Nitrates insanity

[liam]

I have been nitrates for about 8 months, here is the system info.
Total volume 56 gallons
Sg. 1.026
Alkalinity 9
Ca 450
Mg 1350
P04 0.024. Tested with Hannah phosphorus
Nitrates 51 tested with Hannah hr and validated with salifert.

Using rodi.
Bioload is 2 small Darwin clowns, a 4 inch yellow coris wrasse, 3 inch tomini tang, 1 bangaii cardinal and a tailspot blenny.

Feeding about 1/2 cube daily rinsed mysis.
Only dosing Brs kalk and currently 3 ml nopox daily.

Tank is just over a year old, have a bunch or sps small colonies and frags.
No filter socks, rollermat ,heavy skimming a couple of quarts of ceramic balls in sump, sump is immaculate, sandbed is about an inch and cleaned religiously, absolutely no algae in system.no refugium
Tested system at 61 for nitrate last weekend ,performed 20 gallon wc with red sea blue bucket, nitrates dropped to 45, now in three days back at 51 and climbing.
I dosed vinegar hard for. 4 months with no impact, tried microbacter 7 and clean in conjunction with no impact. Switched to no pox up to 6 mil day, at that point get heavy bacterial film in sump and skimmer,continued heavy skimming made no impact to biofilm, backed off to 3 mil day.
I realize p04 in low compared to nitrates, I have had it higher but had no effect and am scared to feed and sps are suffering,little growth and polyp extension.
I have been in the hobby for many years on and off but this has me stumped.
Thanks for any suggestions

 

[ナイトコア猫]

Vinegar and NO3PO4x, as well as other such products, will all work well; however, you are experiencing limited phosphate or insufficient time has lapsed. Both phosphate and nitrate are necessary for any kind of carbon dosing.

Cube mysids have low phosphate; I recommend incorporating a phosphate-heavier food—that will make it safe to continue dosing NO3PO4x. Alternatively, what I do is dose phosphate chemical ("disodium phosphate") directly to take, via dosing pump. (Because my food is on autofeeder, I have a fairly good estimate on inputs vs outputs).

Recommendations I made here should be useful, concerning nitrate-biased with minimal or zero phosphate systems: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/battling-nitrates-carbon-dosing-need-advice.956521/post-10903186

 

[liam]

Vinegar and NO3PO4x, as well as other such products, will all work well; however, you are experiencing limited phosphate or insufficient time has lapsed. Both phosphate and nitrate are necessary for any kind of carbon dosing.

Cube mysids have low phosphate; I recommend incorporating a phosphate-heavier food—that will make it safe to continue dosing NO3PO4x. Alternatively, what I do is dose phosphate chemical ("disodium phosphate") directly to take, via dosing pump. (Because my food is on autofeeder, I have a fairly good estimate on inputs vs outputs).

Recommendations I made here should be useful, concerning nitrate-biased with minimal or zero phosphate systems: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/battling-nitrates-carbon-dosing-need-advice.956521/post-10903186

Thanks, so how much available phosphate should I aim for,I am aware of the redfield ratio but surely I don't need to raise to .5 p04.
I have had p04 up to .08 but still has no drop on n03 ,thanks

 

[Dan_P]

I have been nitrates for about 8 months, here is the system info.
Total volume 56 gallons
Sg. 1.026
Alkalinity 9
Ca 450
Mg 1350
P04 0.024. Tested with Hannah phosphorus
Nitrates 51 tested with Hannah hr and validated with salifert.

Using rodi.
Bioload is 2 small Darwin clowns, a 4 inch yellow coris wrasse, 3 inch tomini tang, 1 bangaii cardinal and a tailspot blenny.

Feeding about 1/2 cube daily rinsed mysis.
Only dosing Brs kalk and currently 3 ml nopox daily.

Tank is just over a year old, have a bunch or sps small colonies and frags.
No filter socks, rollermat ,heavy skimming a couple of quarts of ceramic balls in sump, sump is immaculate, sandbed is about an inch and cleaned religiously, absolutely no algae in system.no refugium
Tested system at 61 for nitrate last weekend ,performed 20 gallon wc with red sea blue bucket, nitrates dropped to 45, now in three days back at 51 and climbing.
I dosed vinegar hard for. 4 months with no impact, tried microbacter 7 and clean in conjunction with no impact. Switched to no pox up to 6 mil day, at that point get heavy bacterial film in sump and skimmer,continued heavy skimming made no impact to biofilm, backed off to 3 mil day.
I realize p04 in low compared to nitrates, I have had it higher but had no effect and am scared to feed and sps are suffering,little growth and polyp extension.
I have been in the hobby for many years on and off but this has me stumped.
Thanks for any suggestions

Might need to raise phosphate a bit. The strong bacteria growth should have been the time the nitrate concentration should been declining. Did it?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I realize p04 in low compared to nitrates, I have had it higher but had no effect and am scared to feed and sps are suffering,little growth and polyp extension.

What's the fear? That having 0.02 ppm PO4 is harming your SPS and you don't want to raise it any higher?

My phosphates are consistently around 0.15 - 0.2 ppm, and my corals have never done better. In fact, they really only started turning around when I started dosing and keeping phosphates up this high. Richard Ross's tank had phosphates at 1.77 ppm when he made this post and his tank looks great.

I'd increase the phosphates. They'd either help the bacteria consume the organic carbon or they'll help algae grow. Either way, your nitrates should go down, and your corals will likely be happier too.

 

[ナイトコア猫]

Thanks, so how much available phosphate should I aim for,I am aware of the redfield ratio but surely I don't need to raise to .5 p04.
I have had p04 up to .08 but still has no drop on n03 ,thanks

P04 0.024. Tested with Hannah phosphorus

Try to see if you can keep the phosphate fairly constant at close to around 0.005 to 0.025 ppm range. My recommendation is to design your food input and carbon source dosings so that phosphate is within this range. For my recommended phosphate range, the nitrate is well out-of-range.

I would decide what sort of reef you wish to build. I prefer low nitrate and phosphate systems associated with KZ and others. However, other systems exist as well, and the recommendations from others are around that system. Whichever way you go, I recommend understanding how each work, the advantages and disadvantages, and so forth.

Tested system at 61 for nitrate last weekend ,performed 20 gallon wc with red sea blue bucket, nitrates dropped to 45, now in three days back at 51 and climbing.

I dosed vinegar hard for. 4 months with no impact, tried microbacter 7 and clean in conjunction with no impact. Switched to no pox up to 6 mil day, at that point get heavy bacterial film in sump and skimmer,continued heavy skimming made no impact to biofilm, backed off to 3 mil day.

I can tell your system was working because a white film developed—this evidences bacterial activity and is not harmful; it may eventually develop only in certain spots, or within rock work or other invisible location. This film is okay, and in ZEOvit system, serves as food. If you see a cloud, it's overdone. It would be wise to monitor pH; if pH falls too much from bacteria producing CO2, harm can befall the corals. CO2 production can be not only from carbon dosing, but also the bacteria purchased in bottles for the purpose of carbon dosing).

At this point, if nitrates and phosphates do not lower, it is due to insufficient carbon dosing. I recommend 4 mL/day of NO3PO4x for a week (split dosing AM + PM). I would task you with performing a nitrate and phosphate test in 1 week from today. If you perform a water change, I would ask that you perform a test before and after the change.

I anticipate probably having to raise this to 5-7 mL over a few weeks. If you can keep track of approximately how much water you changed, that would be helpful.

Also, the amount of vinegar and NO3PO4x is not 1:1 .. this is a lot of discussion on DIY NO3PO4x, which can in part be at least emulated using part vinegar and part vodka (if interested, it is Randy Holmes-Farley's post #12):

high Phosphate

hello all. my aquarium is 5 months old FOWLR at the moment. i checked my phosphate 3 days ago and it was .445 ppm. two days ago my readings came as .613ppm done by Hanna ULR so i ran gfo in a reactor. yesterday my phosphate dropped to .236ppm. i did a 10% water change today, my question is...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[olonmv]

I’ve made one of these with great success.

Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

Hello fellow reefers!. I have been in the hobby for more than 3 years, the first 2 years was tough. Cyno, diatom, nuisance algae, high NO3 (120ppm at one time) and ich/velvet. I have tried several nutrient control method (poor man, so most of it were DIY project). GFO, water fall scrubber...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[liam]

What's the fear? That having 0.02 ppm PO4 is harming your SPS and you don't want to raise it any higher?

My phosphates are consistently around 0.15 - 0.2 ppm, and my corals have never done better. In fact, they really only started turning around when I started dosing and keeping phosphates up this high. Richard Ross's tank had phosphates at 1.77 ppm when he made this post and his tank looks great.

I'd increase the phosphates. They'd either help the bacteria consume the organic carbon or they'll help algae grow. Either way, your nitrates should go down, and your corals will likely be happier too.

Hi , I'm not fearful of raising the phosphates, fearful of raising nitrates further with additional feeding
I did order some disodium phosphate, I will try that to raise phosphates alone.

 

[liam]

Try to see if you can keep the phosphate fairly constant at close to around 0.005 to 0.025 ppm range. My recommendation is to design your food input and carbon source dosings so that phosphate is within this range. For my recommended phosphate range, the nitrate is well out-of-range.

I would decide what sort of reef you wish to build. I prefer low nitrate and phosphate systems associated with KZ and others. However, other systems exist as well, and the recommendations from others are around that system. Whichever way you go, I recommend understanding how each work, the advantages and disadvantages, and so forth.





I can tell your system was working because a white film developed—this evidences bacterial activity and is not harmful; it may eventually develop only in certain spots, or within rock work or other invisible location. This film is okay, and in ZEOvit system, serves as food. If you see a cloud, it's overdone. It would be wise to monitor pH; if pH falls too much from bacteria producing CO2, harm can befall the corals. CO2 production can be not only from carbon dosing, but also the bacteria purchased in bottles for the purpose of carbon dosing).

At this point, if nitrates and phosphates do not lower, it is due to insufficient carbon dosing. I recommend 4 mL/day of NO3PO4x for a week (split dosing AM + PM). I would task you with performing a nitrate and phosphate test in 1 week from today. If you perform a water change, I would ask that you perform a test before and after the change.

I anticipate probably having to raise this to 5-7 mL over a few weeks. If you can keep track of approximately how much water you changed, that would be helpful.

Also, the amount of vinegar and NO3PO4x is not 1:1 .. this is a lot of discussion on DIY NO3PO4x, which can in part be at least emulated using part vinegar and part vodka (if interested, it is Randy Holmes-Farley's post #12):

high Phosphate

hello all. my aquarium is 5 months old FOWLR at the moment. i checked my phosphate 3 days ago and it was .445 ppm. two days ago my readings came as .613ppm done by Hanna ULR so i ran gfo in a reactor. yesterday my phosphate dropped to .236ppm. i did a 10% water change today, my question is...

www.reef2reef.com

Might need to raise phosphate a bit. The strong bacteria growth should have been the time the nitrate concentration should been declining. Did it?

It did not decline, the bacterial growth clogged my filter roller which I took offline, then it accumulated in my skimmer on the needle wheel etc, I am guessing I will ramp up phosphates and just deal with the bacterial slime for a bit

 

[liam]

Try to see if you can keep the phosphate fairly constant at close to around 0.005 to 0.025 ppm range. My recommendation is to design your food input and carbon source dosings so that phosphate is within this range. For my recommended phosphate range, the nitrate is well out-of-range.

I would decide what sort of reef you wish to build. I prefer low nitrate and phosphate systems associated with KZ and others. However, other systems exist as well, and the recommendations from others are around that system. Whichever way you go, I recommend understanding how each work, the advantages and disadvantages, and so forth.





I can tell your system was working because a white film developed—this evidences bacterial activity and is not harmful; it may eventually develop only in certain spots, or within rock work or other invisible location. This film is okay, and in ZEOvit system, serves as food. If you see a cloud, it's overdone. It would be wise to monitor pH; if pH falls too much from bacteria producing CO2, harm can befall the corals. CO2 production can be not only from carbon dosing, but also the bacteria purchased in bottles for the purpose of carbon dosing).

At this point, if nitrates and phosphates do not lower, it is due to insufficient carbon dosing. I recommend 4 mL/day of NO3PO4x for a week (split dosing AM + PM). I would task you with performing a nitrate and phosphate test in 1 week from today. If you perform a water change, I would ask that you perform a test before and after the change.

I anticipate probably having to raise this to 5-7 mL over a few weeks. If you can keep track of approximately how much water you changed, that would be helpful.

Also, the amount of vinegar and NO3PO4x is not 1:1 .. this is a lot of discussion on DIY NO3PO4x, which can in part be at least emulated using part vinegar and part vodka (if interested, it is Randy Holmes-Farley's post #12):

high Phosphate

hello all. my aquarium is 5 months old FOWLR at the moment. i checked my phosphate 3 days ago and it was .445 ppm. two days ago my readings came as .613ppm done by Hanna ULR so i ran gfo in a reactor. yesterday my phosphate dropped to .236ppm. i did a 10% water change today, my question is...

www.reef2reef.com

Hi thanks for the response, my phosphate is already in the range you are recommending, I was not dosing vinegar at the same ratio as the nopox, I followed the schedule on advanced aquarist, loosely, more aggressively In the end.I ran zeovit system 15 years ago with great success.
I dealt with the bacterial slime for about a month or more with no reduction in nitrate.The problem was the slime was congregating in my skimmer and rollermat,took the rollermat offline but the skimmer was being compromised.
I will bring nopox up to 4ml, it is being dosed via ghl doser and try to raise phosphates a little and try and ride out the slime again.
My confusion lies with the rapid increase after my last water change, if I did not add a nitrate source and the sand/system is clean, and I was dosing 3 ml nopox and measured 0.025 p04, why did it climb so quickly, thanks

 

[ReefGeezer]

My confusion lies with the rapid increase after my last water change, if I did not add a nitrate source and the sand/system is clean, and I was dosing 3 ml nopox and measured 0.025 p04, why did it climb so quickly, thanks

Have yo seen a decline in your CUC population? A large die off could explain the rise. Even a big die off of bacteria could be the culprit. The slime you mention is maybe a clue. If the bacteria (the slime) is not removed before it dies, the nutrients bound within are returned to the system.

You might avoid the slime by using only vinegar for carbon dosing. I got the slime you are speaking of once when dosing vinegar, but it turned out to be fueled by the addition of too much MB7. Once I stopped using that product the slime went away.

 

[liam]

Have yo seen a decline in your CUC population? A large die off could explain the rise. Even a big die off of bacteria could be the culprit. The slime you mention is maybe a clue. If the bacteria (the slime) is not removed before it dies, the nutrients bound within are returned to the system.

You might avoid the slime by using only vinegar for carbon dosing. I got the slime you are speaking of once when dosing vinegar, but it turned out to be fueled by the addition of too much MB7. Once I stopped using that product the slime went away.

No decline in cuc, the odd trochus snail now and again which I try to remove asap.
You could be right on the bacteria die off, when I had the slime it was impeeding the skimmer from pulling it. I dosed vinegar only for several months with no success and then went to nopox, I had been using mb7 in conjunction when I had the slime, I think I will just try nopox alone for a few weeks, raise p04 a bit and test regularly to see what the trend is.
I definitely agree to seeing more slime and a touch of cyano with nopox
Thanks

 

[ReefGeezer]

No decline in cuc, the odd trochus snail now and again which I try to remove asap.
You could be right on the bacteria die off, when I had the slime it was impeeding the skimmer from pulling it. I dosed vinegar only for several months with no success and then went to nopox, I had been using mb7 in conjunction when I had the slime, I think I will just try nopox alone for a few weeks, raise p04 a bit and test regularly to see what the trend is.
I definitely agree to seeing more slime and a touch of cyano with nopox
Thanks

Nopox is really no better than vinegar, but you need to dose much more vinegar to get the same amount of carbon. I choose vinegar It doesn't seem to encourage Cyano as much, is super cheap, and is more forgiving if slightly overdosed. If it didn't work when dosed alone, something else was wrong at the time i.e. phosphate limited, lack of effective export, low dosing quantities, or etc.. For example the ethanol in vodka contains something like 8X more carbon than the acetic acid in vinegar. These are probably the two active ingredients in Nopox. You really have to be prepared to up the dose until nitrate starts to fall or signs of overdose start to show up. You can do so a little more aggressively with vinegar than you can with vodka or Nopox.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Did you test your source water and RODI water for nitrates?
It's possible you're adding nitrates when you do water changes...

 

[liam]

Did you test your source water and RODI water for nitrates?
It's possible you're adding nitrates when you do water changes...

Yes I have , source water is not the culprit

 

[ナイトコア猫]

I dealt with the bacterial slime for about a month or more with no reduction in nitrate.The problem was the slime was congregating in my skimmer and rollermat,took the rollermat offline but the skimmer was being compromised.
I will bring nopox up to 4ml, it is being dosed via ghl doser and try to raise phosphates a little and try and ride out the slime again.

I think this is the right course of action. If you were success with KZ, then my thoughts typically are in line with KZ and Triton methodologies.

I would recommend not adding phosphate and seeing what affect the carbon dosing has on phosphate. Once established, make adjustments then.

My confusion lies with the rapid increase after my last water change, if I did not add a nitrate source and the sand/system is clean, and I was dosing 3 ml nopox and measured 0.025 p04, why did it climb so quickly, thanks

During this time, these animals were not in there?: Bioload is 2 small Darwin clowns, a 4 inch yellow coris wrasse, 3 inch tomini tang, 1 bangaii cardinal and a tailspot blenny.

 

[liam]

Nopox is really no better than vinegar, but you need to dose much more vinegar to get the same amount of carbon. I choose vinegar It doesn't seem to encourage Cyano as much, is super cheap, and is more forgiving if slightly overdosed. If it didn't work when dosed alone, something else was wrong at the time i.e. phosphate limited, lack of effective export, low dosing quantities, or etc.. For example the ethanol in vodka contains something like 8X more carbon than the acetic acid in vinegar. These are probably the two active ingredients in Nopox. You really have to be prepared to up the dose until nitrate starts to fall or signs of overdose start to show up. You can do so a little more aggressively with vinegar than you can with vodka or Nopox.

I'm going to stick with the nopox for now , mainly as it seems to have less impact on ph, if I ever get it under control and dose lower amounts as a maintenance dose I will probably go back to vinegar, definitely appreciate all the ideas,it's been driving me crazy lol, thanks

 

[JDCagley]

I'd like to confirm some values here - is OP stating PO4 was 0.024 or 0.24? My hanna checker only gives 2 decimal places and I find myslef (possibly) in a simialr postion - 0.23 PO4 and 43.1 NO3. The decimal places are highly important! I only wnat to ensure I am seeing these values correclty. Thanks.

 

[EZKLR]

Is something in your tank looking bad? or are you just worried about the numbers?

 

[liam]

I think this is the right course of action. If you were success with KZ, then my thoughts typically are in line with KZ and Triton methodologies.

I would recommend not adding phosphate and seeing what affect the carbon dosing has on phosphate. Once established, make adjustments then.



During this time, these animals were not in there?: Bioload is 2 small Darwin clowns, a 4 inch yellow coris wrasse, 3 inch tomini tang, 1 bangaii cardinal and a tailspot blenny.

Hi yes the animals were in there, seems like a very rapid increase for just the nitrate produced by these few. My view is my nitrates should not be where they are based on the system and my husbandry in the first place, also considering all the carbon dosing I have been doing for the last 8 months.
Yes I did have a bacterial bloom but even with wet skimming it seems the bacteria were not being removed from the system, maybe I just need to perservere through the bacterial slime for longer instead of backing off some, thanks.