Nitrites not going away

[Mikey Mane The Flare]

I would put Nitrite remover in the filter it's a little mesh bag of something good for a month. Add fish and when you ammonia is 0 cycle is done. Remove bag after one month

 

[rcpalmer1]

I took my daughter to the aquarium in New Orleans. She loved it so much we stopped on the way back home to Mississippi and bought some damsels. After a four hour ride I had to go looking for a tank to buy. Bought my first tank and the fish lived for years.

My newest tank has had water in it for about 6 weeks. First two corals went in 4 weeks ago, third and fourth about two weeks ago. First fish and two more corals last week. Shrimp went in today. I am getting ready to contact World Wide Coral to have them put together a large package the end on the month.

My 55 gallon tank has about sixty corals in it. It has a HOB overflow. It goes into sump I made/ modified. I have Seacheam Matrix in it with a cheap protien skimmer and a $7 return pump I bought off ebay. For less than $300 I have a filter system that can handle everything I throw at it.

 

[Lasse]

Have you double check your nitrite test? It could show wrong figures

The nitrification cycle works in two stages with two different type of bacteria. First step ammonia/ammoniac to nitrite, second step nitrite to nitrate. In the start it often happens that the process stops between the two steps and nitrite will be accumulated. Really why this happens is not completely clear – it’s like it exist a trigger point for the second step to start.

However this has a very little effect if you are running a seawater system. Nitrite is not very toxic for saltwater species of fish. The reason for this is that nitrite is picked up through the gill (probably trough channels in the cell membrane). But concentrations of chlorides in the water as low as 70 – 80 ppm will block this uptake. Normally sea water has a chloride concentration of around 19 000 ppm. Even in freshwater you can stop the uptake of nitrite through adding around 15 ml of table salt per 100 litre water.

If your test still show around 0.25 – 0.5 ppm and that you relay on your test you should NOT add any more ammonia – if you should add anything at all – add bacteria from the nitrospira or nitrobacter genus. I´m from the old Swedish school of nitrification and still believe nitrobacter to be the most common bacteria in the second step. This genus you can find in the upper soil segment in a nearby forest. I have started aquarium with water filtrated through forest soil. Just take two hands of soil in a bucket and add water. Mix. Filtrate through a coffee filter, put the filtrate (water) in the chiller and add some every day for the first 3 weeks. You can also squeeze a filter from another aquarium – fresh or salt does not matter – dilute it with some water and add the mixed liquid each day for a couple of week.

To say that using a fish in the cycling process is cruel - is for me totally wrong.

If you do the thing right you do not use the fish to indicate good water or not – you use the fish to produce ammonia for the cycling process. If an aquarium is new started it has no organic matter, no bacterial production of ammonia will occur – the fish is the only producer of ammonia. And how much it will produce depends on how much you feed him/her. You will control the ammonia production totally through your feeding regime.

The way I have started the nitrification process in a countless number of aquariums (and recirculated fish farms) has been (for the aquariums – the fish farms need a little more fishes ) to get a fish that is well feed and that will show up in the tank. My favourite for saltwater is the maroon clown. I put in my decorations, gravel and other things - mix the water – wait one day and add the fish. The first week I feed the fish 3 or 4 adult artemia (frozen) every THIRD day, not more. Second week I give the same amount every SECOND day and the third week – same amount EVERY day. After the fourth week I slowly rise the feeding and amount of fishes. I also add bacteria (commercial nitrification bacteria – no mix with “benefit” bacteria that normally are heterotrophs that will concur with the nitrification bacteria about space - or bacteria from sources describe above).

After three or four days I add my clean-up crew (before the algae population has grown to large) and I also introduce some hardy corals. I use a large numbers of cleaners – and as many species as possible. In my 300 litres DT I have around 100 + of different snails, 40 + of hermits (different species), one sea cucumber, one diadema urchin, three sand sea stars and some crabs

Note - corals are consumers – not producers - they will not rise the biological load – instead they will help to reduce it. I also use living sand, living rocks (for the hitchhikers) and after a week – I use to add some nitrates (1 – 3 ppm). I do not clean or prepare my living rocks – the phosphorus they bring with is what the tank need in the start to give a living ecosystem in a couple of months. And the organics and algae they content is food for my clean-up crew in the beginning.

For the notes – I have never lose a pilot fish, I seldom read any ammonia or nitrite. As I stated earlier – nitrite is not a problem in salt water. I have neither get any algae attack in the start.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[jrwoltman]

I would stop adding stuff and use live rock and a few fish your tank like 10. Blue chr Or clowns. Get a real cycle going

Terrible advice. I can't believe people still fish cycle. DO NOT DO THIS.

 

[jsker]

Have you double check your nitrite test? It could show wrong figures

The nitrification cycle works in two stages with two different type of bacteria. First step ammonia/ammoniac to nitrite, second step nitrite to nitrate. In the start it often happens that the process stops between the two steps and nitrite will be accumulated. Really why this happens is not completely clear – it’s like it exist a trigger point for the second step to start.

However this has a very little effect if you are running a seawater system. Nitrite is not very toxic for saltwater species of fish. The reason for this is that nitrite is picked up through the gill (probably trough channels in the cell membrane). But concentrations of chlorides in the water as low as 70 – 80 ppm will block this uptake. Normally sea water has a chloride concentration of around 19 000 ppm. Even in freshwater you can stop the uptake of nitrite through adding around 15 ml of table salt per 100 litre water.

If your test still show around 0.25 – 0.5 ppm and that you relay on your test you should NOT add any more ammonia – if you should add anything at all – add bacteria from the nitrospira or nitrobacter genus. I´m from the old Swedish school of nitrification and still believe nitrobacter to be the most common bacteria in the second step. This genus you can find in the upper soil segment in a nearby forest. I have started aquarium with water filtrated through forest soil. Just take two hands of soil in a bucket and add water. Mix. Filtrate through a coffee filter, put the filtrate (water) in the chiller and add some every day for the first 3 weeks. You can also squeeze a filter from another aquarium – fresh or salt does not matter – dilute it with some water and add the mixed liquid each day for a couple of week.

To say that using a fish in the cycling process is cruel - is for me totally wrong.

If you do the thing right you do not use the fish to indicate good water or not – you use the fish to produce ammonia for the cycling process. If an aquarium is new started it has no organic matter, no bacterial production of ammonia will occur – the fish is the only producer of ammonia. And how much it will produce depends on how much you feed him/her. You will control the ammonia production totally through your feeding regime.

The way I have started the nitrification process in a countless number of aquariums (and recirculated fish farms) has been (for the aquariums – the fish farms need a little more fishes ) to get a fish that is well feed and that will show up in the tank. My favourite for saltwater is the maroon clown. I put in my decorations, gravel and other things - mix the water – wait one day and add the fish. The first week I feed the fish 3 or 4 adult artemia (frozen) every THIRD day, not more. Second week I give the same amount every SECOND day and the third week – same amount EVERY day. After the fourth week I slowly rise the feeding and amount of fishes. I also add bacteria (commercial nitrification bacteria – no mix with “benefit” bacteria that normally are heterotrophs that will concur with the nitrification bacteria about space - or bacteria from sources describe above).

After three or four days I add my clean-up crew (before the algae population has grown to large) and I also introduce some hardy corals. I use a large numbers of cleaners – and as many species as possible. In my 300 litres DT I have around 100 + of different snails, 40 + of hermits (different species), one sea cucumber, one diadema urchin, three sand sea stars and some crabs

Note - corals are consumers – not producers - they will not rise the biological load – instead they will help to reduce it. I also use living sand, living rocks (for the hitchhikers) and after a week – I use to add some nitrates (1 – 3 ppm). I do not clean or prepare my living rocks – the phosphorus they bring with is what the tank need in the start to give a living ecosystem in a couple of months. And the organics and algae they content is food for my clean-up crew in the beginning.

For the notes – I have never lose a pilot fish, I seldom read any ammonia or nitrite. As I stated earlier – nitrite is not a problem in salt water. I have neither get any algae attack in the start.



Sincerely Lasse

Great information

 

[Lasse]

Terrible advice. I can't believe people still fish cycle. DO NOT DO THIS.

Why is cycling with fish so bad. Doing in the right way - its the best methode ever.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[SashimiTurtle]

Why is cycling with fish so bad. Doing in the right way - its the best methode ever.

Sincerely Lasse

You're exposing fish to extremly high levels of ammonia. We have cultured bacteria packaged in bottles now to boost cycles along. No fish harmed. This isn't 1970, there are people out there who want our hobby shut down completely. Killing fish cycling a tank is the reason those people exist.

 

[brandon429]

There are ways of making sure they have no free ammonia present that's what he means.

Our large cycling thread covers instant cycling. The reason it's a tool in the reefing bag is for things like emergency hospital tanks and frankly it's avail to anyone who starts a tank since the method is used to save them.

No uninformed new keeper should do it

Due to universal rules of microbiology an informed keeper can simply repeat a few steps and they will not expose new fish to ammonia. Agreed this is riskier method than adding fish to aged tanks, but bacteria transfer in predictable ways and this can be utilized a few different handy ways

The best way to view a fishless cycle is it's likely a violation of decent quarantine protocol. Ammonia won't be the issue, fish loss due to biotic agents soon after could be.

Fishless cycling uses suspended nitrifiers added from bottle to handle nitrification. The truly cycled tank has been submerged long enough to have the critical surface areas as the locus of filtration. In time, that migration on surfaces occurs. Before then, if the timing is such that X acceptable amount of bioload is in suspension with agreed X amnt of bottle bac, the conversion occurs above the substrate.

There's fifty different posted online methods for fishless cycling and the variation makes for lots of lost fish. The pure biological method is 100% repeatable as ammonia is the easiest to control molecule in all of reefing but in the very least I think a reef keeper should verify a tanks ability to oxidize ammonia first, then use only quarantined fish thereafter.

The water filtered through soil is perfect it would likely beat any bottle bac in terms of variable species that conduct nitrification and inherent sustenance in the exact ratios they're adapted to


considering nitrite after the known submersion times causes hesitation in lots of posts. If it helps to know specific cause mechanisms I've seen one of them is variation in the starting amount of ammonia. Depending on how a keeper inputs and measures and sustains cycling ammonia levels, unnatural excesses can still persist at day 30 though you could change out all the water from the tank, refill it, then pass a digestion test (because the required time frame had been met)

I wouldn't own a nitrite test due to biopride. only what ammonia does and a known required time frame of thirty days submersion matters.

 

[Lasse]

First - there is ammonia and there is ammonia. European and British English differ between the two forms of ammonia with the two names – ammonium and ammoniac. Ammonium is the ion (NH4) and ammoniac is the corresponding gas (NH3). Ammonium in the ion form (NH4) is not toxic to fish but the gas (NH3) is very toxic. Which form and how much of each form you will have in the water is depending of pH, temperature and pressure where temperature and pH is most important. If we look at a temperature of 25 degrees C and pH of 8 – 5.4 % of the complex ammonium/ammoniac (NH4/NH3) is in the form of the toxic form NH3. It means – if you read 1 ppm ammonium/ammoniac – the toxic form has a concentration of 0.058 ppm. If the pH is 8.5 – the corresponding toxic concentration is 15 % or 0.15 ppm. This concentration of ammoniac is harmful but if you do the cycling (with fish) in the right way you will never reach concentrations near this total figures (total NH4/NH3). There is also large problems to measure ammonium/ammoniac levels especially with hobby tests. There is some like seachem ammonia alert that measure the gas directly and give you a good idea about what happens but other test – I do not trust.

To understand the cycling you must be aware of where does the ammonium/ammoniac come from? In a new started aquarium there is no bacterial sources of ammonium/ammoniac – the only source is the fish itself. Land living organism – as we – will export surplus nitrogen through the urine but the fish will not export it through the urine. Especially not saltwater fishes that does not pee so much (of osmotic reasons). Instead they will export the surplus nitrogen through the gills as the ion NH4. This process is an active process (it means – it can take place against a concentration) – the NH4 can stay low in the fish even if it’s higher in the water. Out in the water the complex NH4/NH3 will be in the ratio that the pH and temperature say. The gas NH3 can – if it is to high concentration – penetrate back in the fish (it is a question of concentrations and not an active process for the gas). Most of the excretion of surplus nitrogen (in the form of NH4) happens when the fish will be feed. It means that you can manage how much NH4 that will enter the water through how you feed the fish in the start. If you feed the fish with very small amount of food you will never, never build up any concentration of NH4/NH3 that will give toxic concentrations of NH3.

As you get low amounts of NH4/NH3 in the water – the bacteria that convert NH4 to NO2 will grow (nitrosomas sp) -> you will for a while accumulate NO2 in the water (until the second step starts) No2 is not toxic in a saltwater environment so it’s not as critical as in fresh water.

With the slow feeding method as I describe in my first post – I have cycled many aquariums (both fresh water and salt water) without measure any toxic levels of NH3 or NO2 at all – I do ad bacteria (of the right form) every day in one or another form for three weeks. It can be commercial products, sludge from working filters or own produced bacteria solution.

You have also to understand that the modern skimmers will aerate out nitrogen as NH3 (the gas) – and if NH3 disappear from the complex NH4/NH3 – a new equilibrium based on temperature and pH will appear between the ion and the gas. Say that you have 1 ppm of NH4/NH3 at a temperature and pH that says that 10 % is in the form of the gas (NH3). You aerate out this 0.1 ppm NH3 – the new equilibrium (the same temp and pH) will still be 10 % of the total – but now the total is 0.9 ppm -> the NH3 part is still 10 % -> 0.09 ppm – you aerate out this 0.09 ppm -> and so on.

For me – the fishless cycling with ammoniac or dead shrimps will leave the aquarium without any living organisms for the whole period of the cycling – min 3 weeks. But you will have nutrients in the water and risk a large algae growth. Another thing that happen is that you can´t control the concentrations of NH4/NH3 (especially not with the dead shrimp method) and the levels of NH3 will be so high that it kill most organism in your living rocks (giving more NH4/NH3 later on).

With using a fish as an ammonium producer (and through your feeding regime manage how small amounts that should be added) and bacteria solutions you can start your whole system in a way that is best for all organisms and prevent problems further on

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ebushrow]

"Fish" cycling was discontinued decades ago as deemed inhumane. Damage to the gills from the ammonia is permanent and can lead to death or shortened life span.

Amen to that! Why take any risks with our livestock...makes no sense to me....I also cycled with damsels back in the early 80's and have never done it since...no reason to do this IMO/IME

 

[RussiReef]

Have you double check your nitrite test? It could show wrong figures

The nitrification cycle works in two stages with two different type of bacteria. First step ammonia/ammoniac to nitrite, second step nitrite to nitrate. In the start it often happens that the process stops between the two steps and nitrite will be accumulated. Really why this happens is not completely clear – it’s like it exist a trigger point for the second step to start.

However this has a very little effect if you are running a seawater system. Nitrite is not very toxic for saltwater species of fish. The reason for this is that nitrite is picked up through the gill (probably trough channels in the cell membrane). But concentrations of chlorides in the water as low as 70 – 80 ppm will block this uptake. Normally sea water has a chloride concentration of around 19 000 ppm. Even in freshwater you can stop the uptake of nitrite through adding around 15 ml of table salt per 100 litre water.

If your test still show around 0.25 – 0.5 ppm and that you relay on your test you should NOT add any more ammonia – if you should add anything at all – add bacteria from the nitrospira or nitrobacter genus. I´m from the old Swedish school of nitrification and still believe nitrobacter to be the most common bacteria in the second step. This genus you can find in the upper soil segment in a nearby forest. I have started aquarium with water filtrated through forest soil. Just take two hands of soil in a bucket and add water. Mix. Filtrate through a coffee filter, put the filtrate (water) in the chiller and add some every day for the first 3 weeks. You can also squeeze a filter from another aquarium – fresh or salt does not matter – dilute it with some water and add the mixed liquid each day for a couple of week.

To say that using a fish in the cycling process is cruel - is for me totally wrong.

If you do the thing right you do not use the fish to indicate good water or not – you use the fish to produce ammonia for the cycling process. If an aquarium is new started it has no organic matter, no bacterial production of ammonia will occur – the fish is the only producer of ammonia. And how much it will produce depends on how much you feed him/her. You will control the ammonia production totally through your feeding regime.

The way I have started the nitrification process in a countless number of aquariums (and recirculated fish farms) has been (for the aquariums – the fish farms need a little more fishes ) to get a fish that is well feed and that will show up in the tank. My favourite for saltwater is the maroon clown. I put in my decorations, gravel and other things - mix the water – wait one day and add the fish. The first week I feed the fish 3 or 4 adult artemia (frozen) every THIRD day, not more. Second week I give the same amount every SECOND day and the third week – same amount EVERY day. After the fourth week I slowly rise the feeding and amount of fishes. I also add bacteria (commercial nitrification bacteria – no mix with “benefit” bacteria that normally are heterotrophs that will concur with the nitrification bacteria about space - or bacteria from sources describe above).

After three or four days I add my clean-up crew (before the algae population has grown to large) and I also introduce some hardy corals. I use a large numbers of cleaners – and as many species as possible. In my 300 litres DT I have around 100 + of different snails, 40 + of hermits (different species), one sea cucumber, one diadema urchin, three sand sea stars and some crabs

Note - corals are consumers – not producers - they will not rise the biological load – instead they will help to reduce it. I also use living sand, living rocks (for the hitchhikers) and after a week – I use to add some nitrates (1 – 3 ppm). I do not clean or prepare my living rocks – the phosphorus they bring with is what the tank need in the start to give a living ecosystem in a couple of months. And the organics and algae they content is food for my clean-up crew in the beginning.

For the notes – I have never lose a pilot fish, I seldom read any ammonia or nitrite. As I stated earlier – nitrite is not a problem in salt water. I have neither get any algae attack in the start.



Sincerely Lasse

Very informative article

 

[Big G]

So I am just about 4 weeks into having my tank setup and cycling. The tank is a 75 gallon tank with a trigger systems 34 sump. Whole system is roughly 90 gallons. I used roughly 80lbs of reef-cleaners dry rock, and 40lbs or caribsea Hawaiian black sand.

I started the cycle with bio-spira and dosing 2ppm ammonia. I have also been adding microbacter7 per instructions on bottle. I hit the point about a week ago where if I dosed the ammonia in the morning by the time I got home from work it would be back to zero.

The issue I'm having is nitrites initially measured around 2ppm after about a week and half, but for the past week or so they have stayed between 0.25ppm and 0.5ppm. I have not stopped dosing the microbacter7 or dosing ammonia, but am wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

Also I am using salifert test kits for amonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Is the ammonia that you are using free of additives?

 

[Piranhapat]

Usually it can take 6 -8 weeks. Be patient let it run its course. I wouldn't add ammonia, Once Ammonia gone, than let the nitrite run its course. Bacteria is growing just taking time. The more rocks and sand the better.. Only bacteria in bottle that can work faster is dr Tims.

 

[MasterAlgaeGrower]

Is the ammonia that you are using free of additives?

It is. I forget the name of it and am currently not home. I got it from a friend who used it to cycle his tank.

 

[Lasse]

Amen to that! Why take any risks with our livestock...makes no sense to me....I also cycled with damsels back in the early 80's and have never done it since...no reason to do this IMO/IME

My crucial point - done right - cycling through of a fish is not harmful to fish but may help to start the entire system in a biologically correct way. Our hobby is based on knowledge and our ability to use that knowledge in different situations.

The ammonium/ammoniac problem is not only a problem in the start – it is always a chemical and biological fact that you can have spikes of toxic ammoniac levels if something happens, overfeeding, crash in the bio filter or medication that kills the nitrification bacteria. The problem with setting up a quarantine tank or hospital tank has been mentioned before in this thread.

I always have a small and cheap internal filter with foam filtration in my sump. It is there of three reasons – to help in the biological filtration and take away surplus ammonium from the system – and to be a reserve if I need to start an hospital or quarantine tank in a fast way. The cycling of the new tank is already been done if you fill it up with water from your aquaria, ad living sand and move the already cycled internal filter to the new tank. Just be aware that you do not overfeed the new tank. The third reason is that I squeeze the foam (in the sump) every second or third day to give bacterial food for my filter feeders. It’s located just in front of my return pump. To give a good nitrification rate – cleaning of the foam is critical – inside or outside the aquarium – and a good circulation through it

There is also indications that ammonium (even low levels with no impact on fish health) will have nuisance algae to thrive – it is their favorite nitrogen source.

For me – it’s important to address the facts in the right way – with knowledge of what’s happen when you start a new tank. Not with tips and tricks that end up in a dead end street and give no further knowledge to newcomers.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mikey Mane The Flare]

Thankyou

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So would the assumption be I just don't have a big enough or strong enough bacteria population yet? Maybe just taking it's sweet time.

Some folks get stalled cycles and I don't think its really clear why.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

For what its worth, in this case ammonia is not an issue, and nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at these levels (or even much higher levels) so adding fish now is an OK plan, even when one believes it isn't for initial cycling.

 

[MasterAlgaeGrower]

Thanks everybody for all the great info!

 

[Brew12]

For what its worth, in this case ammonia is not an issue, and nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at these levels (or even much higher levels) so adding fish now is an OK plan, even when one believes it isn't for initial cycling.

This +1

If your system is rapidly converting ammonia to nitrate you can add fish. As Randy points out, nitrites are terrible for fresh water fish, not so much for salt water. The chlorides in the water block the fish from absorbing nitrites. The other reason not to worry is that hobby level test kits aren't exactly accurate. Too many issues to cause false positives.

If you have ammonia dropping and nitrate climbing there are only two options. Either the nitrites are being converted to nitrate and it is a false positive or you have a massive number of nitrospira bacteria converting ammonia directly to nitrate. Either way, you are fine to add fish.