Nitrates 100+ppm, Need help with Dosing Vodka

[Ashish Patel]

I just need to mount the mesh somewhere the snails won't get too. They never clean the egg crate some perhaps I can make a pvc stand with starboard frame with a center mesh. This will surely grow algae fast and be easy to scrap clean

 

[Tritie]

No mention of sucrose, however.

It's a little tricky to search for since sucrose is used during purifications and other things in many papers relating to zooxanthellae.

@Randy Holmes-Farley Not related to sucrose specifically, but carbon dosing in general and it's mentioned in this thread and everywhere else. If carbon dosing feeds the anaerobic bacteria that are responsible for removing nitrates, why am I always reading that carbon dosing strips O2 from that water? Are we also feeding aerobic bacteria in addition to the anaerobic?

 

[Ashish Patel]

I have a 120 gallon that had nitrates in the 150 range, now down to 30 or so and coming back down slowly. I installed an awc that changes about 2% daily that was helping but it was slow. My issue was the phosphates kept hitting zero and I couldn't get macro algae to grow even after adding phospate. So I started chaetogrow. Started getting some hair algae to grow so I ordered some Caulerpa paspaloides, The chaetogrow seemed to be the missing piece. The macro exploded in my refugium and dropped nitrates to 100 in about 2 weeks.

Did you do anything about your Low Phosphates besides dosing Chaetogrow? What test kit did you use to test Phosphates? How are you phosphates levels after bringing Nitrates down and how are they today?

 

[Troylee]

Did you do anything about your Low Phosphates besides dosing Chaetogrow? What test kit did you use to test Phosphates? How are you phosphates levels after bringing Nitrates down and how are they today?

What are your numbers today? I’ve skimmed through the thread and didn’t see… I saw you started at 100… as for the low p04 just add a tsp of reef roids or dose p04 if that’s your thing.

 

[ScuttleBug]

Did you do anything about your Low Phosphates besides dosing Chaetogrow? What test kit did you use to test Phosphates? How are you phosphates levels after bringing Nitrates down and how are they today?

I dosed sodium triphosphate a few times per week until it stayed detectable. Took several weeks for the rocks to absorb the stuff and stabilize. I dont mind my tank looking kinda dirty, I have hair algae, bubble algae etc but no one is out of control. I do have 4 baseball sized turbos that keep most everything under control

 

[Miami Reef]

but carbon dosing in general and it's mentioned in this thread and everywhere else. If carbon dosing feeds the anaerobic bacteria that are responsible for removing nitrates

It can feed both types.

Anaerobic bacteria need low O2 areas (deep sand beds etc) to function.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Are we also feeding aerobic bacteria in addition to the anaerobic?

Yes. It is used by many aerobic organisms, including bacteria, corals, sponges, etc. The amount used by low O2 organisms may be a very small part of the total.

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes. It is used by many aerobic organisms, including bacteria, corals, sponges, etc. The amount used by low O2 organisms may be a very small part of the total.

That depends on the carbon source, no? I don’t think corals and sponges can take up ethanol directly?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That depends on the carbon source, no? I don’t think corals and sponges can take up ethanol directly?

Yes, what takes up how much (or at all) will vary. Acetate is used by nearly everyone. Some of the others are less studied.

As far as I know, aerobic bacteria can use anything that anaerobic or hypoxic bacteria can use.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you.

aerobic bacteria can use anything that anaerobic or hypoxic bacteria can use.

That was my assumption as well.

 

[bakbay]

Don't want to hijack the OP's thread but watching this thread since I'm in a similar boat with my SPS tank. PO4 can be controlled with LC but my NO3 skyrocketed to above 75 (per ULR Hanna checker). I'm torn between sugar, vodka, and algae turf scrubber as well. I've never had to do this before since it was in good balance with NO3 under 30. With 7+ large tangs, heaving feeding, and no WCs after 3+ years, it finally caught up to me. I might fire up the algae tuff scrubber today but it's just too much work (cleaning and removing algae) vs just dosing vodka, which can be controlled.

I've done sulphur-based biodenitrator before -- extremely effective but if you don't watch your level, it will quickly bottom out NO3 and starve your corals!

 

[Miami Reef]

I'm torn between sugar, vodka, and algae turf scrubber as well

Algae turf scrubbers and carbon dosing are great nitrate management tools.

I like vinegar for the carbon dosing. Algae turf scrubbers are great at raising pH, too in addition to managing nitrate.

For vinegar, I like the start with 0.25mL per gallon.

Eventually going to 0.5mL/gallon

If you don’t have any ill effects (cloudy water, bacteria blooms etc) you can go to 0.75mL/gallon.

If nitrates start reducing at the lower doses, there is no need to increase it.

 

[bakbay]

Algae turf scrubbers and carbon dosing are great nitrate management tools.

I like vinegar for the carbon dosing. Algae turf scrubbers are great at raising pH, too in addition to managing nitrate.

For vinegar, I like the start with 0.25mL per gallon.

Eventually going to 0.5mL/gallon

If you don’t have any ill effects (cloudy water, bacteria blooms etc) you can go to 0.75mL/gallon.

If nitrates start reducing at the lower doses, there is no need to increase it.

Cool, thanks. I like ATS but I'm too lazy to prune algae growth. As per pH, I'm good -- using CO2 scrubber and pegged at 8.5 during its peak.

I got plenty of vinegar from Costco so will start tonight -- thx

 

[Miami Reef]

Cool, thanks. I like ATS but I'm too lazy to prune algae growth. As per pH, I'm good -- using CO2 scrubber and pegged at 8.5 during its peak.

I got plenty of vinegar from Costco so will start tonight -- thx

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Ashish Patel]

This is my old cryptic fuge that I want to convert to a ATS. Never worked with acrylic but honestly doesn't need to be perfect. I think it will surely help speed things up

 

[Miami Reef]

I think the rocks are soaking up the PO4. I don’t think it’s the carbon dosing. The rocks can bind and unbind depending on their saturation point and the concentration in the water.

@Ashish Patel

This is what I was trying to explain to you earlier. I couldn’t have said it better than Randy. He made this post to someone else today.

I'm saying the effect on phosphate is much smaller than the effect on nitrate for at least three different, understood reasons (denitrification, the N/P ratio in organisms using the organic, and phosphate release from rock and sand when it starts to drop).

Most folks see very little, if any, reduction in P when dosing organic carbon.

Not sure what you observed or why, but if real and lasting, it is very different than most folks observe. That big of a phosphate drop caused by organic carbon dosing would require a very large drop in nitrate.

I don’t think the carbon dosing is bringing down the phosphate. I think the rocks are now pulling it in after desaturating it with lanthanum chlorine. To see that much PO4 drop with carbon dosing will require nitrate dropping much, much more.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Man this science is crazy. I am going to test my PO and NO3 tomorrow. Hopefully I see progress

 

[Miami Reef]

Man this science is crazy. I am going to test my PO and NO3 tomorrow. Hopefully I see progress

Sorry. I’m trying to explain it the best I can.

Think of your rocks as a sponge. A soaking, wet sponge will make a dry surface wet. However, a damp sponge (has less water) will absorb a puddle of water.

A soaking wet sponge cannot absorb more water, and a dry sponge cannot release water.

In this analogy, the sponge is the rocks, and the water is the phosphate.

You can’t assume a puddle of water on the floor is all the water there is if there’s a wet sponge on top of the puddle, because the sponge holds even more water. If you dry some of the puddle with a paper towel (water change/carbon dosing), more water from the sponge will seep out.

However, nitrate is like glitter. It doesn’t stick to the sponge at all. If you take a wet/dry vac (carbon dosing, water change) it will remove both glitter and water, however more water will seep out from the sponge.

So at the end, it makes it seem like carbon dosing/water changes is more effective for nitrate than phosphate.

I hope this analogy is helpful.

Of course, there are other processes that make carbon dosing more efficient for nitrate, but I believe this is the main one.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Sorry. I’m trying to explain it the best I can.

Think of your rocks as a sponge. A soaking, wet sponge will make a dry surface wet. However, a damp sponge (has less water) will absorb a puddle of water.

A soaking wet sponge cannot absorb more water, and a dry sponge cannot release water.

In this analogy, the sponge is the rocks, and the water is the phosphate.

You can’t assume a puddle of water on the floor is all the water there is if there’s a wet sponge on top of the puddle, because the sponge holds even more water. If you dry some of the puddle with a paper towel (water change/carbon dosing), more water from the sponge will seep out.

However, nitrate is like glitter. It doesn’t stick to the sponge at all. If you take a wet/dry vac (carbon dosing, water change) it will remove both glitter and water, however more water will seep out from the sponge.

So at the end, it makes it seem like carbon dosing/water changes is more effective for nitrate than phosphate.

I hope this analogy is helpful.

Of course, there are other processes that make carbon dosing more efficient for nitrate, but I believe this is the main one.

Yeah I read somewhere that the reason why PO are dropping is because the carbon dosing is helping the corals absorb the Phosphates in the water faster. I am not sure where I read this if it has merit. However, at the end of the day this is still a win win for me since I dont care how my PO drops, since now for 2 weeks I have not dosed lanthanum chloride. I am seeing a massive increase in PH during the night now since the frag tank is on a reverse photoperiod and growing hair algae all over. For the first time in months my nighttime didnt drop below PH 8.02. Last week it was dropping all the way to PH7.90 I like the concept of a refugium on a reverse photoperiod since it makes sense but this the frag tank is doing the same thing now that I have added a number of frags. Fish eat and poop all day and i have so much water waiting 12 hours before doing any Nutrient removal. Now during the night my frag tank will consume the extra nutrients and whatever metals they may absorb. I kind of had good success (maybe too much) using a refugium in my last tank and thinking about how I am going to add this. If I didnt at that 80LB of Livesand and rubble I would have a perfect area but kind of don't want to add cheato to that much sand. My sump is turning into a bit of a mess but its fine I guess.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Tested my PO and they are 9PPB.
My Nitrates diluted 50% with rodi and still feel I am between 50-100ppm. Which would make my best guess of NO3 at 150ppm