No Cycle?

[brandon429]

That's really above par preps for them great job. That's big prep effort anyone in the disease forum would respect

Balancing ammonia in the low surface area qt is ten times harder than the rock display, considering that feed diversity, nice cycle control here too

 

[ReefGeezer]

Thx. A bit confused though. If there is enough bacteria so as to not have to add any additional, then by default it s/b fine….theoretically anyway.

I won't get into the biology involved, mainly because I'm not the best one to do that. I'll approach the answer from a different angle... RISK.

You quarantined your fish. You chose the most conservative method for managing the risk of disease. Great choice.
Conservative actions are generally a better way to approach managing risks in a tank. Adding bioload as slowly as possible is another risk management strategy. If you have the capacity to add one fish at a time and allow the bacteria that drive the nitrogen cycle to balance naturally, why not do so? If you can add one fish and observe its impact to the system, why not do so? The risks you are trying to manage here is the possibility that somehow, an ammonia spike will occur and stress all the fish in the tank, and the risk that your system might not have the capacity to handle the additional dissolved organic carbon generated by the addition load.

As far as aged system, we could apply that to its ultimate and wait years. So the question is how much time to wait where it really makes a difference? Yes they are big eaters but I wouldn't consider them ultra sensitive. Expensive yes!

On the other front still no ammonia or nitrites. Thx folks really enjoying the conversation…..

As far as the "age" of a system... The nitrogen cycle is only one of a host of processes that develop over time in a tank. While early on, it is very important, it becomes less so as other processes develop. We can only do so much to speed up those processes. Age is not a good measure of a tank's capability. The relative maturity (or immaturity) of the processes in a tank can really determine how easy it is to maintain and how resistant it is to our mistakes.

 

[Flame2hawk]

I won't get into the biology involved, mainly because I'm not the best one to do that. I'll approach the answer from a different angle... RISK.

You quarantined your fish. You chose the most conservative method for managing the risk of disease. Great choice.
Conservative actions are generally a better way to approach managing risks in a tank. Adding bioload as slowly as possible is another risk management strategy. If you have the capacity to add one fish at a time and allow the bacteria that drive the nitrogen cycle to balance naturally, why not do so? If you can add one fish and observe its impact to the system, why not do so? The risks you are trying to manage here is the possibility that somehow, an ammonia spike will occur and stress all the fish in the tank, and the risk that your system might not have the capacity to handle the additional dissolved organic carbon generated by the addition load.



As far as the "age" of a system... The nitrogen cycle is only one of a host of processes that develop over time in a tank. While early on, it is very important, it becomes less so as other processes develop. We can only do so much to speed up those processes. Age is not a good measure of a tank's capability. The relative maturity (or immaturity) of the processes in a tank can really determine how easy it is to maintain and how resistant it is to our mistakes.

Thx for all this. I will add one of the angels in the next several days and observe for a bit before adding another. Other s have suggested that I also add some bacteria every time I add a fish. I recognize there are varying views on this as there is with many things in this hobby……….Thx again!

 

[Flame2hawk]

That's really above par preps for them great job. That's big prep effort anyone in the disease forum would respect

Balancing ammonia in the low surface area qt is ten times harder than the rock display, considering that feed diversity, nice cycle control here too

Thx!

 

[ReefGeezer]

Thx for all this. I will add one of the angels in the next several days and observe for a bit before adding another. Other s have suggested that I also add some bacteria every time I add a fish. I recognize there are varying views on this as there is with many things in this hobby……….Thx again!

You are welcome. Adding the bacteria probably doesn't hurt anything. How would you decide the dosage needed? I think in this case, too much is worse than not enough.

 

[Flame2hawk]

You are welcome. Adding the bacteria probably doesn't hurt anything. How would you decide the dosage needed? I think in this case, too much is worse than not enough.

Some suggest half the dose, some 1/4. I will probably go with 1/4.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Some suggest half the dose, some 1/4. I will probably go with 1/4.

I looked at the product documents. The manufacturer says Fritz-Zyme is safe to add to establish systems. Guess it won't harm anything even if severely overdosed.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Well added male personifier last night and boom, got an ammonia increase to 1.035ppm this morning. Think I will return personifier to his QT or should I just keep him in. He doesn't seem to be effected by it based on his behavior. I guess too much too soon…..

 

[Flame2hawk]

Well answered my own questions…..Added more Turbo after the elevated reading this morning and the ammonia level started coming down. Now it may have come down anyway if i would have left it alone but regardless reading now at 1.20 and the fish look happy! Will keep monitoring as it’s my guess the ammonia will keep going down as it is not unusual to get a bit of a spike when adding fish followed by a quick bounce back. Yippie!

 

[Flame2hawk]

HAven’t had a spike in 30 hours or so and even so the biggest spike before that was 1.035 ammonia then came right down again. Things pretty stable and fish are happy. Won’t add last fish (female personifier) until I’m sure coast is clear. Thx

 

[Flame2hawk]

HAven’t had a spike in 30 hours or so and even so the biggest spike before that was .35 ammonia then came right down again. Things pretty stable and fish are happy. Won’t add last fish (female personifier) until I’m sure coast is clear. Thx

 

[Flame2hawk]

1.035 was misstated of course. I meant .35ppm ammonia. When I also mentioned 1.20 etc, I meant .20 Sorry for confusion.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Well been stuck on .25ppm for ammonia. Hasn’t moved in days. Been dosing prime and fish are fine. Thought the turbo 900 would get me thru the cycle faster but it’s just stuck. Any suggestions?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Well been stuck on .25ppm for ammonia. Hasn’t moved in days. Been dosing prime and fish are fine. Thought the turbo 900 would get me thru the cycle faster but it’s just stuck. Any suggestions?

Stop using Prime. Stop adding Fritz-Zyme. Wait. If you are using an API ammonia test kit, get a better one.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Stop using Prime. Stop adding Fritz-Zyme. Wait. If you are using an API ammonia test kit, get a better one.

Don’t understand. I have 3 readings: sachem ammonia alert, API kit and Hanna. They are all saying the same thing .25ppm. Why would I then stop using prime of adding bacteria (turbo 900). Thx

As a side note, API testing when compared to Hanna are usually very close so don’t understand the aversion to API tests)

 

[ReefGeezer]

Don’t understand. I have 3 readings: sachem ammonia alert, API kit and Hanna. They are all saying the same thing .25ppm. Why would I then stop using prime of adding bacteria (turbo 900). Thx

As a side note, API testing when compared to Hanna are usually very close so don’t understand the aversion to API tests)

Prime claims to "detoxify" ammonia rather than removing it. I don't know how it works, but the ammonia is still there AND it has been shown to affect test kit readings. When talking about the difference between 0 and .25 ppm, it doesn't take much to invalidate the test even on the best kits. The resolution of most hobby grade kits for ammonia is probably greater than .1 ppm. API's resolution has been shown to be about .25 ppm. Regardless of the kit you used, even the drop you measured from .35 to .25 ppm is probably just noise.

The Fritz-Zyme contains things other than bacteria that your tank no longer needs now that it has life in it. You are simply adding stuff that is not necessary.

I would stop adding things and just wait.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Prime claims to "detoxify" ammonia rather than removing it. I don't know how it works, but the ammonia is still there AND it has been shown to affect test kit readings. When talking about the difference between 0 and .25 ppm, it doesn't take much to invalidate the test even on the best kits. The resolution of most hobby grade kits for ammonia is probably greater than .1 ppm. API's resolution has been shown to be about .25 ppm. Regardless of the kit you used, even the drop you measured from .35 to .25 ppm is probably just noise.

The Fritz-Zyme contains things other than bacteria that your tank no longer needs now that it has life in it. You are simply adding stuff that is not necessary.

I would stop adding things and just wait.

I haven't added turbo since the initial 2 times a couple of days apart. I did order more which will be here tomorrow but I guess I’ll just hold off using it. As far as prime usage, others swear by it during this cycling time especially. Are you suggesting that .25ppm (assuming accurate since reads that on al 3 testers) will do no harm to the fish? Thx

 

[brandon429]

here's where you stand

repeated from prior page: cease testing for the cycle you're extending your stress unnecessarily

the .25 you read can be googled: it's what a million fully stocked reef tanks run, because that's nh4 not nh3

that's the very reading that makes people distrust api, but it's not a bad readout it's what non digital test kits show for fully completely cycled reefs. there's always some low degree of ammonia in turnover inside stocked tanks, that's what it reads for million of reefers.

and we don't expect zero nh4 in anyone's stocked reef tank: your cycle is fine and will be fine. adding reactive items to your system using the rule of old cycling science is going to harm your setup eventually, simply reef on, put down any further ammonia or nitrite testing on this display. aim them towards your quarantine setup if you feel the need to test and re verify a closed cycle. live at peace with your display, it's ready and reefing.

If you get that same reading in a quarantine setup, that's safe zone, and if it rises you wouldn't use prime/ don't own prime/ you'd enact a water change and either keep up that response or you'd add more surface area to the quarantine that isn't from rock or sand. For example you'd add more matrix media etc so you get longer in between water change rescues.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I haven't added turbo since the initial 2 times a coupe of days apart. I did order more which will be here tomorrow but I guess I’ll just hold off using it. As far as prime usage, others swear by it during this cycling time especially. Are you suggesting that .25ppm (assuming accurate since reads that on al 3 testers) will do no harm to the fish? Thx

I doubt the accuracy of any of the tests while you are adding Prime. I'm not suggesting that .25 is optimal, just that the true level could be much lower. As to your question about toxicity, I think .25 ppm of ammonia is a stress factor for fish but they can live in it for quite a while. Note that your Seachem Ammonia Alert has an "Alarm" level of .3 ppm.

There are a lot of things recommended that wreck a simple process like "Cycling". In my opinion, using Prime is one of them.

 

[brandon429]

the badge reads in nh3, you can see it doesn't line up with the other test kits that read the same level as nh4 / 10x higher than actual nh3 levels yet they're all stating .25...these non digital kits are going to stress you out bigtime: trust that your display cycle is done, don't look back, this is my best advice to help you after logging thousands of these cycles online.

*you don't have to add animals one at a time then check the cycle: that's doubt. add what you're going to add based on disease preps, disease preps are what limit your fish addition rate its not a cycle limitation.

here's a thread where eight fish and hundreds of dollars in corals and anemones were added day one, with one single dose of bottle bac:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

your cycle was guided much more in depth than Ike's see how many fish his carried? yours can carry that same loading but the disease expression will get you, not the ammonia.

**you didn't really get an ammonia spike when adding the new fish*

we get those test kits showing spikes/failure to control ammonia if people move a rock inside their tank, or for no reason at all. that pain of perception is the exact reason I don't want or use non digital test kit readings in my cycle threads and we turn out perfect tanks ready to carry fish for ten straight years here.