New Tank Syndrome??

[Manda0597]

How long does New Tank Syndrome last?? Tank was started in March and 2 of the original fish are still alive. We have lost probably 6 fish no to include a beautiful angel fish this morning. My Yellow Watchman Goby looks white almost and Damsel is swimming at the bottom. We religiously do weekly water changes. 5 gallons for a 36 gallon tank, and clean the filter out once a month. I have a Seachem ammonia badge that reads 0.02. Only thing reading more than 0 on test kit were Nitrates at 20 but that was before a water change. We did a water change and cleaned filter yesterday. Today angel is dead. Lost a Dottyback and Hawkfish last week. a Clown about a week before that. Angel had white spots that look almost like ICH but he's the only one with white spots. Getting really frustrating as I am not sure what we are doing wrong. Recently set up a 90 gal but I'm just ready to give it up at this point.

 

[dopey]

There is no 'New Tank Syndrome' where one expects to lose fish, corals, etc during it. Ugly phases, and signs to show the tank is ready for different types of fish/corals is normal.

How long have fish been in the tank? How was it cycled?
What test kits are you using? When did you last test, and what are those values?
Are you using RODI water or tap water?

6 fish sounds like quite a bit in a 26 gallon tank, depending on what they were and how they were added. What were these fish and when/how were they added? Overstocking a tank can lead to stress/disease/deaths.

Do you see any aggression among the fish? Do any have/had damage on their fins/bodies before dying?


Full disclosure; I also lost a goby 'early on'. I was feeding it, and thought it was fine, then one day it was dead. Never fully explained it, and truth be told I wasn't that sad since the mounds/movement of Sand was actually not that pleasant long term -- I ended up reading some time later that the sandsifters can be quite difficult to keep in a new tank due to lack of 'food' in the sand, etc and can require dedicated feedings to keep healthy... This can apply to many types of fish, some fish do require a more 'established' tank for food and/or alternative feeding methods to ensure they stay healthy.

 

[Zionas]

The Yellow Watchman Goby is not a sand sifter.

OP, it seems like you have crammed way too many fish into a 26-gallon tank. That leads to stress, aggression, and disease. A Coral Beauty does not belong in a 26-gallon tank.

8 fish in a 26-gallon is far too many. They’re in cramped quarters, literally living in and ingesting their own and each other’s waste. Of course ammonia levels will go up, and having any ammonia is not acceptable in a properly set up tank.

You can put a Coral Beauty in a 90-gallon tank, no problem, but a 26-gallon with 7 other fish is simply unacceptable. Not even a pygmy angel belongs in a tank below 55 gallons, even then I’d give a pygmy angel a 75-gallon or larger tank long term.

 

[Fishbird]

Agreed, it is definitely not inevitable to lose fish.

I went and looked at a couple of your other threads and I noticed that you had an angel die from ich in May. Have you changed anything in the tank since then in terms of either treating or managing ich?

Also, how big is your tank? Here you say 26 gallons and in the other thread once you say 36 gallons and once you say 40 gallons.

What do you have for filtration?

Can you pose the timeline you've followed for adding fish and also include what you're doing in terms of quarantine?

Also what are the parameters of your tank (if possible post your test history, not just what they are at this moment)

 

[Zionas]

For your 26-gallon tank, I suggest a maximum of five fish.

I assume you want to keep inverts so here’s what I’d do:

x1 Yellow Watchman Goby

x2 Ocellaris Clownfish

x1 Royal Gramma / Swissguard Basslet / Yellow Assessor / McNeill’s Assessor

x1 other fish no larger than 3” (Possum Wrasse, Pink Streak Wrasse, one of the small blennies, another kind of small goby, a small Filefish, some of the smaller Cardinalfish etc.)


P.S. Kudos to the Yellow Watchman Goby. These guys really are tough as nails.

 

[Manda0597]

There is no 'New Tank Syndrome' where one expects to lose fish, corals, etc during it. Ugly phases, and signs to show the tank is ready for different types of fish/corals is normal.

How long have fish been in the tank? How was it cycled?
What test kits are you using? When did you last test, and what are those values?
Are you using RODI water or tap water?

6 fish sounds like quite a bit in a 26 gallon tank, depending on what they were and how they were added. What were these fish and when/how were they added? Overstocking a tank can lead to stress/disease/deaths.

Do you see any aggression among the fish? Do any have/had damage on their fins/bodies before dying?


Full disclosure; I also lost a goby 'early on'. I was feeding it, and thought it was fine, then one day it was dead. Never fully explained it, and truth be told I wasn't that sad since the mounds/movement of Sand was actually not that pleasant long term -- I ended up reading some time later that the sandsifters can be quite difficult to keep in a new tank due to lack of 'food' in the sand, etc and can require dedicated feedings to keep healthy... This can apply to many types of fish, some fish do require a more 'established' tank for food and/or alternative feeding methods to ensure they stay healthy.

I meant 36 Gallon tank, sorry. Fish have been in the tank since March, tank was cycled since early February. I cycled it with bottled bacteria for 4 weeks then added CUC and a pair of clowns. I see no signs of aggression or damage to bodies.

The fish that were in the tank were:
YWG
2 Clowns
Springer Damsel
Longnose Hawkfish
Royal Dottyback
Greenspotted Puffer

Yes I am using RODI water, my tank has never seen tap water. I tested 4 days ago and ammonia was 0.25 nitrites were 0, nitrates were 20, SG was .024, PH was 7.9(If I recall PH correctly, paper with exact numbers is at home).

 

[Manda0597]

The Yellow Watchman Goby is not a sand sifter.

OP, it seems like you have crammed way too many fish into a 26-gallon tank. That leads to stress, aggression, and disease. A Coral Beauty does not belong in a 26-gallon tank.

8 fish in a 26-gallon is far too many. They’re in cramped quarters, literally living in and ingesting their own and each other’s waste. Of course ammonia levels will go up, and having any ammonia is not acceptable in a properly set up tank.

You can put a Coral Beauty in a 90-gallon tank, no problem, but a 26-gallon with 7 other fish is simply unacceptable. Not even a pygmy angel belongs in a tank below 55 gallons, even then I’d give a pygmy angel a 75-gallon or larger tank long term.

I meant 36 gallon, sorry, type-o. I never had a coral beauty. I had a Singapore Angel that was approximately 2.5" long which was going to go in the new tank once it was established because I know that it would inevitably outgrow the 36 Gal tank.

 

[Zionas]

Hey, it’s alright!

Still, a 36-gallon IMO is too small for any dwarf angel of the genus Centropyge, sorry. The Singapore Angel gets to 8 inches long, so I don’t think it belongs in anything below 100 gallons and a 4-foot tank Sorry OP it’s a large angel and it needs a lot of swimming room, preferably at least a 5-foot tank, 6-foot even better. With a 4-foot tank you could look into a small Tang like a Yellow Eye Kole or another one of the Bristletooth Tangs like Tomini, White Tail, Square Tail etc.

I think you crammed too many fish into too small of a tank.

Also the Singapore Angel (unless you got a captive bred one from Poma Labs) is not the easiest fish to take care of. If you really want an Angel of that genus (Apolemichthys) I heard the Xanthurus Cream is much easier and gets to around the same size. However, they’re not for small and crowded tanks.

 

[Fishbird]

I meant 36 Gallon tank, sorry. Fish have been in the tank since March, tank was cycled since early February. I cycled it with bottled bacteria for 4 weeks then added CUC and a pair of clowns. I see no signs of aggression or damage to bodies.

The fish that were in the tank were:
YWG
2 Clowns
Springer Damsel
Longnose Hawkfish
Royal Dottyback
Greenspotted Puffer

Yes I am using RODI water, my tank has never seen tap water. I tested 4 days ago and ammonia was 0.25 nitrites were 0, nitrates were 20, SG was .024, PH was 7.9(If I recall PH correctly, paper with exact numbers is at home).

Since the angel wasn't in your list of fish, where was the angel that died? It sounds like all the fish that are dying have been in multiple tanks? Are you using anything in both/all tanks (gloves, a heater, siphon for water changes, etc)?

Can you post a list of all the tanks, the dates each fish was added to each tank, and the dates they started acting sick or died? It sounds like you have a parasite in your system but its hard to know whats going on without knowing your quarantine system and which fish have shared water/equipment.

#reefsquad

 

[Fishbird]

Oh and your hands can also cause cross contamination. If you are wearing arm length gloves do you have a separate pair for each tank? And if you don't wear gloves, how are you cleaning your hands and arms between maintenance sessions for each tank?

One last thought, while it seems most likely that you have a parasite in your system, how much research have you done on puffers? I have no experience with them but I read a thread here the other day where somebody wanted a puffer and several other users pointed out that a stressed puffer can puke up toxins and kill an entire tank. When I googled green spotted puffer I found a fish that is commonly freshwater or brackish. What is the Latin name of the puffer you have?

If you don't get answers here I would post in the disease forum and I'd also post in the predator tank forum for puffer specific info.

 

[Manda0597]

Agreed, it is definitely not inevitable to lose fish.

I went and looked at a couple of your other threads and I noticed that you had an angel die from ich in May. Have you changed anything in the tank since then in terms of either treating or managing ich?

Also, how big is your tank? Here you say 26 gallons and in the other thread once you say 36 gallons and once you say 40 gallons.

What do you have for filtration?

Can you pose the timeline you've followed for adding fish and also include what you're doing in terms of quarantine?

Also what are the parameters of your tank (if possible post your test history, not just what they are at this moment)

I meant 36 gallon, sorry, type-o. I fixed it. I have a Fluval 306 Canister filter which has bio, mechanical, and chemicla filtration. I have been dosing Paraguard to combat the ICH in the tank. When introducing new fish, I acclimate them in a container with a bubbler for approximately 4-6 hours, adding tank water every 30 minutes.

 

[Fishbird]

I meant 36 gallon, sorry, type-o. I fixed it. I have a Fluval 306 Canister filter which has bio, mechanical, and chemicla filtration. I have been dosing Paraguard to combat the ICH in the tank. When introducing new fish, I acclimate them in a container with a bubbler for approximately 4-6 hours, adding tank water every 30 minutes.

A quick search of the forums here says that paraguard is not meant for marine ich.

 

[Manda0597]

Since the angel wasn't in your list of fish, where was the angel that died? It sounds like all the fish that are dying have been in multiple tanks? Are you using anything in both/all tanks (gloves, a heater, siphon for water changes, etc)?

Can you post a list of all the tanks, the dates each fish was added to each tank, and the dates they started acting sick or died? It sounds like you have a parasite in your system but its hard to know whats going on without knowing your quarantine system and which fish have shared water/equipment.

#reefsquad

I only have one tank. the 36 gallon tank. As I said, Type-o in the OP. The Angel that died was added about month ago, same time as 1 clown fish and the clown seems fine. I thought it was implied the angel was in there as well, I apologize. Tank list is as follows:
YWG- March
2 Clowns- March/May
Springer Damsel- April
Longnose Hawkfish- April
Greenspotted Puffer- April
Royal Dottyback- May
Angel- May

I wash my hands with water and Dial soap. All equipment is tank specific so nothing is shared. I have a saltwater and freshwater tank so I don't mix equipment.

I have been dosing with Paraguard and Prime

 

[Manda0597]

Hey, it’s alright!

Still, a 36-gallon IMO is too small for any dwarf angel of the genus Centropyge, sorry. The Singapore Angel gets to 8 inches long, so I don’t think it belongs in anything below 100 gallons and a 4-foot tank Sorry OP it’s a large angel and it needs a lot of swimming room, preferably at least a 5-foot tank, 6-foot even better. With a 4-foot tank you could look into a small Tang like a Yellow Eye Kole or another one of the Bristletooth Tangs like Tomini, White Tail, Square Tail etc.

I think you crammed too many fish into too small of a tank.

Also the Singapore Angel (unless you got a captive bred one from Poma Labs) is not the easiest fish to take care of. If you really want an Angel of that genus (Apolemichthys) I heard the Xanthurus Cream is much easier and gets to around the same size. However, they’re not for small and crowded tanks.

I'm thinking you're right that I overstocked. It seems all my parameters are good. And I am thinking because the white spots were specific to just the angel that it was from stress. All parameters seem good and I keep up religiously on maintenance so it has been frustrating. Don't crucify me please! I am learning, I have only ever had freshwater fish, this is my first Saltwater tank and it is sure a learning curve!!

 

[Zionas]

No intention to crucify or criticize you! Please don’t misunderstand me! I just wanted to share with you my experience and knowledge so far, if anything I want as many reefers to succeed as possible, not the other way around.

We all make mistakes, it’s normal and expected. I have to say though, that Pufferfish is not an easy fish to handle. The small confines may have made it stressed, and we cannot discount the possibility that it released toxins. It gets to 5 or 6 inches so I’d suggest having it in your 90-gallon from the get go.

Good luck and I know you will be able to recover from this!

 

[Fishbird]

I only have one tank. the 36 gallon tank. As I said, Type-o in the OP. The Angel that died was added about month ago, same time as 1 clown fish and the clown seems fine. I thought it was implied the angel was in there as well, I apologize. Tank list is as follows:
YWG- March
2 Clowns- March/May
Springer Damsel- April
Longnose Hawkfish- April
Greenspotted Puffer- April
Royal Dottyback- May
Angel- May

I wash my hands with water and Dial soap. All equipment is tank specific so nothing is shared. I have a saltwater and freshwater tank so I don't mix equipment.

I have been dosing with Paraguard and Prime

At this point I think I don’t have the knowledge to help you specifically but here are the questions I would try and answer before adding any more fish.

1) As the other poster mentioned, those 8 fish is way way way too many for a 36 gallon tank especially a new one. Stress is going to weaken their immune systems and make them more susceptible to diseases.

2) what quarantine system do you want to use going forward? Are you going to do ich eradication or ich management? There is a thread on this in the disease sub forum.

3) how are you going to deal with your current fish? Again eradication or management. If you choose eradication then you’ll need a QT tank and I would do more research on ich treatments. When getting advice make sure you’re either following the advice of a clear expert (like humblefish or Big G) or find a treatment that many many many people agree on. Paraguard is not that treatment.

4) I would do a lot more research on your puffer. You have several very aggressive fish in your tank now (they might be calm babies at the moment but in 2 years that will change) but the puffer likely needs specialized care and also carries special risks that could have a major (fatal) impact on your tank going forward.

5) when taking advice from people on this forum I always like to recommend that you check the other person’s threads and try and find out if they’re speaking from experience or theory. You want people speaking with years of experience, not “I’ve had this fish for 6 months and it’s been fine.”

Like I said, I haven’t yet encountered ich so I can’t speak from experience to help you here but I think there are a lot of areas where you could get better information to help you move forward! I hope the points numbered above can help with guiding some of that research.

Good luck!

 

[Manda0597]

No intention to crucify or criticize you! Please don’t misunderstand me! I just wanted to share with you my experience and knowledge so far, if anything I want as many reefers to succeed as possible, not the other way around.

We all make mistakes, it’s normal and expected. I have to say though, that Pufferfish is not an easy fish to handle. The small confines may have made it stressed, and we cannot discount the possibility that it released toxins. It gets to 5 or 6 inches so I’d suggest having it in your 90-gallon from the get go.

Good luck and I know you will be able to recover from this!

The puffer has seemed pretty easy and hardy so far. I am not adding anymore fish and do plan on moving the damsel and puffer over to the 90 gal in a couple of months when it is up and running. How many fish do you suggest for a 90 gallon tank? Per my research I thought I was good on stock with this tank but apparently I was wrong. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately new tanks are never healthy no matter what you do. I know many people will disagree but it is what it is.

I also feel your "religious" changing water and cleaning the "filter" is not the best thing to do. (what filter?)

You have a "very" new tank that was cycled with bottled bacteria, not my favorite method but that tank just needs tome and some dirt. (maybe some real live rock) It is the bacteria that keep the tank clean and healthy not a filter.

You already have the fish so there isn't much you can do about that but I would not clean a filter and I may throw it out. I also would not change so much water, maybe half as much or less. Water actually gets healthier as it ages, to an extent.

If new water was great, new tanks would be the healthiest, but they never are as healthy as old tanks.

I personally would not use Paraguard or Prime. No additives are needed and may be detrimental to a new tank.

You need to give it some more months without messing with it to much. If it gets grungy with algae, thats great, normal and healthy. The bacteria will love it and then, in time that stuff will abate leaving you with a healthy tank.

 

[Zionas]

OP, here’s a video of an Australian guy explaining what happens when fish are stressed:





In a nutshell, they devote all of their energy to their most basic life sustaining functions, leading to a “drain” in capacity for their other bodily functions including the immune system.

 

[Manda0597]

Unfortunately new tanks are never healthy no matter what you do. I know many people will disagree but it is what it is.

I also feel your "religious" changing water and cleaning the "filter" is not the best thing to do. (what filter?)

You have a "very" new tank that was cycled with bottled bacteria, not my favorite method but that tank just needs tome and some dirt. (maybe some real live rock) It is the bacteria that keep the tank clean and healthy not a filter.

You already have the fish so there isn't much you can do about that but I would not clean a filter and I may throw it out. I also would not change so much water, maybe half as much or less. Water actually gets healthier as it ages, to an extent.

If new water was great, new tanks would be the healthiest, but they never are as healthy as old tanks.

I personally would not use Paraguard or Prime. No additives are needed and may be detrimental to a new tank.

You need to give it some more months without messing with it to much. If it gets grungy with algae, thats great, normal and healthy. The bacteria will love it and then, in time that stuff will abate leaving you with a healthy tank.

Thank you so much for your help! This definitely is a learning curve for me for sure. I will try to leave it alone. I feel like maybe I try to keep it "too clean" and don't let the bacteria build up so I will definitely cut the water change in half and leave the filter be for awhile. Thank you!