activities are limited to the available biomass to remineralise. As bio-mass production and organic carbon availability are a lot lower the risks for sulfate reduction is also lower.

As an heterotrophic denitrator produces a lot more biomass, must be fed organic carbon to continue to function and must be kept anoxic to function well, the risk for sulfate reduction is a lot higher as in a sulphur based denitrator. The produced HS and ammonia is from remineralized biomass and the use of sulfate due to nitrate starvation. In a sulfur denitrator only the dying autotrophic biomass will be used up to feed the heterotrophic anaerobic remineralization processes. At a low nitrate level most nitrate may be removed heterotrophiccally when using an anoxic kept sulfur denitrator. In such an environment +- 15% of nitrate may be reduced by DNRA producing ammonia. Still 0 nitrate in the affluent!

What´s Belgian Anthias seems to focus on is that when the NO3 in the water will be near 0 - the reactor turning from being a autotrophic "de"nitrification reactor to be a heterotrophic anaerobic reactor.

If the effluent does not contain nitrate one has no control over nitrate availability in the reactor!

Correct, it will, because the nitrate availability will go down as the level decends and the flow is kept stable to keep the reactor anoxic. The effluent nitrate content will stay 0. And we do not have a sulphur denitrator any more as very little nitrate is reduced by the BADES process at a low nitrate level if the flow is managed in the function of the oxygen content to keep the reactor anoxic.

Using BADES the flow is managed in the function of the nitrate content, limiting sulfate reduction. As nitrate is still available all produced HS will be removed by the same bacteria while reducing nitrate.

The autotrophic sulphur bacteria will in some or another way take energy from the reduction process and competes out the heterotrophic denitrification bacteria (lack of DOC - however this is high above my level because reduction processes normally not gain energy - as I understand - they demand energy).

Not at all, as the cultivated autotrophic bacteria using elemental sulfur only can make use of HS if nitrate is available, as this is not the case they will be remineralized by heterotrophs using sulfate, producing ammonia and HS. One must be aware in an anoxic kept denitrator very little nitrate is entered at low nitrate levels.

However in an anaerobic process without NO3 - the heterotrophic bacteria has to rely on other sources of electron acceptors in the cell metabolism. Next stage will favour the bacteria that use sulphur (sulphur compounds) as electron acceptors in the metabolism - leaving hydrogen sulphide as a waste (instead of N2 when other bacteria can use NO3 as electron acceptor) Maybe not need to say that a sulphur based reactor is high in just sulphur . But in regardless if the heterotrophic bacteria use oxygen (aerobic processes), NO3, sulphur compounds, hydrogen or other compounds (anaerobic processes) as electron acceptors - their hunt for carbon (in the organic matter) will mineralise organic N into NH3/NH4.


The cultivated bacteria T. denitrificans are able to reduce sulphur compounds following both pathways, aerobically and anaerobically but they only can use HS and elemental sulfur following the anaerobic pathway. There are only 3 known species which are able to reduce HS and elemental sulfur using nitrate. ref: https://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:thiobacillus_denitrificans

IMO - the concern that a classic sulphur based "de"nitrification reactor can turn to produce both NH3/NH4 and H2S is real.

However if the production of NH3/NH4 is negative in the long run or not - I will lean to see it as a positive effect for the all over growth of a reef aquarium. In FO - it can be different. Will it during normal conditions produce a toxic NH3 spike or not? Probably not.

However - my observations and measurements at the wastewater plant I worked at back in the 90:ties indicate that high amount of NH3/NH4 can be trapped in the middle of an anaerobic reactor and what´s happens if the flow will rise through the reactor. We did this observations for a lot of years and used ion selective NH3 probes in the analyse work.

Will the production of H2S be negative. IMO if the H2S will come out in a water with lot of oxygen - minor problems - however at low oxygen concentrations even i the free tank water - it can be deadly

We are not talking about a BATCH reactor, in which the HRT and processes are managed completely differently. Also, the parameters for the end product are completely different.

If H2S is produced in seawater, in a reef tank, a very high level of HS is present. In a sulphur denitrator this happens at a limited flow rate, even at this high level the risk is minimal.

Using a BADESS all this can be avoided.

But as stated above - I´m not sure that is always a true statement in a reef aquarium - I looks like me and @Belgian Anthias play in the same part of the court in this case

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Not at all, as the cultivated autotrophic bacteria using elemental sulfur only can make use of HS if nitrate is available, as this is not the case they will be remineralized by heterotrophs using sulfate, producing ammonia and HS. One must be aware in an anoxic kept denitrator very little nitrate is entered at low nitrate levels.

They are autotrophic - it means that they can´t get energy from organic matter. They need to get energy from somewhere else. Photosynthetic autotroph gets their energy from light, Chemoautotrophs like nitrification bacteria gets their energy from the oxidation process (NH3/NH3 have more bound energy compared with NO2 an NO2 have more bound energy than NO3) However where the autotrophic conversion of NO3 into N2 take its energy from- I have no idea. Normal heterotrophic denitrification bacteria gets it energy from organic matter as we. Maybe they get their energy from oxidizing elementary S to sulfate (SO2) with help of the oxygen bound in NO3 - but I really do not know but want to know.

We are not talking about a BATCH reactor, in which the HRT and processes are managed completely differently. Also, the parameters for the end product are completely different.

It was not a batch process I referred to - it was a continuous flow reactor (3 m3/hour) that was connected with a feed back loop with nitrified water.

As an heterotrophic denitrator produces a lot more biomass, must be fed organic carbon to continue to function and must be kept anoxic to function well

No it must not be feed with external organic carbon in a recirculated system if most produced sludge will be looped back to the anaerobic reactors. I was constructing 5 different systems that works very well with this principle. The anaerobic reactors produce sugar and other DOC:s that feed the denitrification bacteria with DOC for fast denitrification.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you for the info! Amino acids normally are delivered by the protein in food and food is considered to be 50% carbon. What would be the purpose of adding pure amino-acids? Or produced to create protein. What is the effect of adding free ammino accids?

Many folks use amino acids as a source of nitrogen, especially in low nutrient systems. There are many commercial brands.

For example:

Two Little Fishies -

AcroPower
Amino Acid Formula for SPS Corals
AcroPower supplies amino acids that corals need to build their skeletal architecture. Like other cnidaria, corals have a special ability to uptake dissolved amino acids across their entire surface. Closed system aquariums with protein skimming and other ULN (ultra-low nutrient) filtration methods deplete amino acids that are vitally important for coral health. Corals become more colorful within days due to the extension of the growing margins when AcroPower is used

 

[NO3]

Hello all,
I purchased some new fish this past Saturday. I bought a Pearlscale Butterfly, Copperband Butterfly and Coral Beauty Angel. The fish are about 2-3 inches long. They are all swimming nicely together and my XXL eel just lets them swim by with no harm. I just did a water test with my Salifret test kits and here are the results from my display tank. I have a reading of .5 - 1 for NO2 and 5 - 10 for my NO3. I tested the water coming out of the SD and there was no NO2 but there was a significant reading of NO3, it was between 10-25.

I has my SD fully open but now I have it at a fast drip. Am I correct in doing this or should I just leave it open and let the SD "catch up" on getting my reading back to zero. Any help is always appreciated, thank you.

NO3

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A reef aquarium has a very low nitrogen production and nitrogen management should not be a problem as nitrogen considered not needed can be exported easily. Compared to modern aquaculture systems supporting> 80kg bioload/1000lI, managing the nitrogen content of a high nutrient mixed reef by using a simple bio-filter is not difficult a all.

It is about using elemental sulfur, the BADES process, which gives the ability to avoid the need for anoxic conditions and cause nitrate starvation (sulfate reduction) in the closed environment of a reactor. It is about the ability to manage the nitrogen removal rate, as desired by the user, at a high to low nitrate level, and keep the nitrate level at the desired level by removing daily the daily nitrogen overproduction considered not needed. Removing daily 2ppm daily nitrate production having a level of 20ppm or at the level of 1ppm, knowing the incoming water contains +- 6ppm oxygen, using BADES this is easy. It can NOT be done using a carbon-based reactor or any anoxic kept denitrator.

The carbon is retrieved by the Calvin cycle and the use of enzymes called RuBisCo.
T.denitrificans, responsible for BADES, is one of the tree species able to use sulfur compounds and nitrate as an oxygen source, producing N2. They are able to use both pathways, aerobically and anaerobically, and have the ability to make use of both RuBisCo I and RuBisCo II which makes them unique. They do NOT need anoxic conditions to survive and prosper. T.d. need nitrate using an anaerobic pathway! That is why 0 nitrate in the effluent is NOT a target using BADES. T.d. do NOT need anoxic conditions to make use of an anaerobic pathway and reduce nitrate, they may change from pathway as needed, in Oxygen Minimum Zones ( OMZ). T.d. is not photo-sensitive. ref: https://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:bio-chemie:thiobacillus_denitrificans

Photosensitive bacteria have one of both photosystems, with the only exemption of cyano's which have connected both Photosystems I and II, including the very small oxygen-producing system, the ability to steal electrons from water, producing oxygen, also called the Manganese cluster, 4 atoms manganese, and 1 atom calcium interconnected by a network of oxygen atoms. (V. Yachandra 2006) (Nick Lane 2008) A normal remineralizing and nitrifying biofilm does contain photosensitive bacteria.
About how a discussion about reef aquaria can lead to the source of life and the solution to our energy problem. Besides reef aquaria, the search for the source of life is a hobby of mine. Solving the Manganese cluster will solve the energy problem and will make you a very rich man.

All photosystems in plants, algae, symbodinium, are an evolution of cyano.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hello all,
I purchased some new fish this past Saturday. I bought a Pearlscale Butterfly, Copperband Butterfly and Coral Beauty Angel. The fish are about 2-3 inches long. They are all swimming nicely together and my XXL eel just lets them swim by with no harm. I just did a water test with my Salifret test kits and here are the results from my display tank. I have a reading of .5 - 1 for NO2 and 5 - 10 for my NO3. I tested the water coming out of the SD and there was no NO2 but there was a significant reading of NO3, it was between 10-25.

I has my SD fully open but now I have it at a fast drip. Am I correct in doing this or should I just leave it open and let the SD "catch up" on getting my reading back to zero. Any help is always appreciated, thank you.

NO3

What do you mean by fully open? How long was it fully open? How long is it at a fast drip? The volume of sulfur and calcium carbonate used? TOTAL System volume?
Was the water tested when the reactor was fully open or after it was returned to drip rate? Ammonia in the effluent and aquarium?

if the reactor has been fully open for a few weeks the reactor has been turned into a normal biofilter. Downsizing the flow rate suddenly will kill most aerobic remineralizing bacteria producing a lot of bio-waste and reducing or removing the nitrification capacity involved in a moment you have increased the bioload considerably and will need a much higher carrying capacity. What do you think?

As it is too late for slowly downsizing the flow rate and the harm is done it may take some time to reinstall the autotrophic carrying capacity needed.
As far as I can overshow the situation I advise adding some organic carbon daily, to support the carrying capacity, to reduce ammonium, and to prevent a so-called "new tank syndrome situation". This advice is based on the assumption a lot of ammonium is produced which can not be reduced at the moment. In my opinion, the present condition may be considered to be an emergency situation as long the ammonium situation is not solved or and known.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Holy cow, I am starting to doubt this process and scientific reasoning altogether. How long do these things take to cycle? Aquamaxx has me triggered because they are telling me these things should be cycled by week 2 and that my output having high NITRITES (not nitrates) after 4 weeks isn't normal.

Should I be concerned that this thing is just taking up space under my tank and it's all a myth if I still don't have it cycled after 4 weeks?

Lowering nitrates is the single most difficult thing in this hobby without a doubt. My god what a job this is...

Maybe I can make my money back by making an epic youtube video of me throwing this TS-2 off the 5th story of my parking garage at work.

I think for giggles I am going to dump 5 full bottles of mb7 in my tank and see what happens. I don't know what else to do.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Holy cow, I am starting to doubt this process and scientific reasoning altogether. How long do these things take to cycle? Aquamaxx has me triggered because they are telling me these things should be cycled by week 2 and that my output having high NITRITES (not nitrates) after 4 weeks isn't normal.

Should I be concerned that this thing is just taking up space under my tank and it's all a myth if I still don't have it cycled after 4 weeks?

Lowering nitrates is the single most difficult thing in this hobby without a doubt. My god what a job this is...

Maybe I can make my money back by making an epic youtube video of me throwing this TS-2 off the 5th story of my parking garage at work.

I think for giggles I am going to dump 5 full bottles of mb7 in my tank and see what happens. I don't know what else to do.

Nitrate does not harm a thing and nitrate considered not needed is exported very easily using a simple biofilter, what should be the problem?


Nitrogen management starts with the C/N ratio of the food (protein content).

These "things" are able to export a lot of nitrate after an incubation time of +-2- 3 weeks.
Managing the nitrate content is having full control over the daily nitrate removal rate, easy using a BADESS.
Managing a BADES reactor following the MAAO method is not difficult if the reactor is NOT kept anoxic after startup and if it is big enough, at least 1% of the system volume. For a BADES reactor, and targetting 0 nitrate in the effluent, it is best to use a reactor with a closed-loop to create a moving bed at low flow rates ( high nitrate) BADES biofilm reactors do not need a closed-loop because the flow is high enough to create a slow-moving bed.

There is no need for a reactor for managing the nitrogen content making use of the BADES process. see BADES columns.

Active Management of nitrogen is very simple using a simple biofilter. Adding some elemental sulphur as a substrate for growing bacteria in a refuge is all that is needed.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

For those of you with a working denitrator...do you still see bubbles in the unit? No matter how much I try I always get small bubbles in the top if I shake it up a bit. Not a lot but they are always present...

Should these be free of ALL air bubbles in order to work? I can't possible tighten things any further and there are no water leaks anywhere near the unit.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

For those of you with a working denitrator...do you still see bubbles in the unit? No matter how much I try I always get small bubbles in the top if I shake it up a bit. Not a lot but they are always present...

Should these be free of ALL air bubbles in order to work? I can't possible tighten things any further and there are no water leaks anywhere near the unit.

The bubbles are most probably not air but produced gasses, CO2 and or N2, maybe some H2S, depending on the remineralization rate, heterotrophic/ autotrophic denitrification ratio. For this, an anoxic kept denitrator has a degassing device on top of the reactor.
Consuming free oxygen present in the influent to create anoxic conditions? Aerobic, and anaerobic remineralization processes produce gasses, CO2, N2, or and H2S. Using seawater, anaerobic remineralization uses mainly NO3 or and SO4 as an oxygen source.
The influent does contain >6ppm oxygen and ? ppm nitrate. 1 ppm O2 contains +- 2 x the usable oxygen content in 1ppm nitrate.

No, a BADES reactor does not need to be free of all oxygen to work. A BADES reactor still works fine having +- 2ppm O2 in the effluent ref: https://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:badess:start

 

[NO3]

For those of you with a working denitrator...do you still see bubbles in the unit? No matter how much I try I always get small bubbles in the top if I shake it up a bit. Not a lot but they are always present...

Should these be free of ALL air bubbles in order to work? I can't possible tighten things any further and there are no water leaks anywhere near the unit.

When staring the SD, you have to let the bubbles out every day. For the first 2 weeks, I’d let the bubbles out twice a day. Then every day. Letting bubbles out is part of the process but it’s not the main IMHO. The main thing is time and patience. Trust me, I am the most impatient person there is but you just have to be.

You will see phases that occur in the SD. The water inside the reactor will become cloudy, when you see that raise the drip rate and it will become clear after a day or so. Then test your water and if the readings are high, go back to the slower rate.

NO3