Newbie with first case of ich?

[Steve Jones]

Woke up this AM and went to feed the gang before work. First two fish in my tank after cycling were a pair of Picasso clowns. The tank started its cycle in late January, so its a newer tank. They staked out a spot at the back top of the tank and hung out there all the time. Only real time they venture out is when its feeding time. This morning I found one clown down near the sand bed at the front of the tank - the other was still in their normal spot. He didn't look well. Seemed to be gasping a little. It looks like there might be a few tiny white spots on him. Is this ich? It's my first experience with a sick fish. I tested the water before going to work. Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates are all between 0 and .1. I had just done a 25% water change about 4 days ago. I also noticed at this AM's feeding that the other clown didn't eat. I've attached a couple pics I took with my phone - but kind of hard to see anything. Any ideas / suggestions?

Also, in talking to others they indicated stress might be involved from changes. No new fish had been added. But the aquarium is a BioCube 29 gallon. I had recently replaced the bio-balls that come with the system with the InTank filtration system and fuge. I put Chaeto in the fuge. Might the ich have come in with that?

If it is ich, do I treat the whole tank? I have a Flame Angel and I've read that copper will kill it, so obviously I have to deal with that. Plus there are the corals to be concerned with. Are there are other treatments? How quickly will this spread if it is ich? How quickly does ich kill?

Thanks for any and all help & suggestions!

 

[saltlife757]

Ich will usually appear to the visible eye when a fish's immune system is weak. SO my guess is that there is something that has stressed your fish out. It could be the temperature of the new water when you did your water change was different. Thats why smaller tanks are more difficult to keep. There are a few different ways to fight icy. One way is Hyposalinity. Another way is Cuppermine treatment. These both require hospital tanks. However, unless you find out what is stressing the fish out, they will likely continue to get ich. I found what the cause for ich in my system was, then overfed my fish with garlic based diet and eventually the visible appearance of ich was gone. Remember, Hypo and Cuppermine is just a bandaid. Find the source is my best advice.

 

[Steve Jones]

Ich will usually appear to the visible eye when a fish's immune system is weak. SO my guess is that there is something that has stressed your fish out. It could be the temperature of the new water when you did your water change was different. Thats why smaller tanks are more difficult to keep. There are a few different ways to fight icy. One way is Hyposalinity. Another way is Cuppermine treatment. These both require hospital tanks. However, unless you find out what is stressing the fish out, they will likely continue to get ich. I found what the cause for ich in my system was, then overfed my fish with garlic based diet and eventually the visible appearance of ich was gone. Remember, Hypo and Cuppermine is just a bandaid. Find the source is my best advice.

Thanks. How much time do I have to get this fixed? I'll act ASAP after work today. Others have recommended Herbtana so I don't have to quarantine. Thoughts? My challenge is I live 2 hours from the nearest well-stocked saltwater supply place. But do I need to worry about this spreading to the whole tank and everyone dying before I get it fixed? I will see what might be causing the stress. I have done the water changes before with no issues. The filtration change is the biggest thing.

 

[saltlife757]

If had a crystal ball, I would tell you haha. It just depends on the fish. Clown fish, compared to tangs, are able to fight ich better. I haven't heard of Herbtana. What is it? Do you have corals or any inverts in the tank? if not, hypo or cuppermine would do the trick. Thats why people set up a bare bottom hospital tanks with the bare minimums. so you can treat with cuppermine or hypo. without killing corals or inverts. you can setup a hospital tank for under 50 bucks. It's worth having. It can spread to other fish, but again, it just depends on how the other fishes immune system is. Just keep a close eye on it and if it gets worse, you need to move the fish. Try feeding more than usual with garlic after you find out whats stressing them.

Stress can come from anything..
rapid change in temperature, salinity, ammonia swings, ph. Other fish being bullies, etc.

 

[saltlife757]

Just read stuff about Herbtana and it seems pretty good, I just have no knowledge or experience with it. So i can't say anything good or bad about it for sure. Let us know how it works out if you decide to try it.

 

[Steve Jones]

If had a crystal ball, I would tell you haha. It just depends on the fish. Clown fish, compared to tangs, are able to fight ich better. I haven't heard of Herbtana. What is it? Do you have corals or any inverts in the tank? if not, hypo or cuppermine would do the trick. Thats why people set up a bare bottom hospital tanks with the bare minimums. so you can treat with cuppermine or hypo. without killing corals or inverts. you can setup a hospital tank for under 50 bucks. It's worth having. It can spread to other fish, but again, it just depends on how the other fishes immune system is. Just keep a close eye on it and if it gets worse, you need to move the fish. Try feeding more than usual with garlic after you find out whats stressing them.

Stress can come from anything..
rapid change in temperature, salinity, ammonia swings, ph. Other fish being bullies, etc.

Yes, have corals and inverts in tank. I have a small quaratine tank. 10 gallon.

Herbtana was recommended on another forum. Doesn't require quarantine and is all natural. Couple of people have sworn by it. From the website https://www.microbelift.com/index.php?cID=1483:

100% Natural Expellant for Parasitic Diseases
Provides a chemical-free treatment effective against parasitic diseases including:

• White Spot (Ich)
• Costia
• Flukes (gill & skin)
• Trichodina
• Chilodonella
• Oodinium

MICROBE-LIFT/Herbtana is a unique, herbal, immune-enhancing stimulant, which reduces: skin flukes, gill flukes, Ich, Oodinium, Costia, Chilodonella and Trichodina. Parasitic infections are characterized by symptoms, such as: milky skin, flashing and heavy breathing.

Parasites are generally present on most fish at very low levels at all times. These are naturally controlled by the fish's immune system. When stress levels increase, the ability of the immune system to respond to its requirement to control the natural level of parasites is directly affected. This poor response allows parasites to increase in numbers, thus causing any of the serious above mentioned health issues in the host fish.

MICROBE-LIFT/Herbtana supports the fish's immune system, driving off the excess parasites. Since they cannot return to the fish during treatment, the majority of the parasites will starve without a host.

MICROBE-LIFT/Herbtana is safe for all aquatic life. It is a great aid to use when acclimating fish to a new environment.

 

[Tahoe61]

I can not emphasize the importance of reading the two links provided below to assist you in dealing with Marine Ich. To treat Marine Ich one must understand the life cycle and viable treatment options. Remember just because you can not see the parasite does not mean it's not there.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

 

[Darryl]

did you just take the bioballs out and replace them with the IT basket? if so thats the problem you have a mini spike because the bio filter was removed .Amonnia spike and there ya go streesed fish. It is almost like re cycling your tank, but faster.
if not i think it is related .
check all your water peramitors often .
the bio filter on rocks have to pick up the extra load that the established bioballs had , takes a bit more time but straitens things out in time.

 

[saltlife757]

The tank hasn't been running too long. So wouldn't removing bioballs not really matter? I always thought bioballs took a long time to become established. Maybe because its a small tank, I'm not sure. No one in my area uses bio balls. Live rock is a much better choice.

 

[Steve Jones]

As I mentioned in first post, did tests this AM when I saw the clown in trouble. Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites all between 0 and .1 so I don't think I had a spike. The filtration change was made about 4 or 5 days ago. I test these three parameters at least every other day for now. I have live rock in the tank. I also did a 25% water change immediately prior to the filtration change. (By immediate, I mean waiting a couple hours for temperature and salinity to balance out prior to making the filtration change).

 

[melypr1985]

You'll want to go fallow in your DT for 76 days. Take out all the fish and run TTM. Copper is an option but I would suggest Copper Safe or CopperPower instead of cuppramine. I prefer TTM since angels can be sensitive to copper and it's much quicker and doesn't involve chemicals.
Here's how to do that. It's easier than it looks, but does require some work.
http://reef2reef.com/threads/spars-tank-transfer-method.209690/

 

[Humblefish]

I can not emphasize the importance of reading the two links provided below to assist you in dealing with Marine Ich. To treat Marine Ich one must understand the life cycle and viable treatment options. Remember just because you can not see the parasite does not mean it's not there.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

You'll want to go fallow in your DT for 76 days. Take out all the fish and run TTM. Copper is an option but I would suggest Copper Safe or CopperPower instead of cuppramine. I prefer TTM since angels can be sensitive to copper and it's much quicker and doesn't involve chemicals.
Here's how to do that. It's easier than it looks, but does require some work.
http://reef2reef.com/threads/spars-tank-transfer-method.209690/

^^I would take the advice of these two ladies.

 

[4FordFamily]

X3 or 4

 

[Reefahholic]

If it's truely ICH, you'll need to catch the fish and put them in a QT tank.

I would not put anything in my DT. Well, maybe Prazipro, but that's about it. I'm not even sure about that one to be honest. I've always treated in a QT. It's too expensive to treat a large volume. Unless you have no other choice.

Back to dealing with ICH. IMO, I would do TTM method. It's fast, easy, and I've been 100% successful with it for multiple fish. Plus you can run Prazipro in the tank while you're doing the 13 day transfers. Follow the 72 hour rule. I keep my transfers on point. Pick a time and stick with it. If you run copper, it needs to be at a therapeutic level. I would ramp up "slowly" over 5-7 days. This formula below is accurate.

Cupramine Dosing Formula:

(.381) * (strength of dose) * (gallons being treated) = mL of Cupramine to dose

Example: (.381) * (.5mg/L) * (10.5 gallons) = 2mL of Cupramine to dose

Like mentioned above, you'll need to go fallow for 72-76 days. That will get you in the 90%+ success rate of stopping the life cycle.

BTW...does anybody have the data for the 76 day fallow period? I missed that somewhere.

 

[Reefahholic]

As far as I know, the evidence we have recorded for the longest period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

 

[Steve Jones]

Hey all. Appreciate all the help with the possible ich on my clownfish. However, woke up this AM to find both of my clowns dead in the tank. I had done a water change last night as one still looked bad and the other looked ok and my nitrates had spiked at 25 or so. Ammonia and nitrites were at 0. And it was time anyway. I picked up some Herbtana today as a preventative measure just in case to hit the tank with until I can figure out exactly what's going on. But after taking to Paul (the owner of Aquatica and one incredibly knowledgeable fish/reef/corals guy!) and looking at some photos and talking about the symptoms and that it killed so quick and just the clowns and everyone else in the tank looks fine, I think it was Brooklynellosis that did them in. Based on their look, loss of appetite, speed at which it happened, their staying in one spot, that is was JUST the clowns presenting symptoms, etc. For me the biggest aha moment was when I read that a symptom was a color fade. I hadn't even noticed that until after learning what I did from Paul. When I compare photos taken a day or so ago to those a week or so ago there is an obvious color fade. Just didn't notice that over time. Maybe another piece of husbandry needs to be a weekly photo of each fish to catch things like this in the future? I think the hardest part of this hobby for me is being 2 hours from face-to-face meetings with knowledgeable folks and emergency supplies. Glad this forum and others exist. Thanks again for all the help, advice and insight!

 

[Reefahholic]

I think you're probably exactly right. To me...Brook is the second hardest to eliminate. It's a very stubborn protozoan that multiplies rapidly and kills rapidly. I've been successful with formalin dips and baths with double and triple the recommended dose and times. Plus discarding all water from the dips and changing tanks too.

 

[Reefahholic]

Steve don't be fooled by products like herbtana or a "new cure" for ICH. It's a mere bandaid and doesn't fix the problem. It will help temporarily, but the ICH will just come back. We know it's not ICH now so you don't have to worry. The problem with Brook is actually worse.

 

[Steve Jones]

I understand. I guess the way I look at it, it won't hurt to use this right now. When you get a really bad cut you need to stop the blood flow before you stitch it up. Lol. So let me ask - how do I get the Brook "out" of the tank? I have no more clowns in there. Do I need to dip the others? A Flame Angel, a Coral Beauty Angel, 2 Pajama Cadinalfish and a Melanarus Wrasse. Are they at risk from Brook?

 

[melypr1985]

I understand. I guess the way I look at it, it won't hurt to use this right now. When you get a really bad cut you need to stop the blood flow before you stitch it up. Lol. So let me ask - how do I get the Brook "out" of the tank? I have no more clowns in there. Do I need to dip the others? A Flame Angel, a Coral Beauty Angel, 2 Pajama Cadinalfish and a Melanarus Wrasse. Are they at risk from Brook?

Brook can and does affect other types of fish besides clowns. They are at risk, but you can take them out and treat them and leave the tank fallow. I'll have to get the info on that for you. Just a sec...