No love for MH?

[Bpb]

I don't have experience with MH but I ran T5s for years before switching to LED.

For me personally, bulb changes and heat were actually major factors. I had a 36 inch 6 bulb T5 fixture so it cost me about $120 a year in bulbs. I use a fan to cool my tank, controlled by my Apex and and the fan runs less than half as much as it did with my T5s.

Heat might not be a problem for others who don't use a canopy or don't live in one of hottest cities in the country.

AC kept at 75. Runs whether I have a tank or not. Haven’t noticed it running much differently than when I ran leds only. It’s just hot here no matter how we slice it

 

[jda]

In the end, all of my observations and posts are mostly about acropora, being in the hobby for the long term (colonies instead of frags) and getting the color that most people who are like-minded want. Also about helping people get to a level higher than they are, if they are so inclined. I usually will suggest T5 or MH do the heavy lifting for these (outside of nano tanks) and that if black-light pop is necessary, then get some LED strips. I feel that they will shadow less later, cover well now and later, have fuller spectrum from 350 to 850nm and be a one-time buy. This only works for people who don't want apps and stuff. I do not feel that this is hating or bashing, only suggesting the best tool for these type of situations. I am not a one-size-fits-all kind of guy and I don't recommend these for everybody.

I tend to make people mad when I tell them that they might change their mind with more experience in a few years. By then, if they are still in the hobby, they are into huge colonies with shadows and stuff. Then, a lot of what people told them about their LEDs that they denied in the beginning starts to make sense. I do not feel that this is hating or bashing either, just help that is not ready to be accepted yet by all, but some do get it up front and their experience as a hobbyist is better for it, which I hope means that they will stay in the hobby longer.

How many people would have chosen differently if they knew that their sleek, sexy pair of $750 Radions were going to need to be hidden in AquaicLife Hybrids in a year or two? That their $1500 was not going to cut it later. Many admit that they would have chosen differently. They might have gone ATI from the get-go, or budget for more units, or whatever. I just want the ones likely to see this narrative to know it up front, even if it is hard to hear.

I think that it is OK to let people know who want to get hardcore into acropora that one day they might wish that they looked at MH from the beginning.

 

[fredk]

...In the end with health, I cannot get past this photo where the corals thrive despite being out of the water for about 8 hours. There is no planktonic food in this area, so light is all that they have for energy and they thrive and grow very well in an environment that nobody would argue that there is good stability:

How did you come to the conclusion there is no planktonic food in this area?

 

[Bpb]

How did you come to the conclusion there is no planktonic food in this area?

I think he means above water in low tide. No plankton there

 

[jda]

The marine biologist in the area told us. Corals in that area are only really fed in the lagoons and near shore, not out away from everything. You can tell where the gigas, other clams and sea fans and other filter feeders live.

Edit: if you are every on a snorkel or dive and see acropora and no sea fans or clams (in the pacific), then the acropora are not catching anything. Where there is stuff to filter out of the water, he said that it was abundant and could support more life than is there to catch it.

 

[fredk]

The marine biologist in the area told us. Corals in that area are only really fed in the lagoons and near shore, not out away from everything. You can tell where the gigas, other clams and sea fans and other filter feeders live.

Edit: if you are every on a snorkel or dive and see acropora and no sea fans or clams (in the pacific), then the acropora are not catching anything. Where there is stuff to filter out of the water, he said that it was abundant and could support more life than is there to catch it.

So there is not really any planktonic food washing over the area at high tide? I never really had an opportunity to look at any reef flats when I dove on the GBR.

I did one night dive though. The amount of planktonic life on the reef at night was absolutely amazing. I just figured that those critters would get washed over the flats during night time high tides.

 

[jda]

That is what he said. He was of the opinion that it did not matter anyway since they see now different growth rates in the different areas... just his opinion. He did indicate that the nems, LPS, NPS and some mushrooms in the area benefited in the lagoons and coastal areas. I am going to get this wrong since I cannot remember the exact number, but he said that a large T. Gigas clam could filter as much seawater than all the other life in a square kilometer... or something like that.

If you could see the plankton, it probably was not suitable food for most filter feeders, clams and any kind of SPS.

 

[fredk]

...

If you could see the plankton, it probably was not suitable food for most filter feeders, clams and any kind of SPS.

True, but I'm sure there was lots of smaller stuff in the water I could not see. All those critters breed...

 

[jda]

...and feed on stuff. For sure.

 

[A. grandis]

The truth about halides and T5s aren't restricted to SPS nor Acros only! I know jda is saying that because he is an Acro guy. And he is right to say hat. I love Acros too!!! But any corals (SPS/LPS, softs), anemone, clams, zoanthids, and any micro life in the system, will benefit from halides/T5s better than any LEDs. It has to do with UV, IR, uniform spectrum, reaching areas with properties (all properties/qualities of the nature of the light source) that LEDs can't (one can get the very best LED fixture in the world and I can get a nice halide system that will bit that LED in no time - simple way to put it), and embracing the system as a whole with uniformity and exploding life all over!!! Shimmer of halides is a big advantage over ANY type of lights discussed here. Halide's shimmer isn't only for aesthetics like many believe. Shimmer in the natural environment plays a lot for those organisms in the ocean! Just go snorkeling and you will understand what I'm talking about. Imitate nature in that sense and you will see the results! Artificial lights are different because of the simple fact their nature aren't the same and therefore will have different results. there is no better life. There is a better light for that particular application!!! If you use LEDs over a tank that you will be having corals coming and going for sale, those corals aren't going to stay there for too long. But when I'm talking about the health of the organisms we keep for long period of time the scenario changes. Make sure you understand all I've just wrote, cause each aspect is valuable to keep those organisms in perfect health when we are talking about light. Remember: halides will give your organisms a very similar light environment they have in nature. For the chart/graphics's lovers: halides aren't the sun per say! It is what comes closer to it's properties as a whole in an artificial way. The organisms we keep have a tremendous ability to adapt to any system, but if you want to get the best out of them using artificial light you have to choose the one similar to the natural in all the aspects. Just so people don't think halides is only for SPS or Acros only. A zoa tank will look astonishing with halides!! My very best tank had Iwasaki's and actinic blue bulbs back in the day. Colors were amazing and growth uncontrollable. Halides were on for just 4 hours a day or so. Fans to cool off the system and the actinics for 10 hours or so.
If people here (specially the newbies) knew that we are doing this to help them understand what serious reefkeeping is about and how simple it can be, they would thank us every second for all the time we've spent here. We aren't getting any money for this! Giving information for free is loving you! Go try and come back to tell us like all others are doing!
Now... if you really love the way your LEDs look, your corals are growing just fine, and if you're happy. That's great!
Peace!

 

[MnFish1]

The truth about halides and T5s aren't restricted to SPS nor Acros only! I know jda is saying that because he is an Acro guy. And he is right to say hat. I love Acros too!!! But any corals (SPS/LPS, softs), anemone, clams, zoanthids, and any micro life in the system, will benefit from halides/T5s better than any LEDs. It has to do with UV, IR, uniform spectrum, reaching areas with properties (all properties/qualities of the nature of the light source) that LEDs can't (one can get the very best LED fixture in the world and I can get a nice halide system that will bit that LED in no time - simple way to put it), and embracing the system as a whole with uniformity and exploding life all over!!! Shimmer of halides is a big advantage over ANY type of lights discussed here. Halide's shimmer isn't only for aesthetics like many believe. Shimmer in the natural environment plays a lot for those organisms in the ocean! Just go snorkeling and you will understand what I'm talking about. Imitate nature in that sense and you will see the results! Artificial lights are different because of the simple fact their nature aren't the same and therefore will have different results. there is no better life. There is a better light for that particular application!!! If you use LEDs over a tank that you will be having corals coming and going for sale, those corals aren't going to stay there for too long. But when I'm talking about the health of the organisms we keep for long period of time the scenario changes. Make sure you understand all I've just wrote, cause each aspect is valuable to keep those organisms in perfect health when we are talking about light. Remember: halides will give your organisms a very similar light environment they have in nature. For the chart/graphics's lovers: halides aren't the sun per say! It is what comes closer to it's properties as a whole in an artificial way. The organisms we keep have a tremendous ability to adapt to any system, but if you want to get the best out of them using artificial light you have to choose the one similar to the natural in all the aspects. Just so people don't think halides is only for SPS or Acros only. A zoa tank will look astonishing with halides!! My very best tank had Iwasaki's and actinic blue bulbs back in the day. Colors were amazing and growth uncontrollable. Halides were on for just 4 hours a day or so. Fans to cool off the system and the actinics for 10 hours or so.
If people here (specially the newbies) knew that we are doing this to help them understand what serious reefkeeping is about and how simple it can be, they would thank us every second for all the time we've spent here. We aren't getting any money for this! Giving information for free is loving you! Go try and come back to tell us like all others are doing!
Now... if you really love the way your LEDs look, your corals are growing just fine, and if you're happy. That's great!
Peace!

I appreciate all your answers (i.e. the time you spend here) - But - I will ask - if Halides are 'the best' what is the purpose of the T5's - is it just coverage? Some of the things being said are not logical (to me)

 

[Bpb]

I appreciate all your answers (i.e. the time you spend here) - But - I will ask - if Halides are 'the best' what is the purpose of the T5's - is it just coverage? Some of the things being said are not logical (to me)

You’ll get a mixture of answers here. there’s no one size fits all. A 120 gallon tank with a pair of 22x22” reflectors using 20k bulbs probably would have no use for t5’s because the par would be manageable enough to have a longer photoperiod, and the reflectors large enough to not lack coverage.

Some people like using a combo fixture with tiny little halide reflectors that don’t have the blanket coverage. But it’s a clean all in one unit, often that can be leg mounted to the tank.

Some people just like what additional colors adding various tube combinations will help to display

Some people want a longer photoperiod but don’t want to run their MH that long.

Every case is different.

On my 150 I am building with a tank footprint of 60”x24”x24” I’ll be employing 3-250 watt coralvue lumen bright mini pendants at 16.5” diameter octagon shape giving roughly 52” of lateral coverage. Hung at 18” off the water, the spread, even blanket distribution, and par will be perfectly sufficient alone. I won’t need additional supplemental lighting.

Could I get away with 2? And use 2x80 watt t5ho in front and in back instead? Sure...but why add 4 tubes when I can use a single additional pendant for less wattage, higher par, and cheaper bulb swap cost?

I’m one of the weird ones on here who chooses MH lighting because I believe it to be the most economical lighting choice. I’m on a budget. My budget doesn’t include 2-3 grand in led panels for my hobby. The fact that the lights I’ve chosen are easy to use, have zero learning curve, look beautiful, and are wildly effective is just a bonus.

 

[A. grandis]

I appreciate all your answers (i.e. the time you spend here) - But - I will ask - if Halides are 'the best' what is the purpose of the T5's - is it just coverage? Some of the things being said are not logical (to me)

Halides are the spot light, representing the sun.
The t5s are what we normally call the sky light (either when sun is out or during a cloudy day, for example).
In nature the sun comes and goes with the presence of clouds.
Some days will be totally cloudy. Other days will have clouds here and there. Some other days no more clouds.
Light in a reef tank can be administrated in a balanced representation of that. That's why there is no need of ON/OFF in a computer type of setting to recreate such natural phenomenon. One can use a simple timer and will have a great system because the quality of light is what will be used.
The total photoperiod available using artificial lights will give the properties of light to supply the needs of the organisms we keep in a balanced and limited way in terms of photoperiod time. Any artificial light source normally found available for reef tanks will KEEP the organisms ALIVE, but that doesn't mean that the organisms will actually have enough of each quality from that source to reach it's best in your reef tank. To better represent the QUALITIES of light, halides alone will do a great job! The use of T5s to offer a morning/evening effect and let the organisms rest before and after the halides will be somehow beneficial IMO, and that is what happens in nature, but absolutely not necessary for their metabolism. Keep in mind that halides alone are basically complete in many ways and will already do the job alone, but in nature we see many hours of clouds when snorkeling every single day. The best representation of that in a reef system comes from tubes like T5s and VHOs used with metal halide bulbs.
There is more to learn about photoperiod, wattage, photosynthesis, photoinhibition and the need of each individual system/organisms and as that particular system matures, but that is also relative to the learning/understanding/level of the hobbyist. Generally speaking and understanding/respecting the limits of the system, using the right fixture/ballast/bulbs for your system there will be no way you could go wrong.
Hope that helps.

 

[naterealbig]

Giesemann anything is sexy lighting.... like a Mercedes compared to a Suzuki.

BTW, Ive been debating on this bad boy.

Yes, true - I don't think I've seen a full size fixture from them that I didn't like.

This is actually one of my biggest gripes against LED - their form factor for large tanks absolutely sucks.

Grab the spectra while you can - the light is no longer for sale through Giesemann directly, so I assume that it is no longer in production. Occasionally, you will see a Spectra (or Infiniti - the double ended version with smaller reflectors) for sales on the boards here. This is how I got mine.

Fyi - the infinity and spectra (48" 2x250w version) both lit my 48"x38" display, very very nicely. No dark spots at all.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

I still have my 2 DE MH fixtures and am tempted to switch back ... darn hydro bill & heat build up. Big fan Phoenix 14K bulb & Aqua Medics 20K

 

[oreo54]

Think this is the best objective review ever..
LED warts and all.
BTW Since it isn't imported to the US there is no commercial reason to "sell" it..
There are plenty of points for discussion..but it summarizes almost all points of divergence between light type.
Only thing that most would say is the IR/UV part.. which I still think "needs work"..need/want.
NOTHING regarding affordability..or LOOK..

 

[MnFish1]

Question for @jda - and others - what do you think of this article...?https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

 

[jda]

I believe it as much as a bunch of studies by Phillip Morris that conclude that smoking is not harmful. The self-serving nature drowns out any points and data that might actually be good... just cannot trust any of it. I feel the same way about the reef shops and the message board posters that are given free product to shill for them.

When AquaMedic used to make MH bulbs, they had papers and studies that said that their bulbs were the best. I did not want to see any of these either. Their bulbs were not as good as others, IMO.

I put much more stock into Therman or Adam's (for example, this is not a comprehensive list) reviews of their panels since they were purchased, used and opinions given without any kind of incentive.

 

[Bpb]

Question for @jda - and others - what do you think of this article...?https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

I’ve read it many times. I’m sure that facility is doing fine with whatever they’re using. They are providing one example of their lights working. We can all go hunt down examples of identical specimens to what they’re showing that are more vibrantly colored under other lighting. I bet you can even find some black box users out there with better color and growth. I won’t refute what they’re claiming as lies. Just saying it doesn’t matter because the lights are a poor value. Their cost/effectiveness ratio is undesirable.

 

[A. grandis]

Question for @jda - and others - what do you think of this article...?https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

What I think?
>Another nice white and clean "Apple like" PDF to grab newbies by the hook and people who never had halides and/or tubes over their systems to know better, trying to proof at all costs that halides and tubes aren't as good as their LEDs. And they are not kidding!
> A great way to make yourself comfortable and confident after buying their products.
> Another reason for people like me and others to come here and tell the truth.
> Just a "nice try"!
Coral lab = EcoTech Marine.
All those guys are probably watching us here. Their sponsored persons and companies are probably also coming here to watch us and report in their meetings. It's a nice web of companies IMO. Business is business. They have an aggressive market strategy. They are just doing their jobs and very well in that sense. I appreciate their efforts, but they should play nicer!!! Too bad the hobby became such a merchant's square nowadays.
Where do you think they got the name "Radion" from? One of the best selling halide bulbs of all times is called "Radium". Since the beginning they are focusing in that type of comparison to try to substitute the most valued source of light available in the hobby to their LED product.

Those halides and tubes weren't designed to be used so far from the water surface. Those halide fixtures, if used by the manufacture, didn't have a true 250W output, cause their ballasts will use less wattage too. They used Phoenix 14K 250W with it. They used ATI bulbs too. Any T5 user that knows ATI bulbs/fixtures will tell you that those LEDs will never be better in any situation, when the ATI is properly used!!! Unfair comparison to say the least and to be very polite here. It works "ok" for that PDF application and for the sake of selling those LEDs.

Oh, and I certainly don't want to forget to show the only valuable thing out of that PDF... the dog! So cute!