Nitrate dosing irritates zoas and gorgonians

[KonradTO]

Hi all,
I noticed that when I dose nitrates some of my zoa and gorgonian frags show signs of irritation (they retract the polyps) for one hour or so. I observe this consistently at +4ppm swings as well as +0.5ppm.
Anyone observed this before?

 

[KStatefan]

What are you dosing for nitrate?

 

[KonradTO]

What are you dosing for nitrate?

Good question. I was sure it was sodium nitrate but I just looked on the company website (ARKA, Plants N) and it's not specified. I contacted them for further info, maybe I will interrupt the dosing for now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Good question. I was sure it was sodium nitrate but I just looked on the company website (ARKA, Plants N) and it's not specified. I contacted them for further info, maybe I will interrupt the dosing for now.

Nitrogen fertilizer for every freshwater aquarium | ARKA® Biotechnologie

Specially developed nitrogen fertilizer Supports magnificent plant growth Prevents your aquatic plants from suffering from nitrogen deficiency Free of phosphate Easy and Safe to use

www.arka-biotech.de

They do not say what it is, but "specially developed" is either a useless term, or its something unusual.

Your result might just be coincidence, but if I saw that effect, I would not use the product.

Are you allowing it to mix in well before it hits corals? Like in a sump or something?

 

[KonradTO]

Nitrogen fertilizer for every freshwater aquarium | ARKA® Biotechnologie

Specially developed nitrogen fertilizer Supports magnificent plant growth Prevents your aquatic plants from suffering from nitrogen deficiency Free of phosphate Easy and Safe to use

www.arka-biotech.de

They do not say what it is, but "specially developed" is either a useless term, or its something unusual.

Yes. It is also unusual that there is no info about composition in the safety sheets on their website. In Germany usually they are quite diligent on such matters. I suspect it's urea or something like that at this point.

Your result might just be coincidence, but if I saw that effect, I would not use the product.

I noticed the same behaviour multiple times. This morning I dosed just to verify if it happens as well at lower amounts (only 1ml of product) and I got the usual response from those 2 frags. Intrestingly only one frag of zoa and the gorgonian seems affected, the other corals look ok (no SPS though).

Are you allowing it to mix in well before it hits corals? Like in a sump or something?

Yes I usually dose in the overflow so it has time to go through the fuge before coming back to the dt.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'd try a different nitrate source for a while and see if the effect is different.

 

[KonradTO]

They just replied. It's a mix of sodium nitrate and ammonium chloride.

 

[KonradTO]

They just replied. It's a mix of sodium nitrate and ammonium chloride.

edit.
I noticed they have a similar product branded for saltwater https://www.arka-biotech.de/en/products/product-single-pictures/basic-n which also is composed by sodium nitrate and ammonium chloride.
I suspect is the ammonium part which is irritating the zoas, I am wondering if the marine version has a different proportion..

 

[KonradTO]

When I asked what is the proportion of sodium nitrate to ammonium chloride they said that they cannot tell me.
Well, the recipe of my grandma's pasta with eggplant is secret. What I am dumping in my tank should not be..
edit.
I noticed they have a similar product branded for saltwater https://www.arka-biotech.de/en/products/product-single-pictures/basic-n which also is composed by sodium nitrate and ammonium chloride.
I suspect is the ammonium part which is irritating the zoas, I am wondering if the marine version has a different proportion..
@arkaquaticstx

These are the details of the marine version from their website.. here is not secret
Substance name sodium nitrate
Registration number (REACH) 01-2119488221-41-xxxx
EC number 231-554-3
CAS number 7631-99-4
Mixture content 10%-15%
Molecular formula NaNO₃
molecular weight 84.99 g/mol
Substance name ammonium chloride
EC number 235-186-4
CAS number 12125-02-9
Mixture content 0.05-0.1%
Molecular formula NH₄CI
molecular weight 53.49 g/mol

it looks the amount of ammonium is minimal here..

Edit. (Num 2)
The customer service decided to tell me the composition of the Plants N as well. It is basically very similar if not the same as this one.
The question is: is 1 ml of 0.1-0.2% ammonium cloride solution enough to cause a reaction in frags? it seems quite low to me for giving any problem..

 

[Eagle_Steve]

For nitrate dosing, I would recommend something like the below. Cheap, will last a ling time, is food grade and you can use "james planted tank calculator" to figure out the dose. Just use the drop down for potassium nitrate and dose a hair less than it suggests. Sodium nitrate is a little more concentrated than potassium nitrate, but not much more.

It is always good to dose, test, figure what the dose does to your tank, and then adjust dose from there.

 

[KonradTO]

For nitrate dosing, I would recommend something like the below. Cheap, will last a ling time, is food grade and you can use "james planted tank calculator" to figure out the dose. Just use the drop down for potassium nitrate and dose a hair less than it suggests. Sodium nitrate is a little more concentrated than potassium nitrate, but not much more.

It is always good to dose, test, figure what the dose does to your tank, and then adjust dose from there.

Do you know if there are problems with dosing potassium as well?
Unfortunately sodium and potassium nitrates are not legally sold in EU for safety reasons (people making BOOM out of them)

 

[Eagle_Steve]

For nitrate dosing, I would recommend something like the below. Cheap, will last a ling time, is food grade and you can use "james planted tank calculator" to figure out the dose. Just use the drop down for potassium nitrate and dose a hair less than it suggests. Sodium nitrate is a little more concentrated than potassium nitrate, but not much more.

It is always good to dose, test, figure what the dose does to your tank, and then adjust dose from there.

Also, as my German is horrible, here is a smaller version I use that is sold in the USA. Use this to compare, just to make sure I translated it correctly lol.

 

[KonradTO]

Also, as my German is horrible, here is a smaller version I use that is sold in the USA. Use this to compare, just to make sure I translated it correctly lol.

Not sure why but I cannot see the link..

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Do you know if there are problems with dosing potassium as well?
Unfortunately sodium and potassium nitrates are not legally sold in EU for safety reasons (people making BOOM out of them)

You may be able to try calcium nitrate, as I believe I saw some other items using it for the curing of meat.

As for potassium, I have never really dosed it as have not needed to. I did use a brand of stump remover for a while to dose nitrates and a few ICP tests showed elevated potassium, so I swapped to sodium nitrate.

Looking at Amazon.de, there are quite a few nitrate containing products, but I see what you mean about the nitrate thing. They are all lower concentrations of nitrate, when compared directly to other products here in the states.

Also, what is the main goal of dosing nitrates? Is your tank just consuming them? Is it possible to feed more, skim drier, or just use the skimmer for aeration and leave the cup off?

 

[KonradTO]

You may be able to try calcium nitrate, as I believe I saw some other items using it for the curing of meat.

Mmm interesting. I could dose that for calcium maybe if it does not mess up my 2 part dosing, but it remains to be seen how much NO3 is dosed compared to Ca, I am really bad in chemestry, I will need to look up that.

As for potassium, I have never really dosed it as have not needed to. I did use a brand of stump remover for a while to dose nitrates and a few ICP tests showed elevated potassium, so I swapped to sodium nitrate.

Looking at Amazon.de, there are quite a few nitrate containing products, but I see what you mean about the nitrate thing. They are all lower concentrations of nitrate, when compared directly to other products here in the states.

Yes, if you try really hard to get some without a permit you actually might receive some visitors from the police XD better not lol

Also, what is the main goal of dosing nitrates? Is your tank just consuming them? Is it possible to feed more, skim drier, or just use the skimmer for aeration and leave the cup off?

I think my fuge is too good at exporting it, as I had finally 25 ppm few weeks ago after doing a 3 days blackout, but it dropped again to 5 ppm within few days. I want to keep it higher because I finally am seiing some improvements in my mushrooms and soft corals with higher nitrates. I also am flushing already the skimmate back in the sump.
For now I tried to reduce the light in the sump and feeding more, but I just finished battling dinos so I am not very comfortable at changing things quickly in the system, and nitrate dosing seems to me the safest option at this point.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Mmm interesting. I could dose that for calcium maybe if it does not mess up my 2 part dosing, but it remains to be seen how much NO3 is dosed compared to Ca, I am really bad in chemestry, I will need to look up that.

Yes, if you try really hard to get some without a permit you actually might receive some visitors from the police XD better not lol

I think my fuge is too good at exporting it, as I had finally 25 ppm few weeks ago after doing a 3 days blackout, but it dropped again to 5 ppm within few days. I want to keep it higher because I finally am seiing some improvements in my mushrooms and soft corals with higher nitrates. I also am flushing already the skimmate back in the sump.
For now I tried to reduce the light in the sump and feeding more, but I just finished battling dinos so I am not very comfortable at changing things quickly in the system, and nitrate dosing seems to me the safest option at this point.

I hear ya on the dinos.

If it was me, I would reduce the photoperiod on the fuge and feed the fish a little more. All while testing here to there to make sure I stay near my target number.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The product composition you show should not be a problem if mixed in well. I’d still try something else.