Nitrate

[Lenny_S]

No I do not have a sump, I have a canister filter. And you may be right about something rotten in the tank. It may be snails because I started noticing the nitrate when I saw empty snail shells.

2 cleaner shrimp died, want to rock flower anemone, A tomato clown fish and snails

Dead snails would do it especially it it were a lot of them. And if the tank is fairly new, there could have been an ammonia spike well ahead of the high nitrates as the bacteria were playing catchup to the new load. That is a lot more likely to cause death than even 80 ppm of nitrate. How old is the tank?

 

[Damien]

7 months

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Zero attitude is given for me. I just thought you and the person that keeps liking your post was being disrespectful. I didn't say thank you for the link, it was helpful

Yes, 80 nitrate And again if you check what I wrote I never stated how high any of my nitrate was. I only stated what the nitrate level was after I change the water. For you to come up with these numbers out of nowhere I don't know what you're talking about. I never said my parameters were at 100 at all the highs it was, was 80 and that was after I changed it with the seawater.

And as I stated before I am completely new to having a marine tank, I just stumbled onto this forum and this is my first posting. I posted it in this section by accident but an anemone did die. A Rock follower anemone, A cleaner shrimp, a tomato clown fish, and a lot of snails.

I still do not know why you think were are not reading EXACTLY what you wrote. We are respecting you, but what you are writing can't all be true.

" so I did a 30% and the levels were below 0.05. I checked the levels a few days ago and the levels were around 0.10"

"It has killed so many of my invertebrates so I didn't a 90%water change and the levels went to 0."

Neither of those sentences are compatible with nitrate over 1 ppm.

Please think through what we are saying before just assuming we are not listening.

Then you wrote:

". And you're wrong about invertebrates Dying only above 100. Mines died at 80 "

Which implies you think at some point you had 80 ppm nitrate.

Also, you say you are new to reefing. That might suggest you listen to what experts with decades of reefing experience are telling you about the toxicity of nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So, to get back on track, what do you believe your current nitrate reading is?

Sorry if you are thinking we are being harsh, but just blindly answering how to reduce nitrate is not, IMO, the best answer we can give since I am not convinced it is your problem.

We are here to help, but need a full picture to do so. .

 

[Damien]

So, to get back on track, what do you believe your current nitrate reading is?

Sorry if you are thinking we are being harsh, but just blindly answering how to reduce nitrate is not, IMO, the best answer we can give since I am not convinced it is your problem.

We are here to help, but need a full picture to do so. .

No you backtrack to your message. I never one stated how much my nitrate was before a water change I always stated how much it is after the water change, the 0.10 is when it started gradually increasing. You are the one That said in your first message that invertebrates do not die at anything but 100+. I responded back by saying that mines died at 80 so you're wrong about it not dying at 100+

No I have attitude. You and your groupie that keeps liking your post come on the forum and try to make people look stupid instead of helping people. I don't need anything from you everyone else already gave me the answer. The room will be a better place if everyone would just hope when the number instead of doing what you two are doing. Thanks for your Non helpful input and the great link that answered all me questions.

 

[Oceansize]

IME, when I get a nitrate spike it's because something has died. But high nitrates have never killed any of my inverts. That is why we're skeptical that high nitrates are the cause of your invert deaths.

It could be that there's some other reason why things are dying in your tank, and high nitrates are merely the result.

The smaller the tank, the more quickly things can get out of balance, and thus the need for more frequent water changes or more aggressive denitrifying techniques. 30 gallons is relatively small. Depending on your water change schedule, the nitrate buildup you're experiencing could be completely normal.

 

[AlexG]

IMO I would ditch the canister filter. Canister and hang on the back filters on saltwater tanks cause more harm than good in my experience. If your nitrates are high there is a good chance that the canister filter is to blame. Filters that use sponges or filter pads, or in some cases large volumes of biological media will produce large amounts of nitrates. The aerobic bacteria that convert ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate will thrive in these filters. The bacteria that consume nitrates do not live as well in these filters as they live in anaerobic environments. This imbalance of biological filtration can create access amounts of nitrates. If there is live rock and good flow there should be a good working biological filter in place. I would consider a protein skimmer over a canister filter or if you run the canister filter from time to time only use it for a day and then turn it off and empty it. If other water parameters are spiking then the amount of food being fed needs to be known along with the bio-load.

 

[Damien]

IMO I would ditch the canister filter. Canister and hang on the back filters on saltwater tanks cause more harm than good in my experience. If your nitrates are high there is a good chance that the canister filter is to blame. Filters that use sponges or filter pads, or in some cases large volumes of biological media will produce large amounts of nitrates. The aerobic bacteria that convert ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate will thrive in these filters. The bacteria that consume nitrates do not live as well in these filters as they live in anaerobic environments. This imbalance of biological filtration can create access amounts of nitrates. If there is live rock and good flow there should be a good working biological filter in place. I would consider a protein skimmer over a canister filter or if you run the canister filter from time to time only use it for a day and then turn it off and empty it. If other water parameters are spiking then the amount of food being fed needs to be known along with the bio-load.

I am planning on getting a bigger tank and replacing canister filter for a sump anyway. Thank you.

 

[Oceansize]

Personally, if I had a 30 gallon, I would not only clean the canister weekly but I would also do a 5% or 10% water change weekly. Keep in mind that gradual nitrate buildup is not just the result of a dirty filter, it is the result of the entire nitrogen cycle and is completely normal/to be expected. That is why we do water changes or employ other denitrifying techniques. Adding a goby that sifts the sand WILL benefit your tank, but it will not reduce nitrates. If anything it will increase nitrates because nitrates are the end product of the waste that the goby produces. Regular water changes will more than suffice to offset this effect however.

 

[Damien]

Thank you very much you will have really assisted in novice at this hobbies more than anyone else have

 

[Oceansize]

I am planning on getting a bigger tank and replacing canister filter for a sump anyway. Thank you.

Using a sump can't hurt, but I'm running a beautiful reef tank without one. Canister filters employ mechanical filtration in addition to chemical and biological filtration, which can create the proverbial "nitrate factory" that is so often mentioned in context with canister filters, but I find that effective detritus removal is even more important than nitrate removal for the prevention of nuisance algae and the healthy propagation of coral, therefore I am a proponent of aggressive mechanical filtration. People who don't use mechanical filtration may have less of a nitrate issue, but they also have more of a detritus issue unless they're being proactive in some other way. Another argument against mechanical filtration is that it filters out nutrients that would otherwise be available to the coral, but I have had utterly no issues whatsoever keeping my corals adequately fed despite the presence of three different size filter pads in my canister.

The rub is that you have to clean your canister more frequently than sump-users, but you're already doing that.

 

[Oceansize]

Thank you very much you will have really assisted in novice at this hobbies more than anyone else have

Thank you. My last bit of advice is: don't dismiss what Randy Holmes-Farley tells you. He's our resident reef chemist and more than anybody else around here, really seems to understand what's going on at the molecular level. Whenever I have a question about my water parameters, his forum here on R2R is the place to go.

 

[twilliard]

Thank you. My last bit of advice is: don't dismiss what Randy Holmes-Farley tells you. He's our resident reef chemist and more than anybody else around here, really seems to understand what's going on at the molecular level. Whenever I have a question about my water parameters, his forum here on R2R is the place to go.

I must agree with this
And I am no "groupie" just know Randys knowledge

 

[Lenny_S]

I must agree with this
And I am no "groupie" just know Randys knowledge

@Damien I'd have to agree as well. Sorry, but Randy has literally written the book on this stuff.
IMO if cooler heads can prevail every thread that presents a problem with a solution and then the ultimate outcome becomes a resource for others.
And just to mention, although your first post here wasn't exactly great, I hope you continue with the hobby and have great success.

 

[GatorGuys]

Ammonia is part of the Nitrogen cycle... if you are getting lots of critter deaths, I would suspect Ammonia before Nitrate. Eventually, the ammonia gets converted to Nitrite - and finally, Nitrate. So you could indeed be seeing a spike in Nitrate - but the real culprit causing the deaths is ammonia.

There are test-kits for ammonia - could you test and see what the levels are at? Ideally you want ammonia to be at 0.

 

[Damien]

@Damien I'd have to agree as well. Sorry, but Randy has literally written the book on this stuff.
IMO if cooler heads can prevail every thread that presents a problem with a solution and then the ultimate outcome becomes a resource for others.
And just to mention, although your first post here wasn't exactly great, I hope you continue with the hobby and have great success.

I am absolutely not dismissing any of his advice. I am a novice at this hobby, I keep thanking him for advice you gave me in every disrespectful comment he said to me. The situation is he keeps telling me I said 100 ppm. But I never said that he did and he's not man enough to admit that he said it and I didn't

 

[Lenny_S]

I am absolutely not dismissing any of his advice. I am a novice at this hobby, I keep thanking him for advice you gave me in every disrespectful comment he said to me. The situation is he keeps telling me I said 100 ppm. But I never said that he did and he's not man enough to admit that he said it and I didn't

I agree you didn't say it, but it is an easy example of his main point. That is if you change 90% percent of your tank water, and it is at "for example" 100 ppm of nitrate. Then in this "example" you should get a reading of 10 ppm nitrate because you only removed 90% of 100 ppm. The math is just a little harder using the 80 ppm you stated. But nonetheless, using the real number a 90% water change of 80 ppm nitrate laden water should leave 8 ppm nitrate still in the tank. So it is just odd that you would have a reading that was a fraction of that unless something else is going on. We're just trying to help you figure out what that something else might be.

 

[GatorGuys]

Again... Randy is correct in that nitrate is not really what is killing your critters. You need 100+ppm nitrate to have an effect on most life-forms - you do not have over 100+ ppm, so it is not the nitrate killing thins.

The fact you are seeing such a HUGE spike in nitrates so quickly tells me that there is something causing in influx of other parts to the nitrogen cycle - specifically ammonia. I'd bet that you are really having an ammonia spike - which is causing the deaths - and a little while later, the spike in Nitrate. You really need to start at the beginning of the cycle to make sure you stop the spiral of death.

Figure out what is causing the ammonia (dead critters left in the tank, a non-cycled tank going through its normal set-up stages, cleansers, etc).

Remove what is causing the ammonia and your Nitrate 'problem' will also be fixed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No you backtrack to your message. I never one stated how much my nitrate was before a water change I always stated how much it is after the water change, the 0.10 is when it started gradually increasing. You are the one That said in your first message that invertebrates do not die at anything but 100+. I responded back by saying that mines died at 80 so you're wrong about it not dying at 100+

No I have attitude. You and your groupie that keeps liking your post come on the forum and try to make people look stupid instead of helping people. I don't need anything from you everyone else already gave me the answer. The room will be a better place if everyone would just hope when the number instead of doing what you two are doing. Thanks for your Non helpful input and the great link that answered all me questions.

Wow, that is really disappointing to hear.

What exactly did I say that was disrespectful? Quoting my sentence that was disrespectful will help me understand and avoid it in the future.

Sorry you think my help wan't useful, but it is accurate. I never try to make people look stupid. Not understanding reef chemistry does not make one stupid. Many people who have reefs, even great reefs, often have an incomplete understanding of it.

You have some inconsistencies in your input that make it unclear to me whether you currently have elevated nitrate.

Again I'll ask, what is nitrate right now?

 

[twilliard]

@Damien
I suggest taking a breather right now.
When we offer help we get down to the bottom of things to assist and help others.