Nitrate/Phosphate Imbalance

Wow, that is a very short but very wide ranging question Randy ;-)

But I appreciate your interest on some of the backgrounds for my previous statements.


This goes now into the very very very complex world of Microbiology that is in my opinion more than highly important to the success on a Tank system. For the other readers and followers that are interested in this subject I keep this still reasonable generic.

As you guys know Randy/Hans Werner, bacteria strains in the tank are the most influencing part, and form the microbiology that is terrible complex and been affected by an endless amount of factors, in my opinion the reason for the statement that every tank is different which it is due to that.

An imbalance in the bacteria biology (decades ago called monoculture), is in theoretical measures being noticed when the nutrients in the tank are going out of whack when so far the normal methods of filtration have been applied and worked out in a way that the tank had nutrients in an acceptable range before.

This can be observed by example:
Nitrates increasing while no or very low phosphates are present (very often to see)
Increasing Phosphates while Nitrates are very low or non-detectable anymore
Alongside these two difficult to resolve situations, any situation where one of the two mayor nutrients is missing are leading down the road to bacterial imbalances.

Another side effect to the above is certain Nuisance algae and very often Cyano issues since these bacteria do benefit from the absence/reduction of the probiotic bacteria (good bacteria) strains.


As many people know, certain carbs are required to populate and overpopulate the good bacteria in the Nitrogen cycle. These bacteria are not just a few ones that do just consume nutrients. Each bacteria strain has a tendency to consume preferred certain wastes in our tanks.
Means different carbon additives do enhance bacteria, but in different efficiencies.

I personally have seen and experienced this very well by applying V,VV,VSV & VSV+A carbon dosing methods on my own tanks for years now.
A few notes:
Sugars, Coke, Honey, Malts for example intend to feed white bacteria more than others
Vodka pure or higher concentrations in VSV Carbon mixes seem to increase Nitrate reducing bacteria and Cyano as well some pathogens
Vinegar with less amount of Vodka seem to be more efficient when trying to reduce Po4, less effect on Pathogens and Cyano.
Ammonium seem to fuel the bacteria of the first part of the N2 cycle to Superboost Nitrate reduction when certain criteria are met on the bacteria of the second part of the cycle.
Aminos do actually support overpopulation and fuel bacteria of many strains of bacteria and fungi, careful while it feeds pathogens when probiotic bacteria is limited.


Long story short, depending of what you feed and important limiting your bacteria with, different strains will result in different waste and nutrient consumptions. To make it difficult, the supply chain of bacterial foods will decide which bacteria strains will compete out the others.

Now you may see where I’m heading to. A limited and reduced strain that is mostly consuming Phosphates will have issues to populate back to a healthy balanced bacterial count, while being outcompeted from other bacteria strains.

It all goes back to Liebig’s law of the minimum at the end which applies to almost everything on this planet ;-)


Evidence???? Well, this bacterial behavior is well known by companies that do produce today’s engineered bacterial cocktails that basically do one particular job and die slowly off until the next dose. You can imagine they won’t like to share their practices and secrets.

Most of my facts and experiences are based on years of education and trial due to published books, articles, study reports as well as many conversations with people in the waste management, biochem, saltwater related and medical industries. Not to forget many of my Reefer friends all over the globe, as well some experts in the hobby ;-)
Most interesting studies are to be found in the biochemistry and medical field, where the funding is provided for bacterial behavioral studies including the equipment needed for those.
I have received often from marine biologists and chemists (some of them are well known to you) basically sort of confirmation of the above assumptions.

I’m running out of time a bit and hope I covered my points so far.

-Andre

Thanks for the explanation... so if I understand what you're saying: I have an imbalance in bacteria and need to increase the bacteria that feeds on Po4 because there is plenty of bacteria present that feeds on No3. How would I go about adding this bacteria? Is it something like the bottles that many LFS sell?

Also are there any possible negative side effects to adding bacteria?

Finally is there any negative side effect to adding amino acids (acro power) besides a possible small case of Cyanobacteria?

I really want to do the right thing here but I'm getting conflicting info... however, if all the info provided has little or no side effects, I'd be open to trying more than one method to solve this issue.

In the end, I'd like 2 things here: for my Po4 to go down so the hair algae goes away and and for my corals to gain some color back (especially sps).

Thanks everyone!

So your saying there's bacteria that eat only or primarily no3 and then others that prefer po4? And that these strains are not present in sufficient numbers in our tanks and additives?

But still the endrun of what your saying is the op should dose no3 because it's low. But not because the coral needs it, but because the bacteria does.
 
Andre, very intersting contribution and in lage parts I can follow you. There are only some important details where I disagree.
- It is not the bacteria that are influencing the nutrient levels (or only in a very limited amount e. g. polyphosphate accumulating bacteria) but it is vice versa. The nutrient levels determine what kind of bacteria will grow. This is even true for denitrifying bacteria.
- It is not the bacteria that damage corals in the situation of a nutrient imbalance but it is the nutrient imbalance itself. The hermatypic coral is a holobiont that consists of the cnidarian animal, the zooxanthellae and the bacterial symbionts. The nutrient imbalance influences at least the zooxanthellae and the bacterial symbionts. Corals behave much like autotrophic organisms (and indeed much of the organic carbon the coral consists of is obtained from the photosynthesis of the symbiotic zooxanthellae), let´s say like some kind of brown alga, and in this way the nutrient imbalance itself can severly harm the coral.
 
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So your saying there's bacteria that eat only or primarily no3 and then others that prefer po4? And that these strains are not present in sufficient numbers in our tanks and additives?

But still the endrun of what your saying is the op should dose no3 because it's low. But not because the coral needs it, but because the bacteria does.

Generally yes, I think you fully understood my message ;-)
My intention is not to feed the Coral itself even if the Coral itself does need some of the Nitrates as we know. I consider the Coral in a black box from a system perspective to avoid going into the detail level!
But the primary reason is to feed the bacteria biology to enhance and support a healthy balance of bacteria to avoid certain strains to outcompete others.
Many others factors and foods coming into the play to feed bacteria, since it seems that certain wastes and other supplements in our tanks are part of the bacterial food chain.

Evidence for this behavior can be found in biochem, food industry and waste management studies that deal with bacterial engineering. Another area of interest is the medical section where pathogenic bacterial behavior is studied quite a lot, which seems out of context, but thinking about it, it's also all bacteria ;-)

-Andre
 
Andre, very intersting contribution and in lage parts I can follow you. There are only some important details where I disagree.
- It is not the bacteria that are influencing the nutrient levels (or only in a very limited amount e. g. polyphosphate accumulating bacteria) but it is vice versa. The nutrient levels determine what kind of bacteria will grow. This is even true for denitrifying bacteria.
- It is not the bacteria that damage corals in the situation of a nutrient imbalance but it is the nutrient imbalance itself. The hermatypic coral is a holobiont that consists of the cnidarian animal, the zooxanthellae and the bacterial symbionts. The nutrient imbalance influences at least the zooxanthellae and the bacterial symbionts. Corals behave much like autotrophic organisms (and indeed much of the organic carbon the coral consists of is obtained from the photosynthesis of the symbiotic zooxanthellae), let´s say like some kind of brown alga, and in this way the nutrient imbalance itself can severly harm the coral.

Hans Werner,
thank you for sharing these details here, appreciated. And you are absolutely right. Albert basically provided me the same response but not in such a nice compact summary. I guess we are all in agreement on that!

As a background info, my occupational task in the R&D over the years required me to lead and manage a wide range of key experts (mostly with doctorates) for certain development tasks.
At the end, it is my job to team them all up and come to a comprehensive summary broken down into a variety of system levels, and most challenging to literally translate the outcome into useful guidances for semi and non-key experts ;-)

Back to the subject, in my Reef Guide for "Coral Colorization Part#1" I have compiled these high level (translated) results of the bacterial biology and it's effect on the system, in addition to hands on guide for the folks out here in a much simpler way as we discuss it here ;-)
You can see the confusion already from the Thread owner, even while we all are not really drifting off the subject.

This is a great conversation and nice to see that we have some of the best Reef scientists here on board.
I talked in the past as well with @Dana Riddle, which may join and contribute to this conversation as well. As Albert and many other scientists have said before, the bacterial behavior in this hobby may still be a greyish area.
Since @sanjay has read my Guide as one of the first when it came out, he may be an excellent contributor for this subject as well.

-Andre
 
Basically yes.
It's not just adding any bacteria and some nitrates in my opinion and from experience.

Send me an email to [email protected] and I will send you a copy of my Reef Guide Part#1 for your use.
This will explain the situation, what to do and how, with all the things to look out for when increasing nutrients while giving hints how to avoid Cyano and other issues.
You do not want to make things worse, so take then some hours to read through it, it's only a bit more then 40 pages.

In the meantime get some Potassium Nitrate like Stomp Remover, since in your situation the bacterial potassium depletion will increase at some point.

Also tell me more about the filtration system and methods of nutrient reduction you do typically.
Just to see what led to this imbalance.
Did you dose a Bacterial product a while back???

-Andre


I will send you an email shortly.

Regarding my filtration system, I run a somewhat unconventional setup. First, I use a canister filter (Sicce Whale to be exact). During my bi-weekly water changes, the canister is cleaned and fresh carbon is added. During every other water change I add a pack of Chemi Pure Blue and then remove it the following water change. I use a GFO reactor with Phosban that is changed every 4 weeks (per package instructions). My protein skimmer is a Reef Octopus HOB 100 and it does a fantastic job (or so it seems) of collecting waste.

Finally, I also have a HOB CPR Refugium that houses some rubble, a chunk of live rock, chaeto, a number of pods and mysis shrimp, and a plethora or micro algae. I used to have to prune the chaeto during every other water change, but lately it has barely been growing.

Hopefully this describes my filtration system well enough.

As far as adding a bacterial supplement, I've never added one besides when I first set up my tank about 1.5 years ago. And that bacteria was just a dose of the kick start stuff LFS sell for new tanks.
 
Thanks for the explanation... so if I understand what you're saying: I have an imbalance in bacteria and need to increase the bacteria that feeds on Po4 because there is plenty of bacteria present that feeds on No3. How would I go about adding this bacteria? Is it something like the bottles that many LFS sell?

Also are there any possible negative side effects to adding bacteria?

Finally is there any negative side effect to adding amino acids (acro power) besides a possible small case of Cyanobacteria?

I really want to do the right thing here but I'm getting conflicting info... however, if all the info provided has little or no side effects, I'd be open to trying more than one method to solve this issue.

In the end, I'd like 2 things here: for my Po4 to go down so the hair algae goes away and and for my corals to gain some color back (especially sps).

Thanks everyone!

@goldenhurricane2
-Deleted- Double post ;-(

-Andre
 
I will send you an email shortly.

Regarding my filtration system, I run a somewhat unconventional setup. First, I use a canister filter (Sicce Whale to be exact). During my bi-weekly water changes, the canister is cleaned and fresh carbon is added. During every other water change I add a pack of Chemi Pure Blue and then remove it the following water change. I use a GFO reactor with Phosban that is changed every 4 weeks (per package instructions). My protein skimmer is a Reef Octopus HOB 100 and it does a fantastic job (or so it seems) of collecting waste.

Finally, I also have a HOB CPR Refugium that houses some rubble, a chunk of live rock, chaeto, a number of pods and mysis shrimp, and a plethora or micro algae. I used to have to prune the chaeto during every other water change, but lately it has barely been growing.

Hopefully this describes my filtration system well enough.

As far as adding a bacterial supplement, I've never added one besides when I first set up my tank about 1.5 years ago. And that bacteria was just a dose of the kick start stuff LFS sell for new tanks.

All right, may I ask you what is inside the canister? Media types etc.

-Andre
 
All right, may I ask you what is inside the canister? Media types etc.

-Andre

Sure - It's a 4 stage canister so I use one stage for carbon only, then on alternating water change periods the 2nd stage is for chemi pure blue, the 3rd stage is rubble contained in a bag, and the 4th stage is ceramic tubes that are about 1/3 inch in length.
 
Nutrient imbalances (C:N:P) have hampered culture of 'proper' bacteria in industrial wastewater plants and supplementing the missing element is sometimes necessary. Even in domestic treatment facilities, excess carbon (usually in the form of grease from kitchen grease traps) can cause outbreaks of undesirable bacteria. Will excess nitrogen (nitrates) or phosphorus (ortho-P) directly harm corals? Probably not. The reefs along Alii Drive were subject to leachate from hundreds of cesspools and, not surprisingly, the nitrate and ortho-phosphate measurements were quite high for an oceanic environment. Yet the corals were healthy, growing, spawning on schedule, and, those predisposed to do so, had vivid coloration.
 
Nutrient imbalances (C:N:p) have hampered culture of 'proper' bacteria in industrial wastewater plants and supplementing the missing element is sometimes necessary. Even in domestic treatment facilities, excess carbon (usually in the form of grease from kitchen grease traps) can cause outbreaks of undesirable bacteria. Will excess nitrogen (nitrates) or phosphorus (ortho-P) directly harm corals? Probably not. The reefs along Alii Drive were subject to leachate from hundreds of cesspools and, not surprisingly, the nitrate and ortho-phosphate measurements were quite high for an oceanic environment. Yet the corals were healthy, growing, spawning on schedule, and, those predisposed to do so, had vivid coloration.
That should be carbon/nitrogen/phosphorous imbalances. I am not sticking my tongue out at you. :-
Great to see you here, Dana. :)
Randy, happy to be here. I'm in good company!
 
Thx for the contributing input Dana.

So yes, this is just one example where Nutrient imbalances effecting a "balanced bacterial biology".
As well, this happened in many tanks in a similar fashion where either Nitrates or Phosphates have been depleted by excessive filtration and/or other nutrients reducing methods.

That's were my "Reef Guide" really comes into the play and explains the strategy and steps to recover a tank from these scenarios.
Overall I have fixed a lot, but also some really bad looking tanks last few years with the described method in that e-publication.
Unbelievable results in some cases.

-Andre
 
I am experiencing a nutrient imbalance currently.. -____-' how does one create more Nate rial diversity to regain balance?
 
I am experiencing a nutrient imbalance currently.. -____-' how does one create more Nate rial diversity to regain balance?

With the correct guidance and use of the appropriate products and some patience, this can be done easily to have a Reeftank being prepped to be much more resistant to Cyanos, pest algae and pathogenic bacterial coral diseases.

And as well, much better coloration ;-)

I have written the Reef Guide Part#1 for mostly that subject actually.
Basically and the key is you need some better basic understanding of the relationship of the bacteria in the tank system and how they interact with each other.

Also a lot of hints what to do and what not to do and other little things to watch out for, since it's much more than just measuring and dosing some No3 and Po4 !!!!
Dosing is just the tools you use, and if done wrong it can end in worse results instead.

-Andre
 
Hi @goldenhurrican2 I wanted to briefly share some of my *personal and super short term* experiences with nitrates phosphates and sps colors. My tank just turned a year old. While dkh/ca/mg/salinity has remained mostly stable over that period, my nitrates have been fluctuating a lot and this appears to be correlated with sps colors. First 4 month I had undetectable no3 and a tad (<0.03 ppm) phosphates; I increased fish and stopped water changes, nitrates started becoming detectable, phosphates dropped to zero and sps looked great., the colors improved when no3 hit 1, and kept getting better. At no3 of 5 ppm, they looked amazing. Then they got to 10 ppm (still zero phosphates) and the sps lost a lot of color quickly ...
See before and after pics here
Then I did a whole bunch of things to control nitrates (new skimmer, daily small water changes, siporax), this got no3 back to 5 - 2.5 ppm, and sps looked super again, but my filtration got too good, and my nitrates went to zero and my phosphates starting popping up. A month of zero nitrates had my sps looking pale again. Now this is far from a controlled experiment and I did play a round with a few parameters during these nitrate fluctuations (vibrant, carbon dosing, lighting levels).

I started Potassium nitrate dosing almost 3 weeks ago to see if adding more nitrates (and also potassium) will improve sps color. This time around, I am not messing around with other things in the tank. I am taking it slowly. Tank is had been steady between 1 and 2 ppm Nitrates for the last two weeks. Phosphates dropped to undetectable; (as an aside, this is the 4 time that I observe some kind of n:p tipping point - undetectable phosphate with detectable nitrates or undetectable nitrates but detectable phosphates). Sps have improved in color but it's subtle. I am taking lots of photos as I continue this n=1 trial; check them out in my build thread if you are interested.

I am going to lurk here a bit. These n:p imbalances are interesting and perplexing
 
Yes - this has been quite an interesting information session. I read through Andre's Reef Guide and there is a lot of great information in there. Specifically, the ratio of No3 to Po4 as well as information on the bacteria in different tanks. Based on the ratio information from the guide, my No3 levels should be around 1ppm based on my Po4 level of 0.1ppm.

However, what I was a little unclear on was what is considered a "Zero Nitrate with Detectable Phosphate" system versus a "Zero Nitrate with High Phosphate" system. What is considered detectable versus high regarding phosphates?
 
Yes - this has been quite an interesting information session. I read through Andre's Reef Guide and there is a lot of great information in there. Specifically, the ratio of No3 to Po4 as well as information on the bacteria in different tanks. Based on the ratio information from the guide, my No3 levels should be around 1ppm based on my Po4 level of 0.1ppm.

However, what I was a little unclear on was what is considered a "Zero Nitrate with Detectable Phosphate" system versus a "Zero Nitrate with High Phosphate" system. What is considered detectable versus high regarding phosphates?

@goldenhurricane2 ,
As you can see in the Reef Guide I have listed the most common scenarios that typically occur and how the best way is to treat those.

Two of those are these!
A "Zero Nitrate with Detectable Phosphate" scenario is not yet as bad as when it turned already into a "Zero Nitrate with High Phosphate" scenario.
Issue is when the Nitrates are zero for a while, then the bacteria strains that do consume Po4 are heavily reduced and can't recover, as you can imagine further down the road resulting in climbing Po4 since they won't even can come back since they are out competed by the other bacteria strains.
That's the point where other bacteria have taken over as such as Cyano etc.
In some of these cases it seems that even while using GFO to keep Phosphates low, seem not to help against Cyanos !!! Well, the right bacteria strains are missing, to compete out the undesired bacteria (Cyano). Just GFO doesn't help the biology,......... only to keep the Po4 level low, but does not help to re-populate the Po4 consuming bacteria that are almost extinct at this point.....so far the theory at least.

That's where the "Bacteria Recovery method" described in the Guide, vaccinates the tank and you start re-building a balanced bacteria biology with the correct feeding of these bacteria.

-Andre
 
@goldenhurricane2 ,
As you can see in the Reef Guide I have listed the most common scenarios that typically occur and how the best way is to treat those.

Two of those are these!
A "Zero Nitrate with Detectable Phosphate" scenario is not yet as bad as when it turned already into a "Zero Nitrate with High Phosphate" scenario.
Issue is when the Nitrates are zero for a while, then the bacteria strains that do consume Po4 are heavily reduced and can't recover, as you can imagine further down the road resulting in climbing Po4 since they won't even can come back since they are out competed by the other bacteria strains.
That's the point where other bacteria have taken over as such as Cyano etc.
In some of these cases it seems that even while using GFO to keep Phosphates low, seem not to help against Cyanos !!! Well, the right bacteria strains are missing, to compete out the undesired bacteria (Cyano). Just GFO doesn't help the biology,......... only to keep the Po4 level low, but does not help to re-populate the Po4 consuming bacteria that are almost extinct at this point.....so far the theory at least.

That's where the "Bacteria Recovery method" described in the Guide, vaccinates the tank and you start re-building a balanced bacteria biology with the correct feeding of these bacteria.

-Andre

Yes, but what constitutes a "Detectable Phosphate" range versus a "High Phosphate" range? Is my 0.1ppm phosphate reading considered just detectable or high?
 

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