Nitrates 100+ppm, Need help with Dosing Vodka

jda · Dec 1, 2023

Instant Ocean, not Reef Crystals. They did give you a free box of RC. You can buy a 5 year supply of baking soda and driveway melt for $20 if you want to make your IO look like RC. Earlier in the week, the RC was 60-62, IIRC, so it has gone back up.

AKReefing · Dec 1, 2023

jda said:
I have read it. If your point is that this seems weird, I agree, which is why I did a double take when I read it. Most that specify say glucose, but many just say sugar and leave it at that. This could be a translation thing, for sure. I will hollar when I see another article.

Probably a good idea to use the right terms and avoid sugar.

Here's one from NOAA: "Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis."

NOAA National Ocean Service Education: Corals Tutorial

Coral reefs are some of the most diverse ecosystems in the world. Thousands of species rely on reefs for survival. Millions of people all over the world also depend on coral reefs for food, protection and jobs. This tutorial is an overview of the biology of and threats to coral reefs, as well as...

oceanservice.noaa.gov

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 1, 2023

FWIW, in the first 10 years or so that I used normal IO, the recipe was a bit low in mangesium. I upped it with MAG flake, and that actually reduced the cost to attain 35 ppt because the MAG flake was cheaper than the IO.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 1, 2023

AKReefing said:
Here's one from NOAA: "Most importantly, zooxanthellae supply the coral with glucose, glycerol, and amino acids, which are the products of photosynthesis."

NOAA National Ocean Service Education: Corals Tutorial

Coral reefs are some of the most diverse ecosystems in the world. Thousands of species rely on reefs for survival. Millions of people all over the world also depend on coral reefs for food, protection and jobs. This tutorial is an overview of the biology of and threats to coral reefs, as well as...

oceanservice.noaa.gov

No mention of sucrose, however.

It's a little tricky to search for since sucrose is used during purifications and other things in many papers relating to zooxanthellae.

jda · Dec 1, 2023

Everybody would expect glucose. Sucrose is the weird one.

Anyway, if somebody wanted to dose sugar, then let us know if you used glucose or sucrose. I used sucrose - it was fine. I did not use a strong dose. It was awesome at growing bacteria to be skimmed out. I have not dosed any kind of OC in a long time.

Miami Reef · Dec 1, 2023

MnFish1 said:
I'm not sure why the pH would drop with vodka

The bacteria release CO2 as they metabolize it.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 1, 2023

Miami Reef said:
The bacteria release CO2 as they metabolize it.

The overall pH drop in a closed system should be the same for vinegar and vodka metabolism since the same amount of CO2 is formed from each singe molecule, but vinegar has it drop immediately (from dissociation of the acetic acid) and less later (from production of CO2), while vodka has it all spread out later (making many folks not even notice it).

CH3CH2OH (vodka) + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O

CH3CO2H (vinegar) + 2O2 --> 2CO2 + 2H2O

MnFish1 · Dec 1, 2023

Miami Reef said:
The bacteria release CO2 as they metabolize it.

But the alkalinity should buffer that, right? Most of the carbohydrates are used to build new bacteria, right? I'm just curious that pH would drop much at all (unless there was a severe bacteria bloom of some kind - and even that it should rapidly equilibrate with the room air CO2? I'm not trying to argue, just curious

Miami Reef · Dec 1, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The overall pH drop in a closed system should be the same for vinegar and vodka metabolism since the same amount of CO2 is formed from each singe molecule, but vinegar has it drop immediately (from dissociation of the acetic acid) and less later (from production of CO2), while vodka has it all spread out later (making many folks not even notice it).

CH3CH2OH (vodka) + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O

CH3CO2H (vinegar) + 2O2 --> 2CO2 + 2H2O

Shouldn’t the vinegar pH drop be double the vodka? The vinegar itself contains H, and the bacteria release CO2 while they consume it?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 1, 2023

MnFish1 said:
But the alkalinity should buffer that, right? Most of the carbohydrates are used to build new bacteria, right? I'm just curious that pH would drop much at all (unless there was a severe bacteria bloom of some kind - and even that it should rapidly equilibrate with the room air CO2? I'm not trying to argue, just curious

Alkalinity buffers any pH rise and fall in seawater, but that only means it is smaller than a simple calculation would suggest, not that it doesn't happen.

In reality, the pH drop of either vinegar or vodka that is sufficiently spread out is fairly small.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 1, 2023

Miami Reef said:
Shouldn’t the vinegar pH drop be double the vodka? The vinegar itself contains H, and the bacteria release CO2 while they consume it?

If we rewrite the vinegar equation in steps, we see that while the H+ release instantly drops pH, the subsequent conversion of the acetate to CO2 only produces half the amount of CO2:

CH3CO2H --> H+ + CH3CO2- (that lowers pH instantly by one H+ per acetic acid))

then we oxidize the acetate:

CH3CO2- + 2O2 --> 1CO2 + 1 HCO3- + 1 H2O

That oxidation has only one CO2 added, instead of 2. The HCO3- does not have much effect on pH since it mostly stays as bicarbonate.

Thus, half of the vinegar pH drop is shown instantly, and about half is shown later when CO2 is made, while vodka does it all later.

AKReefing · Dec 1, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
No mention of sucrose, however.

It's a little tricky to search for since sucrose is used during purifications and other things in many papers relating to zooxanthellae.

Hmm. I always wondered if I could use zooxanthellae on my cereal, LOL.

Miami Reef · Dec 1, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
If we rewrite the vinegar equation in steps, we see that while the H+ release instantly drops pH, the subsequent conversion of the acetate to CO2 only produces half the amount of CO2:

CH3CO2H --> H+ + CH3CO2- (that lowers pH instantly by one H+ per acetic acid))

then we oxidize the acetate:

CH3CO2- + 2O2 --> 1CO2 + 1 HCO3- + 1 H2O

That oxidation has only one CO2 added, instead of 2. The HCO3- does not have much effect on pH since it mostly stays as bicarbonate.

Thus, half of the vinegar pH drop is shown instantly, and about half is shown later when CO2 is made, while vodka does it all later.

Thank you so much. I understand and bookmarked this in case someone has the same question in the future.

Ashish Patel · Dec 2, 2023

Here's is a pic of the salifert NO test. Let me know if anyone can guess what range I'm in. It looks slightly lighter than it did 4 months ago

Miami Reef · Dec 2, 2023

Yes, you have nitrates. lol

When you get to a certain level, the actual number doesn’t make much difference. It becomes a pass/fail system.

So yes, the nitrate result is definetly positive. lol

It‘s about 100ppm according to that test.

Ashish Patel · Dec 3, 2023

Miami Reef said:
Yes, you have nitrates. lol

When you get to a certain level, the actual number doesn’t make much difference. It becomes a pass/fail system.

So yes, the nitrate result is definetly positive. lol

It‘s about 100ppm according to that test.

yeah its high, but i just realized in my pictures the bottom pic is from June and the top pic is from last week. after June I added a strong pump to my Sump and increased flow in the display. Good to see the color getting lighter, which is what i was hoping for.

Miami Reef · Dec 3, 2023

Ashish Patel said:
yeah its high, but i just realized in my pictures the bottom pic is from June and the top pic is from last week. after June I added a strong pump to my Sump and increased flow in the display. Good to see the color getting lighter, which is what i was hoping for.

Have you decided on the method you are going to take to reduce them? You received a lot of different options and opinions in this thread.

I never finish anythi · Dec 3, 2023

I'd chuck a bio pellet reactor in the sump .

Ashish Patel · Dec 4, 2023

Miami Reef said:
Have you decided on the method you are going to take to reduce them? You received a lot of different options and opinions in this thread.

First just focusing on doing a 120gallon waterchange and then I'll probably dose Vodka since I think i can do it by hand daily. I want to make dosing vodka a temporary thing so thinking about doing a remote sand bed but not sure where to get the sand volume I need. I have maybe 40 Lbs thats needs to be cleaned but I can add any brute container in the sump and that I am sure will help overtime. I also brought most of the components for a diy scrubber I just dont know if i trust myself to make it good and feel it may impact my tank negatively since my tank grows alot of algae already it just serves a food source for alot of hungry animals. I probably would have been better of had i started the tank with a big refugium or something but going Barebottom I just didnt think id have a nutrient problem.