Nitrates/Phos for Zoa Dominated

[shrimped]

Hi I have a frag tank thats zoa/paly focused (maybe 98% of the coral are zoas/palys). Last weeks nitrates are 6ppm and phosphates at 0.10ppm and i havent really decided to go to a lower nitrate/phos system or a higher nitrate/phos system. I know the majority would recommend a higher nitrate system for zoa/palys but i also heard from very few people that they grow better in the complete opposite. I would like to know why one might prefer higher nitrates while others think lower nitrates/phos is better for zoas/palys.

 

[A. grandis]

You can have up to .3 for phosphates and less than 5 nitrates.
In my system they can be both undetectable, or phosphates like .2 and very low nitrates.
I don't believe they do good with higher numbers.
In a mature system, if you keep low bioload (fishes) and feed small quantities of phosphate rich foods, with a lot of zoas, you don't have to worry too much. Make sure you do partial water changes and keep that skimmer running...
Problem comes when you have a bunch of fishes and feed them like 3 times a day and your system is still young.
Not a big deal.

 

[kkiel02]

You can have up to .3 for phosphates and less than 5 nitrates.
In my system they can be both undetectable, or phosphates like .2 and very low nitrates.
I don't believe they do good with higher numbers.
In a mature system, if you keep low bioload (fishes) and feed small quantities of phosphate rich foods, with a lot of zoas, you don't have to worry too much. Make sure you do partial water changes and keep that skimmer running...
Problem comes when you have a bunch of fishes and feed them like 3 times a day and your system is still young.
Not a big deal.

I think you mean .02 and .03 phosphates right? Mine stay around there but crept up to .15 before bringing them back down again.

 

[A. grandis]

Yeah, sorry.

 

[Stoney]

I don't believe they do good with higher numbers.

Any particular reason for this? There seems to be some evidence to the contrary. WWC keeps their nitrates around 20-25 and phosphates at 0.1 IIRC. I know they have a lot of acros too, but they have zoas growing right next to them in most of their displays.

Joshporksandwich keeps nitrate under 15

Zoa dominated 125g

Since october. I'm so happy that I'm going to replace all my metal halides in the 125g with hydras. Can't argue with success! I'm running two Primes over my 28G AIO using the Saxby lower power profile, but it's only been a couple of weeks. You're getting crazy results and will give your profile...

www.reef2reef.com

And phosphates under 0.15

Zoa dominated 125g

Looks like someone knows how to grow Zoo's. Awesome Tank.

www.reef2reef.com

Are you saying they'd get better growth or health with lower N/P?

 

[shrimped]

You can have up to .3 for phosphates and less than 5 nitrates.
In my system they can be both undetectable, or phosphates like .2 and very low nitrates.
I don't believe they do good with higher numbers.
In a mature system, if you keep low bioload (fishes) and feed small quantities of phosphate rich foods, with a lot of zoas, you don't have to worry too much. Make sure you do partial water changes and keep that skimmer running...
Problem comes when you have a bunch of fishes and feed them like 3 times a day and your system is still young.
Not a big deal.

Any particular reason for this? There seems to be some evidence to the contrary. WWC keeps their nitrates around 20-25 and phosphates at 0.1 IIRC. I know they have a lot of acros too, but they have zoas growing right next to them in most of their displays.

Joshporksandwich keeps nitrate under 15

Zoa dominated 125g

Since october. I'm so happy that I'm going to replace all my metal halides in the 125g with hydras. Can't argue with success! I'm running two Primes over my 28G AIO using the Saxby lower power profile, but it's only been a couple of weeks. You're getting crazy results and will give your profile...

www.reef2reef.com

And phosphates under 0.15

Zoa dominated 125g

Looks like someone knows how to grow Zoo's. Awesome Tank.

www.reef2reef.com

Are you saying they'd get better growth or health with lower N/P?

Thank you both for your inputs. I kinda want to finally settle if higher or lower nitrates are better for zoas/palys. What does nitrates even do for zoas?

 

[A. grandis]

Any particular reason for this? There seems to be some evidence to the contrary. WWC keeps their nitrates around 20-25 and phosphates at 0.1 IIRC. I know they have a lot of acros too, but they have zoas growing right next to them in most of their displays.

Joshporksandwich keeps nitrate under 15

Zoa dominated 125g

Since october. I'm so happy that I'm going to replace all my metal halides in the 125g with hydras. Can't argue with success! I'm running two Primes over my 28G AIO using the Saxby lower power profile, but it's only been a couple of weeks. You're getting crazy results and will give your profile...

www.reef2reef.com

And phosphates under 0.15

Zoa dominated 125g

Looks like someone knows how to grow Zoo's. Awesome Tank.

www.reef2reef.com

Are you saying they'd get better growth or health with lower N/P?

They can live in higher numbers and they will be "good". I had times when I didn't do water changes for 5 months and the tank had high nutrients, but in the wild, where the zoas live, the nitrates and phosphates are undetectable. I should say it would be better to keep them as low as possible IMO.
It is good to remind us that "undetectable" doesn't mean there is non.
In another hand phosphates have to be in the water in order to have life.
Please note that when we feed our tanks we are constantly adding phosphates and the reality in a close system is a balance of ins and outs in regards to nutrients and bio filtration.
Not a big deal for any matured system.
The other people can do whatever they want and I'm just saying what I do.
They use LEDs and think that is the best. I don't! Everyone is different.
I try to mimic the examples I see in nature.
And please do what you think is best for you.

 

[A. grandis]

Thank you both for your inputs. I kinda want to finally settle if higher or lower nitrates are better for zoas/palys. What does nitrates even do for zoas?

In the nutrient balance zoas might take phosphates and nitrates from the water.
Every system is very different in bio load in general, and age. That will make a huge influence in that nutrient balance.
People tend to put general rules for this type of stuff and they are just wasting time.
Not a big deal. Learn how to "read" your system and forget others. My writing is just to let you know how we find them in nature and that high nutrient rules aren't to be followed as a natural approach.
I would avoid high nutrients, specially if those zoas are in a mixed reef.
SPS corals will hate nutrients too high.
Another thing people should have in mind is that if you keep it too high and you have a problem it will pass it's limits and a crash can happen. That also could happen when nutrients get it's limits on the lower side with the use of GFO, for example. By the way I do not recommend GFO specially for zoas.
Don't follow me, follow what's best for YOUR system, unless you have a tank just like mine, which is impossible. They are all different no matter what.
The last but not the least... nutrient control will help you control algae!!!
Enjoy!

 

[shrimped]

Well said about zoas in the wild. I didnt take in the natural perspective of things. Zoas are just messing with my brain lol. Some like high light, some like low light, some are even nps coral, branching varieties and parasitic types. Like you said, most common zoas in the wild are in low, almost undetectable nitrates while I heard some other people say they find em near sewage systems. murky water and all that. Some people (like me) swear by Vitamin C dosing, iodine dosing, and even potassium dosing for zoas. I wish there was a one single rule to keep all of them happy and popping new polyps every week but I know thats not possible lol. Maybe its time to make a chart for all of em . Regardless of all that I'll just stick to what works for me atm and maybe try things here and there to see how they react. Thank you Grandis for informing me about nitrates/phosphate for zoas.

 

[A. grandis]

You're welcome...
Talking about the finding zoas by sewage systems... you will find lots of creatures around those areas! Even nice and hard to keep fishes. Will anyone try to keep those numbers as a "healthy reference"? Are those zoanthids found in those areas healthy and at their best?
Those examples shouldn't be followed IMO. We can find Morish Idols living in very dirty waters that you and me would never touch with the finger. Does that mean we should have them in the same situation in our home tanks? Oh, maybe that's why people can't keep Morish Idols, cause they like "dirty water". No way!
Some other areas you can find zoas and sometimes it's kinda dirty with sediments, like river mouths, but that is only temporary after rain.
Vitamin C , amino acids and iodine have their use in our systems but they have to be dosed with caution and every system has different needs! The less you dose the safer you are and better results. Better dose small in a long run than a bunch at once. Only as needed. With good lights we hardly will dose anything.

Oh man... I gotta go work. Cheers! ;Wideyed

 

[Stoney]

They can live in higher numbers and they will be "good". I had times when I didn't do water changes for 5 months and the tank had high nutrients

Learn how to "read" your system and forget others.

Mind if I ask what specific observations you made when the nutrients were too high? I think I've gotten a hang of reading my zoas for light/flow, but haven't learned nutrients yet.

And by the way, I'm not really on either side here, just playing devils advocate and trying to learn more. I definitely see the merit in mirroring ocean parameters, but corals seem to be incredibly adaptable. Not to mention the fact that nature isn't always perfect at what it does. Humans have optimized a number of processes to far greater degrees than nature. IMO we should stick to objective metrics like growth rate and perhaps polyp structure to judge which nutrient level is best. Coloration is probably too subjective to base anything on.

 

[A. grandis]

Mind if I ask what specific observations you made when the nutrients were too high? I think I've gotten a hang of reading my zoas for light/flow, but haven't learned nutrients yet.

And by the way, I'm not really on either side here, just playing devils advocate and trying to learn more. I definitely see the merit in mirroring ocean parameters, but corals seem to be incredibly adaptable. Not to mention the fact that nature isn't always perfect at what it does. Humans have optimized a number of processes to far greater degrees than nature. IMO we should stick to objective metrics like growth rate and perhaps polyp structure to judge which nutrient level is best. Coloration is probably too subjective to base anything on.

Nutrients too high = more algae, not good, more maintenance after.
After the water change, the polyps opened more than usual...
They loved the new water after those nutrients were too high for a while.
In every spot in nature, under normal conditions, where you can find healthy zoanthis you will find very low nutrients and better colors. They are mostly brown in higher nutrient water in the wild. We do have temporary events, like the river mouths example, but the normal conditions are low nutrients, good current (plenty O2) and great sun light! All respecting nature's rules. IMPO that is the perfect for them. I have the colors and growth I see in the nature and most times it's too much too keep up with. LOL!
Have a blessed day. I really have to go to work now.

 

[Stoney]

Nutrients too high = more algae, not good, more maintenance after.
After the water change, the polyps opened more than usual...
They loved the new water after those nutrients were too high for a while.

Haha yea work comes first, appreciate the last minute response.

More algae is definitely a bad thing, but a good CUC can keep algae in check even at higher nutrient levels. And isn't it possible that the water change replenished some trace element that was deficient, and that was the cause for polyps opening more? I used to see the same thing after doing water changes on one of my tanks that always had zero N/P. I don't know how large your system and water changes are, but assuming 25% water changes, 75% of high nutrients is still relatively high nutrients.

 

[A. grandis]

Yeah, I was just writing about what I've noticed.
We don't really know why exactly.

 

[shrimped]

In every spot in nature, under normal conditions, where you can find healthy zoanthis you will find very low nutrients and better colors. They are mostly brown in higher nutrient water in the wild.

This is pretty darn interesting and it does make sense to see brighter colored coral in lower nutrient areas and less colorful ones in higher. It just doesn't seem right to see colorful coral near sewage systems and murky waters. I would like to hear more from others who have visited both locations and see if their observations are similar.