New tank setup- question

[tlanz]

Folks, I'm new to the reef hobby. I set up a 75 gallon tank a couple weeks ago and have been testing water every couple of days. The tank had 5 damsels in it for the past week or so. 3 days ago my ammonia levels which had spiked to a .4 dropped to 0 and I haven't seen any ammonia since. Nitrite levels are also 0 and nitrates are reading between 2&5. ph is at 8.2. With ammonia gone and no sign of nitrites can I assume the basic cycle has taken place? I lost two of the five damsels in the past couple of days. Is this common that they would have lived through the ammonia spike but die once it drops?

Also in the past couple of days I'm seeing a brownish growth on my crushed coral base. Is this common? Too much lighting? My canopy has 6 t5 bulbs - 3 white, 2 blue, 1 purple and a new 24 inch LED sitting in the center of the hood 48" hood.

I was thinking of performing a 10 gallon water change tomorrow and adding a couple of fish and soft corals next week.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Kershaw]

I would go buy pure ammonia. Remove the fish you have. Raise ammonia to 2 and check 24 hours later if it is zero, cycle is stable for fish.

 

[tlanz]

I would go buy pure ammonia. Remove the fish you have. Raise ammonia to 2 and check 24 hours later if it is zero, cycle is stable for fish.

Thanks for the quick response. Appreciate the help.

 

[ndrwater]

I would hold off on adding anything else until you know things are stable enough to keep them alive.
Unless you added a Nitrifying bacteria culture (Dr. Tims etc) the chances of a full cycle taking place in such a short time period is rare. I would also hold off on the water change for now.

As far as the "Brownish growth" on your crushed coral, that is a good sign. Algae is starting to grow.
Now... Couple VERY important things to take away from this are:
1. GO SLOW!!! a very old adage in this hobby is nothing good happens fast. Even though you have the itch to add more salty friends, know that the slower you go, the more successful you will be.
2 Adding corals to a brand new tank is a recipe for an empty wallet and a broken spirit. See #1 and continue to refer to #1 often
3. Being through the initial cycle does NOT mean established. An established tank is IMO MINIMUM 1 year beyond the initial cycle.

You can jumpstart things by adding a nitrifying bacteria culture, established live rock, established media etc, but thet doesn't mean that you can jumpstart success by adding a bunch of fish or corals right away.

 

[Slayvoff]

is it safe to use damsels to help cycle a tank? what if they are carrying a disease and the DT then gets infected?

 

[ndrwater]

is it safe to use damsels to help cycle a tank? what if they are carrying a disease and the DT then gets infected?

Fish get infected by fish diseases, tanks don't.
But that said, many types of marine parasites do have part of their life cycle that is off of the host fish. That is the reason you often see people talk about "going fallow" for 76+ days. that is beyond the life cycle of parasites like Ich. No host, the parasites life cycle is broken.

 

[Slayvoff]

Fish get infected by fish diseases, tanks don't.
But that said, many types of marine parasites do have part of their life cycle that is off of the host fish. That is the reason you often see people talk about "going fallow" for 76+ days. that is beyond the lyfe cycle of parasites like Ich. No host, the parasites life cycle is broken.

So if you use damsels to cycle, do you need to go fallow for 76 days after removing them to ensure any possible parasites are dead in case the damsels had ich?

 

[ndrwater]

And... FWIW, using a fish like damsels is the old way of doing things. More common these days is using an ammonia source (as mentioned above) and adding a Nirtifying bacteria culture like Dr. Tims to get things started.
Sacrificing a few damsels is now generally frowned upon as you are effectively killing the animals that we are ultimately trying to keep alive.

 

[ndrwater]

So if you use damsels to cycle, do you need to go fallow for 76 days after removing them to ensure any possible parasites are dead in case the damsels had ich?

The simple answer is yes. Personally, I wouldn't use damsels to cycle a tank. There are many other more humane ways to do it.
Besides, most damsels turn out to be ******s, and can be a b!tch to catch later...

 

[Slayvoff]

Gotcha. I bought the Red Sea Mature Pro Kit for when I get my tank wet and am ready to cycle which I assume is the same concept as Dr. Tims.

 

[ndrwater]

It is. There are many brands out there that are essentially bacteria in a bottle. Dr Tims is the one that popped into my head first

 

[ndrwater]

Another thing of note.
Using bacteria in a bottle is a good thing. Gets things moving in the right direction. But..... There will only be enough bacteria surviving to sustain whatever amount of ammonia is being produced. As an example, You could use 1000 times the recommended dosage of the aforementioned bacteria in a bottle and drop high ammonia levels to darn near zero very quickly, but if having a low bio load initially, most of that expensive bacteria will die off. Only time and adding new friends slowly, allowing the seeded bacteria to ESTABLISH will thing become truly stable.
Also note that if you added that same 1000 times dosage to a tank stuffed with fish from day one (like they do on tv) is a recipe for disaster. Most of the fish you see on tv in the "Instant Tank" die very soon after as things aren't established enough to sustain them. Now if you were willing to bump bottles of bacteria in daily for a year..... maybe instant tanks would work...

 

[Slayvoff]

Another thing of note.
Using bacteria in a bottle is a good thing. Gets things moving in the right direction. But..... There will only be enough bacteria surviving to sustain whatever amount of ammonia is being produced. As an example, You could use 1000 times the recommended dosage of the aforementioned bacteria in a bottle and drop high ammonia levels to darn near zero very quickly, but if having a low bio load initially, most of that expensive bacteria will die off. Only time and adding new friends slowly, allowing the seeded bacteria to ESTABLISH will thing become truly stable.
Also note that if you added that same 1000 times dosage to a tank stuffed with fish from day one (like they do on tv) is a recipe for disaster. Most of the fish you see on tv in the "Instant Tank" die very soon after as things aren't established enough to sustain them. Now if you were willing to bump bottles of bacteria in daily for a year..... maybe instant tanks would work...

Makes sense. My plan will be to add in a pair of clowns first. In order to not waste the bacteria in a bottle, would it be best to time it so that the kit runs out around the same time my fish will be done with QT and ready to enter the DT? Then they'll act as the ammonia producers and bacteria won't die off.

 

[ndrwater]

yes and no. Adding a stable source of ammonia while using the bacteria in a bottle is necessary to keep the bacteria doing their thing. An easy and cheap way of doing this is adding a raw table shrimp to the tank while fish-less.
The decaying shrimp (sounds gross, but it works) is your constant and stable source of ammonia to feed the beneficial bacteria. by the time you run the course of the bacteria in a bottle, you shouldn't have much problem adding a couple of clowns.
Now...... the quarantine tank is a great idea, but you have the same problem with nitrifying bacteria. Unless you have an established biological filter in your QT, you are going to have the exact same problems you would in the display. Many a new and old reefer have killed a fish in QT because of a lack of biological filter in the QT. Daily water changes can, and often do, help with ammonia buildup in qt. But, if the need for therapeutic levels of meds are required to treat the ailing fish, large daily water changes are counter productive.

 

[Slayvoff]

yes and no. Adding a stable source of ammonia while using the bacteria in a bottle is necessary to keep the bacteria doing their thing. An easy and cheap way of doing this is adding a raw table shrimp to the tank while fish-less.
The decaying shrimp (sounds gross, but it works) is your constant and stable source of ammonia to feed the beneficial bacteria. by the time you run the course of the bacteria in a bottle, you shouldn't have much problem adding a couple of clowns.
Now...... the quarantine tank is a great idea, but you have the same problem with nitrifying bacteria. Unless you have an established biological filter in your QT, you are going to have the exact same problems you would in the display. Many a new and old reefer have killed a fish in QT because of a lack of biological filter in the QT. Daily water changes can, and often do, help with ammonia buildup in qt. But, if the need for therapeutic levels of meds are required to treat the ailing fish, large daily water changes are counter productive.

I see, so get the tank wet, add a raw dead shrimp and begin the bacteria in a bottle program. Once the program is done and the tank is cycled, as tested by adding some pure ammonia and making sure it drops to 0 ppm, I can keep the shrimp in the tank until ready to add the clowns.

As for a QT, I was reading that people will "seed" their QT filter with biospira that will act as biological filter?

 

[ndrwater]

Mostly...
Lets see if I can clarify a couple of things.
The raw shrimp is your ammonia source. No need to add more ammonia after the initial cycle. Just keep an eye on the display by testing Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate often. Testing regularly is a good habit to get into for later down the line.
Biospira is another brand of bacteria in a bottle. So, yes, "seeding" a biological filter with Biospira will produce the same results we have been talking about. To be clear, Biospira is NOT a biological filter in and of itself, but a culture to establish a biological filter. Using something a simple as a sponge filter (think those things bubbling away in the corner of the fresh water tanks in many LFS) as a biological filter is very effective.

 

[ndrwater]

Many an experienced reefer will keep something like a sponge filter in an area of their sump to establish the beneficial bacteria on the sponge for use in a quarantine system. That way alleviating the need for bacteria in a bottle.

 

[Slayvoff]

Many an experienced reefer will keep something like a sponge filter in an area of their sump to establish the beneficial bacteria on the sponge for use in a quarantine system. That way alleviating the need for bacteria in a bottle.

Am I able to set up DT and QT at same time using the bacteria in a bottle, or do I need to do as discussed with the DT and put a sponge in the sump to seed and then once the tank is cycled, use the sponge to put into the QT filter and then I can add fish to the QT?

Sorry this is all pretty confusing as a first timer

 

[ndrwater]

You absolutely can establish both using the same methods. Being prepared is half the battle. The other half is asking questions to things you haven't learned about yet.
Trust me when I say there would be a lot more success and a lot less failures if people asked more questions instead of assuming.
Sounds like you have the right mindset to be successful long term. There are tons of people on this forum who are ready and willing to help someone new to the hobby.
Keep the questions coming!!

Also I reread my diatribe on post #16. I have edited it to make more sense as my original post contained an error.

 

[tlanz]

I would hold off on adding anything else until you know things are stable enough to keep them alive.
Unless you added a Nitrifying bacteria culture (Dr. Tims etc) the chances of a full cycle taking place in such a short time period is rare. I would also hold off on the water change for now.

As far as the "Brownish growth" on your crushed coral, that is a good sign. Algae is starting to grow.
Now... Couple VERY important things to take away from this are:
1. GO SLOW!!! a very old adage in this hobby is nothing good happens fast. Even though you have the itch to add more salty friends, know that the slower you go, the more successful you will be.
2 Adding corals to a brand new tank is a recipe for an empty wallet and a broken spirit. See #1 and continue to refer to #1 often
3. Being through the initial cycle does NOT mean established. An established tank is IMO MINIMUM 1 year beyond the initial cycle.

You can jumpstart things by adding a nitrifying bacteria culture, established live rock, established media etc, but thet doesn't mean that you can jumpstart success by adding a bunch of fish or corals right away.

Thank you for the advice. I have read about patience quiet a bit in this hobby, I just wasn't sure where to draw the line. I'll wait a while longer before adding anything else to the tank until stable. In all the reading I've done the past couple of months I've seen suggestions for what are likely fist additions to a new tank but no advice on the pacing of adding new specimens. I'll follow your advice and take it slow.