Newbie to dosing vinegar fighting nitrates.

[Scorchx1245]

Hi all, so I started to win my battle with nitrates with my 4 gallon refugium. (40gallon breeder 15 gallon sump with an area for a refugium, skimmer, etc, slow drip of kalk) they were at 60 I got them down to 30. Well my refugium turned into a mess of GHA I believe my bulb wasnt bright enough only 7 watts and the macro was being out competed. I just upgraded to a h80 kessil. But now even with my stringent feeding schedule and 20% WC every 2 weeks they just sit at 50-60. The chaeto is growing ok after my refiguim cleaning. So I'm looking into carbon dosing. Im looking into randy's article and the reef keeping link about vinegar and I want to continue my WC schedule but dont know if I should during the preliminary rounds of dosing the vinegar. Also I'm starting at 1.5ml. Per day.
Also being semi new 1 year with a 12 gallon aquapod, and this for 6 months I went with crushed coral instead of sand and when I vacumn the crushed coral, it seems to be a detritus resivor. I thought with it being easier to vacumn and have more flow low it would be a good idea. Now i want to go back to true sand. Less detritus built up. Would it be a good to switch?

So heres my setup.
40 gallon breeder- *Rodi water* is used
-Eshopps psk 150 hob skimmer (in sump), 4 gallon refugium, kalk dripper.
- 3 hydor PHs mix match of flows on timers equaling 35x turn over.
-filter floss

Livestock -
-2 occ. Clowns
-1 YWG
-one 2 inch one spot foxface (my pride n joy growing out to a 125 that is going to replace this tank. Already own it.
-1 emerald crab and usual snails and like 5 hermits.

Params-
-Ca 449
-dkh 8
- mag 1380
-Nitrate 60
-Nitrite and ammonia 0
-SA 1.025

 

[mta_morrow]

If it were my tank and these circumstances, I would do a 50% wc. That should get them to 30. Then if they are stay at 30 for say 2 weeks, do another 50%.

Then perhaps consider other methods to maintain.

 

[Scorchx1245]

So, let's say I do my 2 50% WC and get them to 15. Would I still do my scheduled WC during the first/ second weeks of vinegar dosing? Or just hold off?

 

[Dan_P]

So, let's say I do my 2 50% WC and get them to 15. Would I still do my scheduled WC during the first/ second weeks of vinegar dosing? Or just hold off?

Yes, you could do that and take the opportunity to understand why your nitrates are so high. After the water change, measure the nitrates every other day to determine if they are rising or stable.

If I found that my nitrates were stable, I would assume the denitrification process was keeping up with my feeding schedule. Consider skipping the vinegar dosing, do another water change and let the denitrification system catch up.

If the nitrates bounce back up after the large water change, I would take that as an indication that denitrification is not keeping up with my feeding schedule and vinegar dosing might be the thing to try.

 

[Scorchx1245]

So why do so many people dose vinegar regularly or nopox daily? Or biopellets etc. I've said they keep rising. So if my 20% WCS every 2 weeks is not doing it other than maintaining 50 PM whats more but bigger w/CS gonna do? Sounds like I'm masking a problem with WC's. And if course they're gonna bounce up. I'm stringent with feeding, one small cube of mysis every day and a piece of nori 2x per week a small piece. I noted about my crushed coral substrate that I vacum. Look up to read s out that

 

[Dan_P]

So why do so many people dose vinegar regularly or nopox daily? Or biopellets etc. I've said they keep rising. So if my 20% WCS every 2 weeks is not doing it other than maintaining 50 PM whats more but bigger w/CS gonna do? Sounds like I'm masking a problem with WC's. And if course they're gonna bounce up. I'm stringent with feeding, one small cube of mysis every day and a piece of nori 2x per week a small piece. I noted about my crushed coral substrate that I vacum. Look up to read s out that

Thanks for setting the record straight. I need to calculate if one cube of mysis can result in so much nitrate. I’ll get back to you on that.

From reading hundreds of posts, there seems to be a consensus that a coarse substrate collects biological material (detritus), as opposed having it filtered out, and this situation in turn leads to increased production of nitrate. A study by Toonen and Wee on aquarium substrates suggest that the link between coarse substrates and high nitrate might be more than just collecting detritus. A coarse substrate is likely to have less low oxygen surfaces for dentrification than finer substrates, making such substrates possibly less effective at denitrification. So, maybe both factors combine to create issues.

Dosing vinegar stimulates a different set of denitrifying bacteria which can augment your tank’s current dentrification capacity. You could continue to do water changes to reduce nitrates while the vinegar dosing works to stimulate extra denitrifying capacity.

Doing water changes is in no way masking a problem. At the very worst, it could be considered an expensive method for nitrate maintenance.

 

[Dan_P]

I'm stringent with feeding, one small cube of mysis every day and a piece of nori 2x per week a small piece.

1 mysis cube contains 150 mg protein. 16% of this is nitrogen. Assuming all this nitrogen is converted to nitrate, you are adding about .7 ppm per day. Don’t know about the nori. So, in the worse case, where the system’s denitrification capacity is very low, your feeding schedule alone seems to be heavy enough to explain your nitrate level and the rebound you see after a water change.

The poor denitrification capacity might be normal for coarse substrate. Regular vacuuming might be taking the poor performance to none.

 

[Coralreefer1]

How deep is you sandbed? One of th best things I did was create a deep sand bed in my reef tank. This provides an optimum way of controlling nitrates through the cultivation of anaerobic bacteria which breaks down nitrates into nitrogen gas to be removed from your tank across your air/water interface.

 

[Scorchx1245]

2 inches, and I just ment masking by fixing high nitrates with wcs. And by cube it's a piece the size of of my thumbnail but flat say 3mm thick by 8mm wide. I really do think it is the crushed coral vs sand that is one of the issues. I'm going to slowly replace sand bed a cup a day or two.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

one thing that you could try that would be relatively simple is a bag or two or three of sea chem matrix. it is a porous material the denitrfying bacteria can live within. Stack them in a low flow area. You don't seem to have a high bioload at all to me.
The bacteria does however take awhile to establish.

I agree that replacing the crushed coral with sand will eventually help.

good luck!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So why do so many people dose vinegar regularly or nopox daily? Or biopellets etc. I've said they keep rising. So if my 20% WCS every 2 weeks is not doing it other than maintaining 50 PM whats more but bigger w/CS gonna do? Sounds like I'm masking a problem with WC's. And if course they're gonna bounce up. I'm stringent with feeding, one small cube of mysis every day and a piece of nori 2x per week a small piece. I noted about my crushed coral substrate that I vacum. Look up to read s out that

I'm not sure of the reason for the question, but i dosed daily for years at a variety of different doses, partly to help export N, but also to drive bacterial growth as a food for filter feeders. I'd dose vinegar on a tank with filter feeders, even if I had to dose nitrate to keep enough present.

 

[Scorchx1245]

Oh no, just saying if all I get told is to do water changes. Salt and rodi water adds up. I'm dosing vinegar now. On day 7 at 3.6ml/day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Oh no, just saying if all I get told is to do water changes. Salt and rodi water adds up. I'm dosing vinegar now. On day 7 at 3.6ml/day.

Water changes are generally not the best way to control nutrients.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thanks for setting the record straight. I need to calculate if one cube of mysis can result in so much nitrate. I’ll get back to you on that.

From reading hundreds of posts, there seems to be a consensus that a coarse substrate collects biological material (detritus), as opposed having it filtered out, and this situation in turn leads to increased production of nitrate. A study by Toonen and Wee on aquarium substrates suggest that the link between coarse substrates and high nitrate might be more than just collecting detritus. A coarse substrate is likely to have less low oxygen surfaces for dentrification than finer substrates, making such substrates possibly less effective at denitrification. So, maybe both factors combine to create issues.

Dosing vinegar stimulates a different set of denitrifying bacteria which can augment your tank’s current dentrification capacity. You could continue to do water changes to reduce nitrates while the vinegar dosing works to stimulate extra denitrifying capacity.

Doing water changes is in no way masking a problem. At the very worst, it could be considered an expensive method for nitrate maintenance.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thanks for setting the record straight. I need to calculate if one cube of mysis can result in so much nitrate. I’ll get back to you on that.

From reading hundreds of posts, there seems to be a consensus that a coarse substrate collects biological material (detritus), as opposed having it filtered out, and this situation in turn leads to increased production of nitrate. A study by Toonen and Wee on aquarium substrates suggest that the link between coarse substrates and high nitrate might be more than just collecting detritus. A coarse substrate is likely to have less low oxygen surfaces for dentrification than finer substrates, making such substrates possibly less effective at denitrification. So, maybe both factors combine to create issues.

Dosing vinegar stimulates a different set of denitrifying bacteria which can augment your tank’s current dentrification capacity. You could continue to do water changes to reduce nitrates while the vinegar dosing works to stimulate extra denitrifying capacity.

.

Supposing that "detritus" is bio-waste that was not processed ( detritus may be defined as the bio-waste that is left over after mineralisation and may accumulate in the present circumstances) , why the presence of more detritus will produce more nitrate?
The nitrogen present in the detritus is only usable after being mineralized or used by the mineralising bacteria but the fact it became "detritus" means that it can not be processed if the circumstances are not changed. Does the dosing of carbohydrates provide these changes?
When dosing vinegar only part of the produced bio-mass is effectively removed. A part becomes part of the food chain and be recycled, most of the nitrogen will be released as ammonia.

The effect of carbon dosing on denitrification is discussable. When a high C:N ratio is maintained denitrification is build of in favour of DNRA.

The influence of carbon dosing on denitrification and a nitrifying biofilm may be huge as the film may be overgrown producing a thick biofilm with a lot of anoxic zones but as nitrification is inhibited there will not be enough nitrate present in the low oxygen zones to process all HS produced. Normal produced HS in a biofilm may be reduced by autotropic bacteria ( not needing carbo hydrates) using nitrate to produce sulphate or/and elemental sulphur. The presence of nitrate or nitrite is essential for removing HS within the film! This is only one of many possible scenario's which may be written if a to high C:N ratio is maintained. Therefore carbo hydrates may not be dosed out of the blue, based on some advice a certain amount/ litre is safe, based on the nitrate level. Maybe it is not!!! The daily ammonia production may influence the nitrate level but the nitrate level does not tell us a thing about the daily ammonia production, the ammonia reduction capacity and the need for nitrogen , all influenced by carbon dosing. If nitrate is present something may prevent the nitrate to be used by photo- autotrophs!?

Different sets of denitrifying bacteria may be stimulated by vinegar dosing? Can you be more specific?

Denitrification may be influenced positively by carbon dosing by the effect on SHNAD ( Simultane Heterotrofe Nitrificatie en (And) Denitrificatie). A lot of heterotrophic bacteria are able to nitrify and perform denitrification aerobically.
To what extend SHNAD may take place in a marine aquarium I do not know. Yet!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'd dose vinegar on a tank with filter feeders, even if I had to dose nitrate to keep enough present.

If one needs to dose nitrate to keep enough present to use up the doses vinegar added to the aquarium something may be seriously wrong with the nitrifying carrying capacity in the system. Most primary reducers and producers prefer ammonia. It is possible the carrying capacity may be supported meanly by heterotrophic ammonia reduction due to a high C:N ratio, a situation I want to avoid at all times. Why dosing carbo hydrates to grow food for filterfeeders? There are safe ways to feed filterfeeders. Normal food for example.
Nitrate may also be used up by normal consumption and denitrification. Why someone should add carbohydrates in what may be a balanced system and change the installed balance just for feeding filterfeeders? This may also be the case in a system with a steady level off 5 or 10 ppm nitrate, or any level.
I try to keep a measurable amount of nitrate present at all times and I would adjust the denitrification capacity if not enough nitrate is present.

 

[Dan_P]

Supposing that "detritus" is bio-waste that was not processed ( detritus may be defined as the bio-waste that is left over after mineralisation and may accumulate in the present circumstances) , why the presence of more detritus will produce more nitrate?

I assume that aquarist that vacuum sand believe that detritus is accumulated biological material that if digested will eventually lead to the release of nitrate and phosphate. If detritus were just the left over, slow to digest biological material, one might still want to remove it to improve pore water and oxygen diffusion through the substrate. I am not aware of any scientific studies that elucidate the consequences of vacuuming marine aquarium substrate.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I assume that aquarist that vacuum sand believe that detritus is accumulated biological material that if digested will eventually lead to the release of nitrate and phosphate. If detritus were just the left over, slow to digest biological material, one might still want to remove it to improve pore water and oxygen diffusion through the substrate. I am not aware of any scientific studies that elucidate the consequences of vacuuming marine aquarium substrate.

As detritus is organic matter that is not processed for some reason, it is harmless as long the circumstances do not changes. Of coarse removing it prevents build up and possible recycling.
It may be used by consumers of detritus ( cucumbers?) and digested , maybe ending up again as detritus. To prevent detritus as much as possible all food added should be of marine origin. I do not see any problem if it becomes part of the food chain again. That is what happens in aquaria where detritus does not accumulate.