New sulfur denitrator working great!

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An anoxic environment is where sulfur denitrators thrive. I prefer -180mv to -300mv. If you want to advocate for another system then you should consider starting a thread for that.
My opinion this is misleading information. Only a few sulfur bacteria (3) are able to oxidize elemental sulfur using nitrate as a nitrogen source. Which sulfur bacteria able to use nitrate as a nitrogen source thrive at a pH range between 6 and 8? There is only one!! As it is only one, why not inform yourself about that one bacterium before telling people things found to be NOT true!! What sulfur bacterium able to use nitrate needs anoxic conditions to thrive? please add reference. I have no knowledge about such sulfur bacteria.

The US Geological Survey defines anoxic water as those with dissolved oxygen concentration of less than 0.5 milligrams per litre

Most heterotrophic denitrifiers ( not all) need anoxic conditions, they die in the presence of free oxygen. They do need organic waste to thrive. T. denitrificans, the sulfur bacterium we are talking about, may switch between an aerobic and anaerobic pathway depending of BOD; biological oxygen demand. They do not need anoxic conditions! Important is the fact they only can use elemental sulfur using their anaerobic pathway. They do not need anoxic conditions to use an anaerobic pathway, they change pathway depending of BOD and oxygen exchange rate of the moment. They thrive in oxygen transition zones.

We are talking about the same thing , the BADES process, using elemental sulfur to remove nitrate and we talk about the same bacteria who must do the job.
An other thing is using ORP. ORP reading is NOT the same as ORP. ORP reading reacts very slowly to ORP changes, changes in oxygen availability, from hours to days, depending of the equipment used? The ORP zone - 300 mv is for anaerobic remineralization, heterotrophic denitrification and sulfate reduction and usable in water cleaning plants. Can sufficient anaerobic autotrophic denitrification be achieved with an ORP reading in the water column of +100mv or +200mv? Depending on the supply, yes, why not? A negative ORP is definitely not necessary for a properly functioning BADES reactor after the reactor has been conditioned. ref MB ORP

WARNING!
Using the advise given may create a DANGEROUS situation and may end in creating a HS factory instead of a sulfur denitrator , Use ORP reading only if you know how ORP reading works.
I sincerely hope given information will not be followed up.

Determining the ANOXIC zone for managing a closed BIO-reactor in a closed seawater aquaculture system using ORP
If using ORP reading for a sulfur denitrator ( Why? )I advise to use a reading between +100 and - 50,

There is no need for expensive equipment only necessary because one is using it. if one does not use it it may not create problems and may not lead to human errors and misinformation about how to use it. Using expensive ORP reading for trying to create an anoxic situation which is not needed at all for the purpose.

For using autotrophic denitrification on elemental sulfur no reactor is needed. if one does not know how to manage a sulfur based reactor one does not use it, One does NOT need a reactor to make good use of the BADES process. Just add some elemental sulfur to the system, nature will do the rest. Try it out!!

There is no foundable reason for keeping a sulfur based denitrator in an anoxic state and risking creating a dangerous environment., just for removing safely stored nitrogen not harming a thing. If there is one good reason I would like to know what it is.
 
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BADES ( biological anaerobic denitrification using elemental sulfur) is a natural process, not an invention. It takes place everywhere in the aquarium, everywhere a biofilm may grow. I simply use the word BADES reactor instead of sulfur denitrator or sulfur reactor because reactors using the BADES process must NOT be kept in an anoxic state. To point out the difference of management and the big difference in practical use. I use the name BADES reactor for sulfur reactors operated as it was intended by those who introduced BADES for nitrogen management in marine systems and used it in public marine aquarium systems for decades. On this and other fora one mainly speaks about sulfur denitrators with the advise to keep the reactor in an anoxic state. Why?
A carbon based reactor should be kept in an anoxic state to work , a BADES based reactor works fine at much higher flow rates, keeping DO above 0.5ppm in the effluent.
The big difference between methods using the BADES proces are: using a sulfur denitrator the flow is manged in function of the oxygen content ( oxygen content of influent is always the same, +- 6-7ppm) and the flow is limited to keep the reactor in an anoxic state. Using a BADES reactor the flow is managed in function of the nitrate level and the nitrate to remove daily, keeping the level steady or to lower the level, as needed.

We do advise if using a BADES reactor to keep the nitrogen content of the effluent above 0, measurable.

A practical example:
A 1000 l system. The nitrate level is 50ppm, the daily nitrate overproduction is +- 1ppm. The target nitrate level is between 1 and 2 ppm.
To remove 1ppm daily having 50ppm in the water a flow of only 20l daily is needed to remove 1ppm, a bit more flow to lower the level slowly, as it should. About 140 ppm DO is entered daily. The level descends reaching 20 ppm. To be able to remove the same daily nitrate production the flow is increased to reach 50l/daily just to maintain the level at 20ppm, a bit more to lower the level. At this point +- 350ppm DO is entered daily. Assuming the reactor is big enough the level descends to 2 ppm by increasing the flow to 500l daily , flow needed to remove the same daily production of 1 ppm and keep the level steady at 2ppm. DO entered daily is increased to +- 3500 ppm.To lower the level from 2ppm to 1 ppm the daily flow must double to 1000l daily needing a BOD ( biological oxygen demand) of +-7000ppm daily to keep the reactor in an anoxic state ( <0.5ppmDO).
How this is done using a sulfur reactor with limited flow, sometimes equipped with flow regulation based on a negative ORP reading?
This easily can be done by using BADES as intended by the developers of the MAAO method ! Now we do not use tube reactors any more but MBR, moving bed reactors, eliminating the risk for tunneling.

If a high nitrate level is present we do advise to lower the level slowly. Sulfur denitrators are able to remove a high amount of nitrate having a high level available, creating a shock effect on nitrogen availability, alkalinity, pH, enz..

Using a BADES reactor the removal rate can be managed and adjusted to the daily nitrate overproduction to be remove daily, and a bit more if the level must decent. In case the removal rate does not only depends on the nitrate level available but mainly depends on the flow rate, DO entered and BOD ( biological oxygen demand, the oxygen consumption rate due to aerobic activities) see BADES bio-reactor.


We are not in a lab in where oxygen is removed by vacuum. Most research about denitrification capacity the results are retrieved using Lab tests in lab conditions. We are using a flow true system where oxygen is removed by BOD!.
Longouet tested it for over 7 years before transforming it for practical use in public marine aquaria. ref MB The MAAO system

A BADES reactor must be big enough for the aerobic activities being able to remove enough oxygen for anaerobic processes needed to remove nitrate to take place. BADES takes place in oxygen transition zones, bacteria switching over from an aerobic pathway to an anaerobic pathway, NOT needing anoxic conditions. It all depends on BOD!!!!

In fact a good BADES reactor is a good remineralization filter, removing DOC, also producing nitrate, nitrate used up within the reactor. In such a reactor a lot of CO2 is produced. The effluent always must be aerated properly before entering the system! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!
Such a reactor must be BIG ENOUGH, at least 1% of the system volume, depending on the daily nitrogen production to remove daily. The minimal volume can be calculated and depends on the daily amount of nitrogen to be removed and the desired nitrate level to be maintained. A basic rule is 1% of system volume for 1ppm daily, making it possible to maintain a nitrate level of +- 2ppm. Longouet used 1% having to remove a level of 50ppm and 2% above 50ppm which finally is about the same, It also takes into account the volume needed for the aerobic activities needed to maintain a low nitrate level having the same production.

The capacity of a BADES based denitrator is mainly based on BOD, its capacity to consume oxygen

This means a normal bio can be managed to become a good BADES based denitrification system, this without using a closed reactor. One just has to add some elemental sulfur to the filter bed. ( in the case the filterbed is crushed shells)

An easy way for using BADES is using BADES-rolls in a refuge see BADES columns. ref: MB BADESS
One can use as many rolls as needed. The refuge is well aerated, as it was a normal bio.

We advise to use at least the same volume of calcium carbonate based media as volume of sulfur used.

How one can manage a sulfur based system if one does not know the basics of the BADES process? .

I do not promote the use of BADES for removing a safely stored nitrogen reserve. There are better ways to do that, starting with creating a balance between reducers and producers, using AAM or ANM, active nutrient and nitrogen management.
Removing safely stored nitrogen using a sulfur denitrator kept anoxic by limiting the flow , the method used may contain a lot more risks for the system as the presence of nitrate ever has been proven to be, certainly in the hands of someone not knowing how and why! Using BADES as it was intended, not keeping the reactor anoxic, will eliminate most if not all risks and limit the factor of human error.

The sulfur pellets must be technical grade and not contain any pollution.

How and why using BADES

All info about BADES and BADES Systems are available in the reference mentioned above.


I do NOT promote the use of BADES for nitrogen management!!
Using BADES to remove harmless and safely stored usable nitrogen must only be considered if proper nitrogen management fails. In the case I do prefer the use of a BADES System considering other existing methods applicable for denitrification.
I do hope advise given is based on proper references, also if the references for some are incomprehensible. As long the adviser knows how and why, based on correct information or and personal experience based on that information.
We do provide all info in our wiki Makazi Baharini, BADESS. If the reader does not understand what it is all about, one should not use BADES. One can NOT use a BADES reactor as it was a automated device with an ON and OFF switch and a flow regulator valve, although a BADES reactor used properly will become self regulating, needing very little maintenance and adjustments once the desired level is reached. A good BADES reactor the same time also is a good bio-filter, all in the reactor produced nitrate can be removed. This must be taken in consideration because too much nitrogen may be exported. We do advise to keep the nitrate level at +- 1-2ppm, and reactor effluent nitrogen content measurable.

I do promote the use of AAM, active nutrient management, which includes nitrogen and carbon management, balancing producers and reducers, using bio-filter(s)

It does not seem remotely sensible to me to claim that sulfur denitrification takes place in every biofilm for the simple reason that there is not elemental sulfur all over reef tanks.

I’m not quibbling with the claim it is natural. Every process that every reefers uses for everything I can think of is just an expansion of a natural process that occurs somewhere in the ocean.
 
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Why using an expensive reactor?
Not everyone can or wants to build their own equipment. Some people will pay for convince as well. We all have different priorities in Our lives.

I think this question is like asking asking someone why they chose to purchase a Mercedes when a Honda will do the same job.
 
Not everyone can or wants to build their own equipment. Some people will pay for convince as well. We all have different priorities in Our lives.

I think this question is like asking asking someone why they chose to purchase a Mercedes when a Honda will do the same job.
Ok, like buying a car to go to the city and pay for parking when the bus stops before the door.
 
T.denitrificans, the bacterium responsible for denitrification using elemental sulfur, does not thrive in an anoxic kept denitrator for the simple reason in such conditions they have to compete with heterotrophic denitrifiers for their oxygen source, nitrate, a competion they can not win. They do thrive in oxygen transition zones where the competition is limited or non existing but in an anoxic kept reactor with very limited flow also the transition zone is very limited.
If we want to promote BADES, biological denitrification using elemental sulfur, creating anoxic conditions should be avoided!!!
if one uses a reactor to promote the BADES process, why keeping it anoxic? Why calling such anoxic reactor a sulfur denitrator? Because sulfur was added?
 
It does not seem remotely sensible to me to claim that sulfur denitrification takes place in every biofilm for the simple reason that there is not elemental sulfur all over reef tanks.

I’m not quibbling with the claim it is natural. Every process that every reefers uses for everything I can think of is just an expansion of a natural process that occurs somewhere in the ocean.

Sulfur based autotrophic denitrification is not limited to the presence of elemental sulfur! BADES is limited to the elemental sulfur produced due to sulfur based denitrification.
Sulfur based autotrophic denitrifcation takes place everywhere in the tank where a biofilm may grow, using H2S or and produced elemental sulfur. In an aquarium the natural capacity is very limited, mainly limited to the internal HS production. A normal biofilm removes +- 16% of of the nitrate produced by the biofilm, autotrophic + heterotrophic.

Adding elemental sulfur as a substrate for a biofilm will increase the autotrophic denitrification capacity drastically. if it is good or bad, that is an other discussion. Adding elemental sulfur one has very little control about the nitrogen removal rate. To have control we use it in a refuge or in a BADES reactor. Using a BADES reactor the nitrate removal rate and nitrate level can be managed as desired.

Putting a thin layer of sulfur pellets on the bottom of the sump ( in the dark) will show what I am talking about. Please have patience, it will take a few weeks for the biofilms to develop.

BADES can be used safely but only if one has control over the nitrogen removal rate. Putting sulfur pellets on the bottom of the sump the denitrification capacity can be managed by putting more or less, by managing the available space.
 
if i need a pump, what kind of pump would be a good fit?
Just a normal centrifugal pump having a daily flow of at least 2 times the system volume. By plumbing the pump in a closed loop with a divider valve the pump can deliver the flow desired without overheating because the pump will turn always at normal flow. The flow can be managed using the diverter valve. This way the reactor can be used as a denitrator but also as a normal BADES reactor or turned into a normal bio-reactor , without having to change a thing. A motor operated diverter valve can be automated based on a parameter as desired. Manual control of the diverter valve can be based on all known parameters.
 
Sulfur based autotrophic denitrifcation takes place everywhere in the tank where a biofilm may grow, using H2S or and produced elemental sulfur. In an aquarium the natural capacity is very limited, mainly limited to the internal HS production. A normal biofilm removes +- 16% of of the nitrate produced by the biofilm, autotrophic + heterotrophic.

OK, I understand what you now mean by a more expansive definition of sulfur-based denitrification, but that's not actually what you claimed:

"BADES ( biological anaerobic denitrification using elemental sulfur) is a natural process, not an invention. It takes place everywhere in the aquarium, everywhere a biofilm may grow."

Thus, your sentence there is, IMO, incorrect. Denitrification using elemental sulfur does not, IMO take place in every biofilm.
 
OK, I understand what you now mean by a more expansive definition of sulfur-based denitrification, but that's not actually what you claimed:

"BADES ( biological anaerobic denitrification using elemental sulfur) is a natural process, not an invention. It takes place everywhere in the aquarium, everywhere a biofilm may grow."

Thus, your sentence there is, IMO, incorrect. Denitrification using elemental sulfur does not, IMO take place in every biofilm.
No, it is not incorrect.
Where H2S is produced and used for sulfur based autotrophic denitrification, sulfate and elemental sulfur is produced, depending on the available HS/nitrate ratio, this means in a biofilm always some elemental sulfur is produced . Without nitpicking, BADES takes place everywhere a biofilm may grow. As it is not an invention, I can not claim it.
 
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No, it is not incorrect.
Where H2S is produced and used for sulfur based autotrophic denitrification, sulfate and elemental sulfur is produced, depending on the available HS/nitrate ratio, this means in a biofilm always some elemental sulfur is produced . Without nitpicking, BADES takes place everywhere a biofilm may grow. As it is not an invention, I can not claim it.

Do you have any evidence for your assertion the elemental sulfur is being produced and consumed in every biofilm in a reef aquarium?

Not sure why you keep mentioning it’s not an invention. I don’t recall saying it was.
 
Do you have any evidence for your assertion the elemental sulfur is being produced and consumed in every biofilm in a reef aquarium?

Not sure why you keep mentioning it’s not an invention. I don’t recall saying it was.
My assertion or yours?
Do you need evidence ? About a very essential natural bio-chemical process taking place everywhere?
You are , how one does say it in English? Quibbling? Nitpicking? About the word " every"? Why? What scientific purpose is served by this?
Please stick to the essence of the matter.

You do know all information and references are available for consultation in the wiki Makazi Baharini " BADESS". Why asking?
 
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My assertion or yours?
Do you need evidence ? About a very essential natural bio-chemical process taking place everywhere?
You are , how one does say it in English? Quibbling? Nitpicking? About the word " every"? Why? What scientific purpose is served by this?
Please stick to the essence of the matter.

You do know all information and references are available for consultation in the wiki Makazi Baharini " BADESS". Why asking?

I don’t see a reason to keep arguing with you, but I do not think some of your statements are correct.
 
I don’t see a reason to keep arguing with you, but I do not think some of your statements are correct.
What's the point of steering the discussion away from the facts and from the fact that your arguments regarding the facts are still the same. You make remarks that have led to the same conclusions in previous discussions on the same subject, and then, like a politician, you are nit-picking about a phrase used, a phrase that clearly wants to give a general picture without going into further detail. On the other hand, as a respected author of many articles on the marine aquarium, among other things, regarding the use of ORP, you do not find it necessary to respond to the spread of hazardous misinformation such as the ideal ORP reading for stimulating denitrification in a reactor should be -300mv.
If you don't want to argue with me, why are you responding to my responses knowing I'm not wrong as these discussions have already taken place on other occasions. I would like you to respond with comments that can contribute something.
My arguments are free of any economic or commercial interest and as you well know or may know by now they are based on thorough research on the subject before being published publicly .
You think that some explanation is not correct, I can accept that. As you know references can be consulted in our wiki.
If you have any questions regarding BADES , I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability based on the information available to everyone and which we have selflessly collected in our wiki.
Perhaps it can contribute to a better , simpler and safe use of sulfur to stimulate and increase the naturally present denitrification capacity in the seawater aquarium .

The original language of the wiki is Dutch. most references are in English some in French. Use a good translator tool. Translated articles available in English are NOT updated with the latest information. Happy reading:)
 
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What's the point of steering the discussion away from the facts and from the fact that your arguments regarding the facts are still the same. You make remarks that have led to the same conclusions in previous discussions on the same subject, and then, like a politician, you are nit-picking about a phrase used, a phrase that clearly wants to give a general picture without going into further detail.

Not a politician, a scientist. HUGE difference. Politicians say whatever they want and hope it sticks.

Yes, scientists nit pick. That's EXACTLY how science works. False claims or hyperbole to make a point, even if the underlying point is correct, are unacceptable to me.

My point was to ensure claims are justified. Not just the overall idea, such as that sulfur denitrators work.

I'm sorry if you do not like it, but I wont ignore things that are posted that I do not believe are correct. If you believe they are correct, then of course you should fire back.
 
Not a politician, a scientist. HUGE difference. Politicians say whatever they want and hope it sticks.

Yes, scientists nit pick. That's EXACTLY how science works. False claims or hyperbole to make a point, even if the underlying point is correct, are unacceptable to me.

My point was to ensure claims are justified. Not just the overall idea, such as that sulfur denitrators work.

I'm sorry if you do not like it, but I wont ignore things that are posted that I do not believe are correct. If you believe they are correct, then of course you should fire back.
Not exactly, a politician often starts nitpicking during a discussion when the proof of him being wrong comes up.

What claim I made about BADES must be justified to the readers. ?
What do you not believe?
Do you have doubts about biofilms may grow almost everywhere in an aquarium? Do you have doubts about BADES taking place in biofilms where HS is produced in the presence of nitrate? Do you have doubts about HS being produced in nitrifying biofilms? Nitrifying biofilms do not grow everywhere but do you have doubts about BADES also takes place in zones where anaerobic remineralisation takes place this if nitrate or nitrite is available. if no doubts, BADES is taking place ALMOST everywhere in a marine aquarium. You do not believe it, so be it; it will not changes a thing about BADES being an essential process in biofilms growing ALMOST anywhere and everywhere in an aquarium.

You made the claim BADES can not take place everywhere because elemental sulfur is not present everywhere. I admit I can not prove the claim made is not founded because "everywhere" can not scientifically be defined? But what goes for me also goes for you " False claims or hyperbole to make a point, even if the underlying point is correct, are unacceptable to me"
 
Not exactly, a politician often starts nitpicking during a discussion when the proof of him being wrong comes up.

What claim I made about BADES must be justified to the readers. ?
What do you not believe?
Do you have doubts about biofilms may grow almost everywhere in an aquarium? Do you have doubts about BADES taking place in biofilms where HS is produced in the presence of nitrate? Do you have doubts about HS being produced in nitrifying biofilms? Nitrifying biofilms do not grow everywhere but do you have doubts about BADES also takes place in zones where anaerobic remineralisation takes place this if nitrate or nitrite is available. if no doubts, BADES is taking place ALMOST everywhere in a marine aquarium. You do not believe it, so be it; it will not changes a thing about BADES being an essential process in biofilms growing ALMOST anywhere and everywhere in an aquarium.

You made the claim BADES can not take place everywhere because elemental sulfur is not present everywhere. I admit I can not prove the claim made is not founded because "everywhere" can not scientifically be defined? But what goes for me also goes for you " False claims or hyperbole to make a point, even if the underlying point is correct, are unacceptable to me"

Proof of me being wrong? I’ve been wrong about a tremendous number of things in my life, but I don’t recall ever being wrong about anything relating to sulfur denitrators.

Let’s ignore my opinion for now, and assume I’m ignorant of anything relating to sulfur in a reef tank.

You claimed that every biofilm in a reef tank produces elemental sulfur. Why?

What is the evidence that every biofilm in a reef tank produces elemental sulfur?

what is the evidence that many biofilms in a reef tank produce elemental sulfur?

what is the evidence that ANY biofilms in a reef tank produce elemental sulfur?

Note that I am not asking if there is a biofilm somewhere in some unusual part of the ocean that produces elemental sulfur (like a hydrothermal vent, or a cave, or a on a metal oil well pipe, or deep in sediments) but some evidence that every biofilm on a coral reef does, or that many biofilms in a coral reef do would be nice to see and would support your suggestion.
 
OMG everyone of his posts just repeat the same thing in every thread about filtration. The links that he provided are horrible and try googling bades and it's all technical jargon. Belgian Anthias if you actually use this method in your tank post pictures instead of shilling your EU website. Show us how great it is doing don't lecture us, or tell us all the answers are on your site.
 
OMG everyone of his posts just repeat the same thing in every thread about filtration. The links that he provided are horrible and try googling bades and it's all technical jargon. Belgian Anthias if you actually use this method in your tank post pictures instead of shilling your EU website. Show us how great it is doing don't lecture us, or tell us all the answers are on your site.
Last time I checked this thread was about how someone's "New sulfur denitrator working great!" and had nothing to do with other methods. I am still confused how this got off track.

If I were someone that wanted to discuss another method you would think that they would post their own thread on that topic.
 
That's the problem he literally jacks threads and then copy pastas the same thing over and over again and when people ask him to explain it better he links his euro trash website in Dutch so you have to register to see it but he will tell you how awesome and easy it is without actually showing you it. *** he figuratively called RHF an ignorant for not reading his blog posts in Dutch. I just want to see the set up. I've posted my disgusting skimmer and fuge why can't he post his setup? His personal tank can't be copy written unless poor eurotrash really don't have property rights. Yes I said that purposely to provoke him
 

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