Nitrate Issue Turned Emergency

[ccombs]

I would plan on doing several ICP-OES tests spread out over a period of time. Like one now, one in a month or a couple months (depending on how things are looking), and possibly another down the road. That way you have a baseline by doing one now. If you don’t know where you are starting from then it will make it harder to ascertain what actions you have taken have led to the correction of the problem. The ones down the road (presumably when things are doing better) won’t be able to tell you where you’ve been. Just something to think about.

Great call! I thought about it and it makes sense, I will get that process started tomorrow. Appreciate it!

FWIW I started a log book recently, or at least once I started the NoPox. I am curious to see how the new tests compare to the API stuff that is being retired. First time I will probably test with both to see the discrepancy.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Hmmm. Did I misread the dosing info? or are you just doing a low dose for your tank? I estimate I have 25 gallons of actual water in the tank and more than 10 NO3, so I went the 3ml route.

I originally started off with 5ml/day when I was at 160ppm. Red Sea doesn't recommend this, but I researched other types of dosing that work in a similar fashion and found some instances where you could do an 'emergency' dose of a large amount short term. Based on that I dosed 5ml for a little bit before coming down to 3ml.

I don't know too much about shrimp behaviors. But I do know they are very active, they move around and look for food all the time, and they aren't molting excessively, so that is what I am basing my 'they are doing well' conclusion off of.

Recently I read that excess molting by shrimps is a sign of them trying to remove toxins from their bodies. I would think that would mean that I do not have a chlorine or other metal problem since they are molting on schedule so far. I am still going to test to be sure, but that gives me a bit of hope on that front.

Yes I use a reduced dosage that I’ve found works well for my tank. If it did Red Sea’s recommended dosage I wouldn’t have any nutrients. Just wanted you to have a “frame of reference” for how extraordinary what’s going on with your tank is.

 

[ccombs]

Yes I use a reduced dosage that I’ve found works well for my tank. If it did Red Sea’s recommended dosage I wouldn’t have any nutrients. Just wanted you to have a “frame of reference” for how extraordinary what’s going on with your tank is.

Understood, thank you for the clarification!

 

[ccombs]

You might be onto something with regards to your lighting being inadequate, coupled with extremely low phosphates you might have found the perfect way to keep reef rock sparkling white.

Maybe the brand new rock look will become the next big look in reefing. If so, I have a product that will keep rocks looking new! Who needs proper water chemistry anyway lolololol

 

[Lasse]

Thank you everyone for your advice. At this point I am receiving a lot of conflicting advice so I am settling on my first plan of attack and will not deviate from it until it is 100% complete. If that ends up not working I will circle back and try the conflicting ideas lol.

This process will need some time, so I will get back to you with how this ends up going.

Thanks!

IMO - this is a very wise position. The best to judge is the one that looks at the tank every day. Our inputs is more like a bank of ideas.

And I think that your last post is a good plan of handling. One thing - as @Rick.45cal stated - do a ICP test now - I´m rather sure that his conclusions about no copper issue is right and I do not think you have a chloramine issue either. Low light, no PO4, some hermits -> maybe the reason for your clean stones

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

If this is correct I am badly informed and I have to review some articles about ammonia poisoning! Do you have references supporting this statement?
See Ammonia production, excretion, toxicity, and defense in fish: a review by Yuen K. , and Chew F.
The ammonia level in the water column may effect the presence of ammonia in the bloodstream. A high TAN ( Total Ammonia Nitrogen NH3 +NH4) level of +- 0.4mg/l may become a problem ( this is only +- 0,0045 mg/l NH3-N at 25° pH 8) When fish has to swim in such water for a certain period of time fish may show respiration problems and may not recover.

Many fishes are ammonotelic but some species can detoxify ammonia to glutamine or urea.
Certain fish species can accumulate high levels of ammonia in the brain or defense against ammonia toxicity by enhancing the effectiveness of ammonia excretion through active NH + 4 transport, manipulation of ambient pH, or reduction in ammonia permeability through the branchial and cutaneous epithelia (ref:YuenK. and ChewF2010)

There is no general rule but in closed marine aquaculture systems 0,4 ppm TAN is considered critical for growing fish. As in aquaculture fish is harvested after a relative short time these limits are set to avoid acute problems. Growing 80kg fish or shrimp/1000l from larvae till maturity needs a different approach and a very effective ammonium reduction system.
In an aquarium, a live support system, we try to keep a few fish alive as long as possible, a complete different approach, also for determining toxicity accumulation. As the bio-load is very low an acute problem may be solved but long term ammonia poisoning will take place without notice.

Ammonium does accumulate in tissue, brain cell membranes etc, and may kill a fish on the long term of slow poisoning., just that little bit to much.

Slow ammonia poisoning is about Ammonia accumulation between cell membranes in the cell wall , it may not to be removed by respiration as it may not enter the blood stream. It may accumulate from the day the fish was born, was captured and was prepared to be transported, during transport etc.. everywhere where it is confronted with free ammonia, The accumulation may continue until it becomes critical and the fish will die to young from old age symptoms. No need for high levels, contact time is enough.
This means an effective carrying capacity, the capacity to reduce ammonium, should be installed at all time. As most home reef aquaria have banned the bio the installed carrying capacity may be very limited.

Nitrate should not be considered a problem as the nitrogen content is easy to master.

Or my knowledge is out of time. I got my basic understanding of fish and NH3/NH4 back in 84-86 studying fish physiology among other things. But I do not think that I´m outdated in the most important understanding of the problem.

I know that there has been a discussion of the active transport of NH4 from the fish into the water – some ideas that it is only passive NH3 transport has risen. However – it can be possible for low pH fresh water environment because blood pH among fishes is between 7.6 – 8 and therefore the blood will always have a higher concentration of NH3 compared with the water – however - for high pH environment (pH > 8) it will not work that way and active NH4 transport is the only option. I have a huge experiences of fish farming in fresh water (and aquarium experiences) and never ever have run into fishes that normal is adapted to low pH environment can´t adapt to pH > 8 in the long run. This should be impossible if there was only passive diffusion of NH3 that balance the content of NH3/NH4 in the bloodstream. My thoughts is that all fishes have the capability to active transport NH4 from the bloodstream into the water against a concentration gradient for sure and for salt water species is a demand. I think that the possibility of active transport of NH4 always is present but in some environmental situations (pH < 7.6) the passive transfer of NH3 through the gills is the most normal pathway because of higher speed and lower energy consumption, but in cases of pH > 7.6 – the active transport is of more importance’s

A high TAN ( Total Ammonia Nitrogen NH3 +NH4) level of +- 0.4mg/l may become a problem ( this is only +- 0,0045 mg/l NH3-N at 25° pH 8)

I think you are around a tenfold too low here – all my sources say that 0.4 mg/l NH3/NH4 correspond to 0.045 mg/l NH3 at pH 8 and 25 C (example) – both for the whole molecule and for the N part. I prefer to use the whole molecule (NH3 and NH4) when I discuss toxicology instead of only the N part that´s common in environmental issues. This because it is the whole molecule that is toxic not only the N. For NH4 and NH3 – there is however not a huge difference – but for NO2 – it is

However – before I write something based on my old knowledge – I always do a Google in order to see if it is any updated information and I did it in this case too. Surprisingly I found that the LC 50 levels for pure NH3 for saltwater species was higher than I had expect – between 0.5 and up to 1.5 ppm. A long way from the outside water standard of 0.02 ppm NH3 for long time exposure of both fresh and saltwater species (EPA)

How can it be in this way?

I think that´s is very important to differ between acute toxic effects (lethal) and long-time effects (sublethal). And I agree with you that long time exposures for NH3/NH4 above 0.4 ppm can be of concern in the long run. But the reason for me is not a direct toxic effect of the NH3/NH4 complex – instead it is a result of stress and energy demanding processes. The organism needs to obtain homeostasis in the body and if it demands active processes in order to obtain no toxic levels of NH3/NH4 in the blood stream – it cost energy. Energy that could be used to other things like growth, maintain a defence system and so on.

This point of view will make it lesser dramatic when you read low level of NH3/NH4 in your water (IMO – 99.99 % of the cases with detectable amounts of NH3/NH4 is about newly started aquarium) – just take it easy and do the right things. I must state that most of the combined test (NH3/NH4) is of low accuracies and can´t be trusted. Do not panic if you read 0.2 ppm NH3/NH4 – it can be wrong, and if is not – it is not acute toxic.


I agree with you that in a mature SW tank with a lot of corals and other life – the half time of a free NH3/NH4 molecule is milliseconds It will be used directly of some organism.

It is however a difference in a monoculture recirculated fish farm – the nitrification cycle is the only way of removing NH3/NH4. In such a system – the NH3/NH4 level vary through the day - zero in the morning – rising during feeding time and decreasing during no feeding time. This is the reason why recirculated sea water farms (read high pH) is very tricky to run if they are a monoculture.

By the way - I asked the OP if it was OK to discuss this in this thread - he say "go for it"

I can´t read your reference - but I would love to do that - can you attach it as a PDF file?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I personally lean towards that it might be more of a phosphates problem then a nitrates problem. Having no phosphates throws the Redfield ratio out of whack. Definitely dump the API test kits. For Phosphates, get the Hanna Checker for phosphates (ULR). I had the opposite problem then you do now. My phosphates were high, but no nitrates. The minute I started to add nitrates to my tank the phosphates went down. For 3 years I have been fighting with this tank with coral keep dying after 3-6 months in my tank, coralline being stubborn. Coralline never grew on my glass ever, after about a month of keeping nitrates at 3-5ppm, it is now exploding on my glass. Now I test my phosphates and nitrates religiously, every 3-4 days. And my nitrates do drop within that time, meaning having to add more nitrates because phosphates skyrockets when nitrates gets below 3ppm. So...my thinking is you might need to add phosphates or at least stop the GFO, if its phosphates.

This brings us back to the essentials. Why nitrate and phosphate may build up in a well lit aquarium and is not used up by photo autotrophs not needing organic carbon and which have an unlimited energy supply? In most cases it may be brought back to limited availability of other building materials. In a reef aquarium a skimmer removes constantly a part of the building materials (+- 30% of the organics) but does this very selective leaving polar and hydrophilic compounds this way creating an increasing unbalance in the availability of nitrogen compounds and other building materials. Changing the removal rate of the skimmer may solve a lot. In this case GFO is used which may remove to much phosphates making it impossible to maintain the high growth needed to remove all ammonia after the nitrification capacity has been removed by dosing carbo hydrates . The presence of a measurable amount of TAN ( with normal test kit) should always be a warning something is seriously wrong.
What is measured is what is left over and does not tell a thing about the daily availability and or production. Measurable levels of nitrate and phosphate should be present in a closed system at all times . When using GFO or an other absorber use it in a small reactor or refuge, this way the removal rate can easily be managed by managing the flow. Most of the time GFO is used to limit algae growth, but what is wrong about algae growth as it is the key indicator leading to a healthy balanced system?

 

[FrancineJ]

I will try that, I have done it both ways and admittedly it is currently skimming wet because the 9001 is very sensitive on adjustments so I was just happy I could get it to skim wet or dry haha. I had to replace the impeller and did a full cleaning so I lost my slime coating and had to break it in again haha.

I watch the salinity very closely, especially since I don't have an ATO. With how small the skimmer cup is I would be surprised if it was causing anything huge, especially since I top off so often.

I have an AIO tank as well and just a point in noted... if my skimmer was skimming wet instead of topping off with ro/di water check your salinity and top off with saltwater instead.... especially if it’s really watery and a light green color.....

 

[FrancineJ]

I was originally testing with API strips for my main 5 tests, but when nitrates got out of hand I got more strips to verify, then I got the API marine kit and reef kit with the drops and test tubes, etc. I do not know what my LFS used when I took it in for testing.

The API kit I find is ok with fresh water but not so much with saltwater... I tend to find the Red Sea or salifert tests more reliable.... or Hanna checkers if you can afford them

 

[FrancineJ]

Hmm, good to know, and yeah, I am trying to focus on whatever my large issue is here. I am hopeful that when I find that, everything else will start to fall into place.

I am using the aquatic life RODI that has the twist in units. I am wondering if I have a faulty cartridge or something. The chlorine test will help me figure that out when I get back.

I really appreciate how much knowledge you have shared!

IMO even if you had a faulty cartridge it should still be better then the tap water you were using

 

[FrancineJ]

Just

I will be completely open and honest with everything, no pride here, I just want a solution haha.

I used API 8.2 because my pH was at 7.8 and I wanted to raise it. I dosed it and everything was fine, it raised my pH to 8 and alk stayed the same. The next time I did a water change a few days later, I added the API product again because it said a second dose might be necessary. Well, when I added the newly mixed water to the tank for my water change, that is when the alk spiked from 9 to 20 and it was right before I went out of town for a few days. I will get home Thursday and do a water change and hopefully get that down, my wife tells me that everything is still alive. I just had her test Alk and it is at 17 as of a few minutes ago.

The issue with the Alk has all happened within the past few days, the nitrate issue has been a few months.

I am currently only dosing NoPox at 3ml every day. Below are the other things I have dosed.

API 8.2 as stated above.
API Water Conditioner Before I Used RODI
SeaChem Prime when I first started using NoPox, but then felt uncomfortable with that so went to just NoPox.
I read an article somewhere about using Prime and NoPox at the same time, but then when I looked into what each product does exactly and what they are trying to accomplish, I decided to drop the prime.

just FYI... a PH of 7.8 is fine for a tank that is mostly FO tank as you said you only had a couple corals... also what time of day were you testing the PH? At night or in the morning.... I would stop trying to raise it right now...I have a nano tank (biocube 32) and my PH is between 8 and 7.8 and I have corals... fish.... inverts.... and no live rock like you... I started my tank with ammonia and biopsira and used only Caribsea Liferock and I have coralline algae growing all over already....

 

[FrancineJ]

You said your chromis met a untimely death can you please explain this?

I am wondering if the OP added more than 1 chromis and they picked each other off... not sure because I couldn’t read all the pages....

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think you are around a tenfold too low here – all my sources say that 0.4 mg/l NH3/NH4 correspond to 0.045 mg/l NH3 at pH 8 and 25 C (example) – both for the whole molecule and for the N part. I prefer to use the whole molecule (NH3 and NH4) when I discuss toxicology instead of only the N part that´s common in environmental issues. This because it is the whole molecule that is toxic not only the N. For NH4 and NH3 – there is however not a huge difference – but for NO2 – it is



By the way - I asked the OP if it was OK to discuss this in this thread - he say "go for it"

I can´t read your reference - but I would love to do that - can you attach it as a PDF file?

Sincerely Lasse

I used NH3-N not NH3 as it is easy for to make calculations. There is the same amount of nitrogen in ammonia and ammonium. There is less nitrogen in 1mg NH4 as there is in 1mg NH3. 1mg NH3 will become >1mg NH4. As on these fora meanly ppm is used ( which in seawater is not equal to 1mg/l) I prefer to use NH3-N ; NH4-N ; NO2-N and NO3-N when talking about nitrogen. Weight of TAN changes with temp and pH. NH3 transition is given in %. Difficult to compare in ppm when using molecules.
For correct measurement of TAN one has to know what the used test kit measures exactly.

Maybe you can open a thread for such a discussion. For me such a discussion has only value when statements made are properly referenced and this is mostly a problem on fora. I try to explain it in a way it makes sense to me but in fact the nitrogen transport and ammonium accumulation ( becoming usable NH3 but lowering pH to a critical point) in cell membranes is very complex. Finally it is free hydrogen which can not be removed in time and accumulates causing the critical situation.

One has to register to enter most articles in the Makazi Baharini wiki. When using the link in my previous reply above you are able to read an article about the skimmer but when using a link in the article access will be denied. On the denied page there should be a link to the registration page. After registration one will receive a login code. Most articles contain protected content and are read only. Articles with =en in the link are translations in English from the original page written in Dutch.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If nitrates build up fast for no obvious reason this may be caused by very limited availability of one of the other building materials. As nitrogen can not be used up by heterotrophic and photo-autotrophic growth the nitrogen is available for nitrification which is based on respiration and needs very little building materials. In most cases an installed nitrifying community may be self-supporting for building materials as they are recycled constantly within the biofilm.

If in such a situation, with a high nitrate level, corals and or other creatures start to die off most will blame the nitrate level. In most cases it is not a high level of one or more nutrients causing problems but the cause must be found in the reason why the nutrients are able to accumulate. In such a situation removing absorbers or downrate the skimmer will have effect on the nitrate level and show the underlying causes.
Starting to battle the nitrate level with carbo hydrate dosing, based on growth, instead of solving the cause, will only increase the problem.

Nitrate considered not needed can always be removed safely, without messing up the previously installed balance, just by managing and closing the nitrogen cycle. For doing this the use of a bio-filter may be considered as it makes the nitrogen content in a system easily manageable. Personally I do not understand why most reefers have banned the use of a biofilter for nitrogen management.

 

[ccombs]

Quick update as today is day 1 of my plan.

As I am getting things going and also doing my weekly WC, I notice 3 things.

1) Empty hermit shell (assuming death and I don't currently have extra shells in tank) I am not 100% confident that it was a brand new death. About a week ago I found what I thought to be a molted exoskeleton. Considering shrimp look great and other hermits are chugging along, I am not getting too worried at the moment. If more start dying rapidly I will update.

2) Potential fin rot on angel

3) Clownfish has single white spot, is this ich?

My angel has this little cave sort of thing that he hangs out in most of the day. A lot of the time he will just hang out in there, so nothing abnormal. When I looked in there to check on him, every now and then he starts to tip over but quickly catch himself. It isn't often nor does it look serious, I just want to be sure all the info is available.

Also, I wasn't able to get a picture of him that showed much, but I did get the following picture of his fin, see below. Appears to be fin rot?

Here is the best picture I could get of his side.

Here is the clownfish, first picture shows small white dot near tail. I had to net him against the glass because he was moving so much. I cannot tell if stuff near face is just stuff floating in tank since I just scraped glass.

For reference, here are my other inhabitants, let me know if you see anything I don't.

I was also taking a look at where I had some browning of the rocks, and it correlates with what would be a hot spot from my lighting. It is only really on the top.

I think I am just expecting my GSP and Xenia to be losses at this point. If they come back, that would be great, if not, I will try again with fresh frags when the time comes.

Lastly, here is what my filter floss looks like after one week. The first week in the media caddy it was terrible, but I think that was just due to if finally receiving proper flow. Here is a picture of a pretty standard look after a week in the overflow.

 

[ccombs]

Day 1 Test Results (Still Using API, New Tests Have Not Arrived)

Specific Gravity-1.025
Temp-80F
pH-8.0
Alk (dKH)-Color Changed Slightly at 10, Full Change at 14
Ammonia-Between 0-.25
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-20
Phosphate-Between 0-2.5

Cheato Now Arriving Tomorrow
NoPox still 3ml Daily
Kassil 160we Arriving Tomorrow, Will Install Monday

 

[Lasse]

For me such a discussion has only value when statements made are properly referenced and this is mostly a problem on fora.

For me - a discussion is only of interest if I can follow the way of thinking – and get explanation for that or that in a way that I can understand and follow. Today – every one can Google and get an idea if something is true or not – Of cause my point of view is based on sciences but I will seldom back it up with a link to a paper that is behind a pay wall or in a language that I or other do not understand.


When I do mass balances, I use concentrations as NH4-N, NH3-N, NO2-N or NO3-N because you need to follow the N through the system. When I talk about toxic effect from different nitrogen species, I use concentration of the whole molecule because it is the whole molecule that have a toxic behaviour – not the nitrogen atom. Most references of toxic concentration is also expressed as concentration of the whole molecule. It is true that mg/l is more exact than ppm – In saltwater 1 mg/l is 0.978 ppm and 1 ppm -> 1.023 mg/l – ppm is mg/kilo.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[H3rm1tCr@b]

Get an icp test done by Triton. And it sounds to me that every time you introduce a fish the parameters spike. The tank seems to be recycling. So it has to be either something has been breaking down in the tank and causing this, or chlorine or chloramine has been introduced and kicked it all off again. No algae on the rock at 6 months is for sure odd. I agree with another poster that the fish deaths look more like nitrite poisoning, but then the inverts are just rocking along...I'm perplexed, and going to have to hit my wife up for her to use that Bachelor of science with a major in chemistry we will be paying for until we retire, for some more ideas.

Yeah I was also going to ask about the shrimp. If its nitrates, the shrimp FOR SURE would've been the first to go. I think I had nitrate and phosphate issues for a long time, then it somehow started growing corelline and stuff once I took out all of the caulerpa taking over

 

[ccombs]

Can anyone confirm or deny if this is ich? The rest of the apparent spots are just things in the water, the circled part is the only actual spot.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Yeah I was also going to ask about the shrimp. If its nitrates, the shrimp FOR SURE would've been the first to go. I think I had nitrate and phosphate issues for a long time, then it somehow started growing corelline and stuff once I took out all of the caulerpa taking over

Why? How and why nitrates may harm shrimp? Or other organisms and corals? What is the reason to conclude nitrate is dangerous?
For aqua culture of shrimp nitrate levels above 225 mg/l must be avoided as more will influence the survival rate. At a nitrate level of 910mg/l the survival rate of shrimp is still 15%.
NH3 and NO2 are extremely toxic to shrimp. In aquaculture bio filters are used and one may consider the transition from ammonia via nitrite to nitrate is not interrupted and is very reliable.

My opinion nitrate is not a problem but the intermediates are toxic for most organisms. Nitrate is safely stored nitrogen which may be used and is needed in a closed system .

Nitrogen management should never be a problem and the nitrate level can easily be managed by closing the nitrogen cycle.