No love for MH?

[chefjpaul]

What I think?

Those halides and tubes weren't designed to be used so far from the water surface.

Even in a 12" deep tank.....?

I can see that regarding an average home reef tank or a public aquarium where its deep.

 

[A. grandis]

Even in a 12" deep tank.....?

I can see that regarding an average home reef tank or a public aquarium where its deep.

No, of course not! Not that high above! Specially for the T5s.
That will work ok with the LEDs and actually will help them to blend spectrum.
To use halides that high you should use other type of reflectors too, like the public aquariums have, and with higher wattage. We could have a Lumen Bright over those tanks and still had to have a decent wattage to cover and grow the corals accordingly.
In a home aquarium application, for example, we use a Spectra for an 18" deep tank with 2 X 250W, using an eballast. Some people had 400W bulbs over 20" deep tanks back in the day! I think that's kinda too much, but can be done. Unnecessary IMO. Those fixtures were placed about 12" from the surface. Most reflectors for home tanks are designed to work at that distance.
The ATI sunpower can be used between 2" to 10" max. from the surface over an 18" deep tank, for example, with SPS, LPS, softies or freshwater planted!!! That's how they perform the best!!

 

[honkit]

Please continue to do your search and find out. Dr. Sanjay isn't the only one who noticed those things and more about the subject.
Or try for yourself, like others did.

I asked for an objective link to back up what you posted and you go ask me to search. Unless I see factual evidence, I take what you posted with a truckload of salt.

 

[A. grandis]

I asked for an objective link to back up what you posted and you go ask me to search. Unless I see factual evidence, I take what you posted with a truckload of salt.

That's totally fine with me. Do whatever you like.
Trust whoever you want to trust.
This is just a hobby.

 

[oreo54]

That's totally fine with me. Do whatever you like.
Trust whoever you want to trust.
This is just a hobby.

I posted a paper awhile back showing both LEP and LED do produce slightly thinner coral in the 2 species studied.

Besides shipping for sale or clumsy hands I see no practical reason it matters. Growth and health weren't
affected. So....what's the point?

 

[A. grandis]

Preferences...
In nature most corals aren't normally as thin, like under LEDs.
Their structure under halides/T5s are similar to those found in the natural habitat. The way they grow under halides and the colors they can produce/keep are more like the wild colonies. That is also true for most species of zoanthids and anemones (structure/colors).
Just preference...
It's all about how you want it to look in YOUR system.
And that's the point to all of us. We all have different preferences and goals.
My goal is to maintain the organisms to their optimum health following the nature as a guide.
I appreciate those who keep their hard corals looking just like they look in the ocean. Light is a big part of that equation IMO.
Some people see nature as their guide.
Others see their local fish store as their guide, and the majority of the stores nowadays have more LEDs than halides/T5s.

 

[DogsRule]

I posted a paper awhile back showing both LEP and LED do produce slightly thinner coral in the 2 species studied.

Besides shipping for sale or clumsy hands I see no practical reason it matters. Growth and health weren't
affected. So....what's the point?

If the coral in the study is thinner, then surely it shows that growth IS being affected. Seems like a bit of a contradiction, if I'm not misreading it.

 

[TheGreatWave]

What I think?
>Another nice white and clean "Apple like" PDF to grab newbies by the hook and people who never had halides and/or tubes over their systems to know better, trying to proof at all costs that halides and tubes aren't as good as their LEDs. And they are not kidding!
> A great way to make yourself comfortable and confident after buying their products.
> Another reason for people like me and others to come here and tell the truth.
> Just a "nice try"!
Coral lab = EcoTech Marine.
All those guys are probably watching us here. Their sponsored persons and companies are probably also coming here to watch us and report in their meetings. It's a nice web of companies IMO. Business is business. They have an aggressive market strategy. They are just doing their jobs and very well in that sense. I appreciate their efforts, but they should play nicer!!! Too bad the hobby became such a merchant's square nowadays.
Where do you think they got the name "Radion" from? One of the best selling halide bulbs of all times is called "Radium". Since the beginning they are focusing in that type of comparison to try to substitute the most valued source of light available in the hobby to their LED product.

Those halides and tubes weren't designed to be used so far from the water surface. Those halide fixtures, if used by the manufacture, didn't have a true 250W output, cause their ballasts will use less wattage too. They used Phoenix 14K 250W with it. They used ATI bulbs too. Any T5 user that knows ATI bulbs/fixtures will tell you that those LEDs will never be better in any situation, when the ATI is properly used!!! Unfair comparison to say the least and to be very polite here. It works "ok" for that PDF application and for the sake of selling those LEDs.

Oh, and I certainly don't want to forget to show the only valuable thing out of that PDF... the dog! So cute!

I heard these threads get heated, but you really are delusional.

Almost as bad as the guy who attacked me for using LED without evening knowing what kind of lights I used, just started rambling off about "colonies and do you even". Wild lol.

It seems you are just here to argue and beat your chest, you aren't interested in conversation. You are a very toxic person.

You seem to be good at walking the fine line of being a rude, yet not get banned.

I will say to the owners of R2R and their advertisers, people are hesitant to participate in this forum because of the resident grouches. i doubt the forum was intended for the same 3-4 people to attack everyone who comes in here.

 

[oreo54]

If the coral in the study is thinner, then surely it shows that growth IS being affected. Seems like a bit of a contradiction, if I'm not misreading it.

No contradiction.. It's a morphological difference.
Same w/ terrestrial plants. you can grow very healthy thin stemmed plants indoors (light differences, little wind).
Just can't hit them w/ tornadic winds..

Outside wind and spectrum "harden" the stems (thicker)..
Point is it isn't "health" just form..
Now where it would matter is if you are trying to repopulate nature..

 

[Shep]

Preferences...
In nature most corals aren't normally as thin, like under LEDs.
Their structure under halides/T5s are similar to those found in the natural habitat. The way they grow under halides and the colors they can produce/keep are more like the wild colonies. That is also true for most species of zoanthids and anemones (structure/colors).
Just preference...
It's all about how you want it to look in YOUR system.
And that's the point to all of us. We all have different preferences and goals.
My goal is to maintain the organisms to their optimum health following the nature as a guide.
I appreciate those who keep their hard corals looking just like they look in the ocean. Light is a big part of that equation IMO.
Some people see nature as their guide.
Others see their local fish store as their guide, and the majority of the stores nowadays have more LEDs than halides/T5s.

But LEDs can and do grow beautiful and healthy corals, your opinion doesn't change that fact. I get that they aren't your preference but that doesn't make them any less viable. Can you post some evidence that the corals physically grow differently under LEDs and that they are not healthy? Why don't you post a picture of your corals and we can compare them to LED grown corals?

 

[chema]

Thinner or bulkier branches in corals are more related to water flow than to light origin.

 

[oreo54]

Thinner or bulkier branches in corals are more related to water flow than to light origin.

Relatively right...

Just one study, 3 lights, 2 corals..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4149485/

The morphology of scleractinian corals can be influenced by numerous factors in their natural environment [5], [13]. Intraspecific morphological variations among scleractinian corals have been associated with genetic variability [14], [15], competition for space [16], [17], concentration of nutrients in the water [18], [19], and with the influence of a range of environmental factors, such as light [20]–[22], depth and pressure [20], water movement [23], [24] and sedimentation rates [21], [24], [25]. Nonetheless, due to potential interactions between these factors, it is difficult to identify in situ the relative influence of each one of them.

 

[A. grandis]

I heard these threads get heated, but you really are delusional.

Almost as bad as the guy who attacked me for using LED without evening knowing what kind of lights I used, just started rambling off about "colonies and do you even". Wild lol.

It seems you are just here to argue and beat your chest, you aren't interested in conversation. You are a very toxic person.

You seem to be good at walking the fine line of being a rude, yet not get banned.

I will say to the owners of R2R and their advertisers, people are hesitant to participate in this forum because of the resident grouches. i doubt the forum was intended for the same 3-4 people to attack everyone who comes in here.

You are just trying to take attention from the facts posted here and play the guilty game ignoring all what people are posting.
Your sentimental words aren't part of the reality in this thread.

 

[A. grandis]

But LEDs can and do grow beautiful and healthy corals, your opinion doesn't change that fact. I get that they aren't your preference but that doesn't make them any less viable. Can you post some evidence that the corals physically grow differently under LEDs and that they are not healthy? Why don't you post a picture of your corals and we can compare them to LED grown corals?

Please define "healthy".
A biologist will tell you that an organism from the wild is healthy when it at least can grow and reproduce like they do in nature.
The fact that one can keep it alive doesn't mean that organism is in optimal health.
You see... if you read the past posts you will find that I have to keep repeating this because people think what they want and they don't try to understand the words posted.

 

[A. grandis]

Thinner or bulkier branches in corals are more related to water flow than to light origin.

Try to have a "strong flow" in a tank with LEDs and do the same under halides.
You will be able to use less flow under halides and still get more compact thicker branches of corals.
Paletta has been defending his LEDs a lot lately. He has his own tastes, I guess, but here he tells you how halides are good.
@11:49

 

[Shep]

Please define "healthy".
A biologist will tell you that an organism from the wild is healthy when it at least can grow and reproduce like they do in nature.
The fact that one can keep it alive doesn't mean that organism is in optimal health.
You see... if you read the past posts you will find that I have to keep repeating this because people think what they want and they don't try to understand the words posted.

...yet you offer no proof that they aren't healthy. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again but never offer proof. You can repeat it all you want but it doesn't make it true. If you can't or won't offer real proof that LED grown corals are sickly, then I'd suggest you just move on from your crusade lol

 

[A. grandis]

...yet you offer no proof that they aren't healthy. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again but never offer proof. You can repeat it all you want but it doesn't make it true. If you can't or won't offer real proof that LED grown corals are sickly, then I'd suggest you just move on from your crusade lol

Another excuse to get away from facts.
Do me a favor: go try halides and prove me wrong.

 

[CNDReef]

...yet you offer no proof that they aren't healthy. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again but never offer proof. You can repeat it all you want but it doesn't make it true. If you can't or won't offer real proof that LED grown corals are sickly, then I'd suggest you just move on from your crusade lol

Here’s where things get really tricky, this isn’t a stab at you personally shep
where’s the proof that they are healthy under LEDs? I love halides but can say I’ve seen beautiful tanks that are all LEDs but I couldn’t replicate them with LEDs. Halides just seam to offer something that is lacking in LEDs “to me”.
The proof is in the eye of the beholder

 

[Shep]

Here’s where things get really tricky, this isn’t a stab at you personally shep
where’s the proof that they are healthy under LEDs? I love halides but can say I’ve seen beautiful tanks that are all LEDs but I couldn’t replicate them with LEDs. Halides just seam to offer something that is lacking in LEDs “to me”.
The proof is in the eye of the beholder

So to me, the proof is that they grow well, maintain good coloration and have longevity under LEDs. Im not saying that one is better than the other but claiming that one is, requires some level proof beyond opinion. Now, saying you prefer one/the look of corals under one is completely fine. I actually prefer the way my tank looked under T5s but got tired of the bulb changes/other aspects and went with LEDs when I moved.

 

[MTBake]

This is a hobby level forum. It's based mostly on opinions and personal experience. Nobody needs to prove anything, imho.

There's better things to do than bicker over aquarium lighting.

That said, I'm going to clean my light fixtures. Both metal halide relfectors, the 2 Kessil 360we and my t5 retrofit all need a good cleaning