New tank theory with corals.

[Thor2j]

I'm not trying to get bashed just looking for information. I am new to corals but not salt water tanks. My tank has been up for 5 months. 140 gallon reefer 525xl. It was cycled with 140lbs fully cured live rock with "live " sand. Tank never had a cycle. It was put together with no expense limit, wanted top notch equipment and monitoring as I am out of town a decent amount. I have had zoos and a few LPS in since about 5 weeks in. Since then I have probably 50 different corals in the tank , more then half from wwc. Probably 9 SPS. Most were given to me by wwc but some were purchased. All but 1 of the free ones are doing pretty well. Of the 50 corals I have maybe lost 2. Both from a different online vendor im not too happy with.

My point I'm getting to is what magically happens at 1 year. I hear people say the tank can't resist change better which I understand. They say it is still cycling which I understand. But if you are anal like me about this and monitor constantly, stay up to date on water changes, and stare at your tank for any changes is there that big a risk??

Ph swings from 8.0 at night to 8.1 during lights on. Live in Florida so ac keeps it low. Dose Alk at night to keep ph from dropping too much. Temp stays 77-78. CA steady at 420ish. Change 10% water every 2 weeks. Run gfo and carbon. Change carbon every 2 weeks and gfo at 3 when it runs out.

Now I am battling a little dyno problem on the sand but people who see my tank from local stores can't believe how well it's doing. They say if that's my biggest problem I have nothing to worry about.

Hopefully I haven't jinxed myself. Looking for information what I need to look at for and what will change as it ages.

Thanks

 

[Thor2j]

Here are a few from my tank.


When I bought it

2 1/2 months in tank

2 1/2 months in tank

2 months in tank

 

[brandon429]

We skip cycle all the time

Nitrification takes X amount of time to attain on a surface area. As long as kept wet it doesn't downscale...nothing you mentioned has to do with tank age live rocks already nitrify when transferred to new home.

Mines ten years old no probs due to care methods and your methods can be adjusted to get same ends. You have it better than most, you're considered acting early with no real algae challenges

Post full tank shot

Lighting, feed and grazer balances can adjust outcomes in larger tanks it's not age of rocks inside current tank

 

[LandenB]

I am interested to see what people have to say since I too have quite a bit of coral in a 2.5 month old tank...

 

[Tahoe61]

Every tank personality is unique. I have always had sps dominate tanks almost from the get go, this newer system is not ready for sps even 8 months down the line, something is just not right, but I used the exact same equipment for this tank. So I wait and experiment, and the tank will come around.

If you feel that the tank is ready and the chemistry stable, you're doing your research then you are the best judge. Do not put too much weight into forum approval.

Your corals are beautiful and hopefully they will continue to do well, BUT remember tanks do crash for silly reasons, corals die for unknown reasons/it's not obvious to us. If you're a die hard like myself you just pick your self up and consider it another hobby challenge.

 

[Thor2j]

Every tank personality is unique. I have always had sps dominate tanks almost from the get go, this newer system is not ready for sps even 8 months down the line, something is just not right, but I used the exact same equipment for this tank. So I wait and experiment, and the tank will come around.

If you feel that the tank is ready and the chemistry stable, you're doing your research then you are the best judge. Do not put too much weight into forum approval.

Your corals are beautiful and hopefully they will continue to do well, BUT remember tanks do crash for silly reasons, corals die for unknown reasons/it's not obvious to us. If you're a die hard like myself you just pick your self up and consider it another hobby challenge.

So what tale tell signs are you looking for to know it's ready?? Trying to gather as much knowledge as I can.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Every tank personality is unique. I have always had sps dominate tanks almost from the get go, this newer system is not ready for sps even 8 months down the line, something is just not right, but I used the exact same equipment for this tank. So I wait and experiment, and the tank will come around.

If you feel that the tank is ready and the chemistry stable, you're doing your research then you are the best judge. Do not put too much weight into forum approval.

Your corals are beautiful and hopefully they will continue to do well, BUT remember tanks do crash for silly reasons, corals die for unknown reasons/it's not obvious to us. If you're a die hard like myself you just pick your self up and consider it another hobby challenge.

+10

My point I'm getting to is what magically happens at 1 year.

That's what is happening in your tank now. As. Brandon mentioned it's a bit more mature Due to your method for a. Number of reasons.
IMO

 

[Joshky]

I posted in your other thread.

Okay first off, you're absolutely wrong, sorry. With that out of the way, it's definitely true that a good/seasoned aquarist can start a brand new tank and add in SPS, clams, anemones, whatever and be successful; however, it's also true that generally speaking, the first year (+/-) can be very bumpy and can present a multitude of challenges that can cause these delicate animals to die, even if you know what you're doing. Your tank goes through biological shifts along the way, which is why people say to wait because it's not worth the risk, people do anyways and that's their prerogative. I'm not lecturing you I started my 80g with a large pack of SPS so it's not like I'm holier than you, but if I could go back in time and do it differently I probably would've, a few of my SPS are dormant because of stress; but the problem is the SPS were from my brother's tank he was breaking down and he made me a frag pack before he sold his colonies off, I setup the same day he broke his tank down.

To add to it, every tank is different and nothing is set in stone in this hobby, as long as you have an okay understanding of good husbandry and keep things stable that's a big part of it. Patience plays a big role in this hobby and I think we all need a reminder at times to slow down. This being your first coral reef I applaud you diving head first and doing well, I hope you have a very successful reef long term which is what we all strive for.

 

[Tahoe61]

Coralline algae growth, not presence but growth.
How test sps do, I have learned my lesson on over stocking sps. Right now I have one Ant Insignis, not the easiest acropora, if it perks up and colors up then I will add another.
Consumption/utilization of the big 3. If my tank is sitting at nearly the same levels day after day even with the presence of LPS then those easier corals are not growing out as I desire, so sps are on hold.

As I posted this have been the longest I have gone with a new tank without adding a ton of sps. I have no answers just enough experience to know when to slow down and consider alternative methods that have eluded me thus far with this tank.

 

[nitro]

That is my situation right now,I am wanting to add sps but the tank is just not there yet and I have to wait. Waiting is the toughest part. When do you know when?
Nitro

 

[brandon429]

If we consider full blown frag tanks that have frags, frag plugs, and frag racks, no rocks or sand, and the sps frags/corals do so well that they encrust over the plugs and lock the frag into the grating (my lfs and frag source) how does that implicate substrate and tank age requirements for the current poster-

Age of tank isn't required although some may benefit from taking months to discover their own way

But at any point, known working methods can be repeated easily if no new forged way is required, says ten thousand pico reefs

Anything you are missing in the food chain from having immature live rock, yet rock that still digests free ammonia, is available as a retail feed or additive. They are shipping skip cycle reefs as we speak, check the major blogs

It's the coming way even though there will be harsh bio backlash it's still viable biology


TBS live rock


Skip cycle biology as a known legit business model... So many ways to skip cycle for those in the know. It is not any type of snake oil it's a specific order of operations we have a six page thread on skip cycling with tons of examples. Lighting, feed adjustments and care method changes (hand guide your tank clean until it complies) and grazer adjustments can easily fix your issues. You've described nor photographed anything abnormal so far and for sure nothing age related. We can set up a nano reef to grow any of the corals in the first post using live rocks and the system will live just fine, big tankers should have it easier not harder, since big tanks are claimed more stable.

 

[WetWhistle]

When setting up a reef tank may things factor in for how soon you can add corals and how fast it is cycled. Most guide lines that are recommended are for times that it is typically safest to add corals and they are based on averages of systems. With that being said they are guide lines and for each tank the time varies so you need to learn what is best for your system.
Many things influence these timelines and some can be way less while other way longer that it takes to be ready. Things like hardware, type of setup, source water, experience level, husbandry habits, livestock that is added, bio load, speed of which the livestock was added, coral selection (IE soft vs sps) all change the outcome of a tank and how long it takes. For instance if you added all cured and aged live rock from an existing tank that was upgraded you would be bringing over an established population of food web as well as bacteria so the time to cycle will be way shorter. Versus if you got new fresh rock that needed to cure. Same goes with substrate, new vs old. Say you add many corals that use organics as a prime means of supplemental feeding your time will be shorter then if you used corals that don't rely on organics as much. You would be using corals to help purify your water.

After a year the tank is typically more stable. If you were to add a large amount of livestock into a year old system(say a school of fish) all the populations that are needed for waste processing are able to handle the increased load. Vs a newer system if you were to add things quickly it is less likely that it will have the proper bacteria population to handle the sudden increases. To complicate things sometimes in a newer system it can handle a increase in livestock it all depends on your setup and previous level of livestock. If your population of bacteria were at a dense enough level it could possibly handle it. With that being said most people stick to the safe guidelines not just because they have to but because it does cut down on issues. In a syatem that is over a year old you will typically get way faster growth rates then you do in a new system. Your tank will have higher levels of bacteria and food web populations, the reefer has also had time to figure out the flow of the system and the needs of it. As each tank is different you will have only a guess of what a new systems needs as you have not had time to work with it.

Take someone with experience vs new and the difference of setting up a tank. Someone with experience can and does set up a tank with a heavy bio load from the start vs someone that is new that should not do the same. The person with experience has learned to see the early warning signs and knows how much a system can handle. Vs someone that is new who doesn't know what to look out for. Sometimes just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This is a good lesson to learn.

OP you sound like you are at a good level and getting good results. Keep in mind Fast and reef don't mix so take this time to learn patience. I get you want to do more but if you keep thinking your system has aged fully when it is so young you will cause issues. Your tank is working well for its current bio load but don't assume that if you keep adding that it will act the same. You are at a point where things can keep going good, but things can go to crap very quickly if you push things to far. Just keep up your maintenance and the tank and keep going slow. Or your tank that is doing well will all of a sudden be covered in hair algae and we will see another thread about 'oh no i did something stupid' lol.

 

[Brew12]

I'm not trying to get bashed just looking for information. I am new to corals but not salt water tanks. My tank has been up for 5 months. 140 gallon reefer 525xl. It was cycled with 140lbs fully cured live rock with "live " sand. Tank never had a cycle. It was put together with no expense limit, wanted top notch equipment and monitoring as I am out of town a decent amount. I have had zoos and a few LPS in since about 5 weeks in. Since then I have probably 50 different corals in the tank , more then half from wwc. Probably 9 SPS. Most were given to me by wwc but some were purchased. All but 1 of the free ones are doing pretty well. Of the 50 corals I have maybe lost 2. Both from a different online vendor im not too happy with.

My point I'm getting to is what magically happens at 1 year. I hear people say the tank can't resist change better which I understand. They say it is still cycling which I understand. But if you are anal like me about this and monitor constantly, stay up to date on water changes, and stare at your tank for any changes is there that big a risk??

Ph swings from 8.0 at night to 8.1 during lights on. Live in Florida so ac keeps it low. Dose Alk at night to keep ph from dropping too much. Temp stays 77-78. CA steady at 420ish. Change 10% water every 2 weeks. Run gfo and carbon. Change carbon every 2 weeks and gfo at 3 when it runs out.

Now I am battling a little dyno problem on the sand but people who see my tank from local stores can't believe how well it's doing. They say if that's my biggest problem I have nothing to worry about.

Hopefully I haven't jinxed myself. Looking for information what I need to look at for and what will change as it ages.

Thanks

I put a couple of cheaper corals (an sps and 2 zoa's) in my tank 3 weeks after it went wet. Dry rocks and Biospira. All look great now (1 month later) and showing growth. I think many reefers aren't ready for corals during the first year as they work on getting equipment locked in and work on their learning curve. Not sure the tank cares nearly as much. Just my opinion.

 

[Joshky]

TBS live rock

TBS rock has its own biological cycle shifts, I would know, I own it. A lot of the life that comes in on that rock gives you a good head start and your tank does amazing, but over time the sponges, tunicates, miscellaneous sea squirts, barnacles etc. all start to die. Other things thrive, but not everything on that rock does, for instance some of those sea squirts and sponges are cryptic and don't thrive in their new conditions etc. it's just not possible, this can cause some minor algae blooms and minor instability.

 

[LandenB]

We skip cycle all the time

Nitrification takes X amount of time to attain on a surface area. As long as kept wet it doesn't downscale...nothing you mentioned has to do with tank age live rocks already nitrify when transferred to new home.

Mines ten years old no probs due to care methods and your methods can be adjusted to get same ends. You have it better than most, you're considered acting early with no real algae challenges

Post full tank shot

Lighting, feed and grazer balances can adjust outcomes in larger tanks it's not age of rocks inside current tank

...wheres that full tank shot?!!

 

[Thor2j]

Now if I could only fix my diatom in sand issue. Driving me crazy.

 

[brandon429]

the live rock I bought also downscaled sponges agreed in time

The way we do hand guiding is a great technique, if the known methods are worth repeating the scaling of benthic communities over time won't really be detrimental, like when we lose fire worms or CUC members in tanks etc

That all factors into ammonia digestion ability imo

Large threads say rinsing sandbeds prevents diatoms agreed debatable but again we have about six pages

 

[Brew12]

Now if I could only fix my diatom in sand issue. Driving me crazy.

Mine lasted less than a week. Just let it go, (and let your skimmer handle the rest!)

If it doesn't go away fairly soon you may not be dealing with diatoms.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ah I see the point of the thread now. I looked at the other one. Yea adding a lot of stonys can sink you because uptake is in weeks and months as the tank truly matures and importantly it's needs become apparent.

I was several months ago gifted some stonys and montis. In my small young ish tank the balance I had was sooo good the sps took off the montis blew up.
Wanna guess what happened?

That's actually why they say slow addition. So you can keep up with dosing and the biofilter can build up.
Yea IMO a well thought out skip cycle will get you ahead (sometimes). But we still need time to observe and correct.

 

[Brew12]

Ah I see the point of the thread now. I looked at the other one. Yea adding a lot of stonys can sink you because uptake is in weeks and months as the tank truly matures and importantly it's needs become apparent.

I was several months ago gifted some stonys and montis. In my small young ish tank the balance I had was sooo good the sps took off the montis blew up.
Wanna guess what happened?

That's actually why they say slow addition. So you can keep up with dosing and the biofilter can build up.
Yea IMO a well thought out skip cycle will get you ahead (sometimes). But we still need time to observe and correct.

I think this is key. Adding 50 frags to a new tank will cause almost the exact same problems as adding 50 frags to a 2 year old tank. Trying to adjust to the new amount of calcium/alk and trace minerals you need to add would be very challenging. Adding those 50 frags slowly over time will allow you to make much more gradual changes giving a much higher chance at success.