No love for MH?

[acropora4u]

What jda said completely. You don't hear as much from the M/H crowd as they are quite often being told that LEDs are the way. But that's fine. I switched over to 14k HQI Phoenix metal halides and completely love them.

same for me- bye bye ecotech radions, the MH kicked your rear with immediate growth on my sps

 

[shred5]

Anyway I came to make a few comments on led lighting. Some know I work for a company that specifies and designs lighting for commercial, industrial, retail, etc buildings.

The led lighting has a pretty big problem right now and is causing some lighting companies to go out of business or be sold. It was bound to happen anyway there was too many. I had mentioned in this thread or another. Light companies selling people on the fact that these fixtures that are supposed to last 10+ years and save money didn't happen.


Even though a led may last 10+ years the Led drivers are failing way to soon. Allot of the manufactures even if the fixtures were not made in China still used Chinese drivers. Chinese electronic components are garbage, this has caused allot of issues. First maintenance costs are way up on fixtures. Replacing a driver is not just like replacing a bulb. It is so bad in some cases the light manufactures have been called in and the reputable ones have been replacing the drivers. In some cases the led boards or whole fixtures too because the technology is moving so fast the drivers wont work with what is in place. We sometimes have thousands of lights on a job. This can cause plant area shutdowns while this is done and can cost the company money.

We also just found out that leds drivers do not handle transient voltage or spikes at all, so now we have to put surge protection devices on our services or lighting panels so that the drivers do not get killed. More cost to the owner.

All these drivers being replaced is costing maintenance dept more money. Buying a drives is not like buying a bulb. Yes occasionally a ballast goes and needs to be replaced but those are easy to find.

Another issue is the tech is moving and changing so fast. We specify a fixture and by the time the job is being built the fixture is not even around anymore.

Also replacing a fixture is more than a bulb.

Also turns out leds do shift spectrum some and the light output degrades over time but we knew this along time ago.

The price of a led fixture is higher than a t-5 or halide fixture.

The big issue with leds is vertical illumination for us too which is the same problem we have in this hobby that causes shading. Even though it is not as bad because they we have work better reflectors and lenses than in the hobby.. places like warehouses are hard to light because it is harder to get those faces lit.

All I am saying is led lighting has turned out to cost way more and causes issues. Companies were trying to put out so many fixtures so fast the quality wasn't there. It will improve but it has put a bad taste in people mouths about led lighting.

 

[JoeD_]

The details on your first gripe have been exhausted to the fact that they’re not universal. Would you really call a black box great technology, or reliable, or having the same spectral width and control as an option costing literally 8-10x as much? I wouldn’t. The fact that you can get a new mh or t5 setup with bulbs for 1/3-1/2 the cost of an “industry standard” style controllable led panel makes the money argument dubious at best.

Heating is a silly argument too. I use 2x$8 clip on fans to keep my tank under 80 degrees. I know people who use all radion pros who run a chiller. Every case is different. Metal halides aren’t universally synonymous with constant light shut offs, overheating, chiller use, and scalded arms. That talk is perpetuated by people who have zero experience with them.

I don’t think anyone is arguing whether leds are here to stay. That much is obvious. I can’t recall a single post or thread from the past several years that would indicate the led industry is a fad and will be gone soon. Even die hard mh users will all agree as a product mainstay, they’re not going anywhere.

Fair points. Im just saying, I think the new technology is why people have no love for MH anymore.

 

[JoeD_]

Anyway I came to make a few comments on led lighting. Some know I work for a company that specifies and designs lighting for commercial, industrial, retail, etc buildings.

The led lighting has a pretty big problem right now and is causing some lighting companies to go out of business or be sold. It was bound to happen anyway there was too many. I had mentioned in this thread or another. Light companies selling people on the fact that these fixtures that are supposed to last 10+ years and save money didn't happen.


Even though a led may last 10+ years the Led drivers are failing way to soon. Allot of the manufactures even if the fixtures were not made in China still used Chinese drivers. Chinese electronic components are garbage, this has caused allot of issues. First maintenance costs are way up on fixtures. Replacing a driver is not just like replacing a bulb. It is so bad in some cases the light manufactures have been called in and the reputable ones have been replacing the drivers. In some cases the led boards or whole fixtures too because the technology is moving so fast the drivers wont work with what is in place. We sometimes have thousands of lights on a job. This can cause plant area shutdowns while this is done and can cost the company money.

We also just found out that leds drivers do not handle transient voltage or spikes at all, so now we have to put surge protection devices on our services or lighting panels so that the drivers do not get killed. More cost to the owner.

All these drivers being replaced is costing maintenance dept more money. Buying a drives is not like buying a bulb. Yes occasionally a ballast goes and needs to be replaced but those are easy to find.

Another issue is the tech is moving and changing so fast. We specify a fixture and by the time the job is being built the fixture is not even around anymore.

Also replacing a fixture is more than a bulb.

Also turns out leds do shift spectrum some and the light output degrades over time but we knew this along time ago.

The price of a led fixture is higher than a t-5 or halide fixture.

The big issue with leds is vertical illumination for us too which is the same problem we have in this hobby that causes shading. Even though it is not as bad because they we have work better reflectors and lenses than in the hobby.. places like warehouses are hard to light because it is harder to get those faces lit.

All I am saying is led lighting has turned out to cost way more and causes issues. Companies were trying to put out so many fixtures so fast the quality wasn't there. It will improve but it has put a bad taste in people mouths about led lighting.

New technology will always have issues. In a few years, they will be even better with way less issues. And hopefully cheaper.

 

[Bpb]

Fair points. Im just saying, I think the new technology is why people have no love for MH anymore.

Fair enough. Like I’ve said I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’ve inadvertently converted a handful of friends without even trying, but I’m not selling anything. People can love whatever they love. In my experience with all 3 forms of light in their pure forms (not hybrid), I have enjoyed dramatically faster growth using MH than any of the three. I don’t care about technology. I have zero interest in gadgetry. Results alone are all I care about. My 3 mh pendants and ballasts are top shelf and were all basically free. I’m presently using only 2 of them, and bulbs cost under $100 a year. They work better than other options I’ve tried and are cheaper to maintain.

I preferred the color rendering under t5ho I will admit, but the bulb cost was double the price, energy consumption roughly the same, and par was a touch low for my application. Growth was slower.

For pure leds I never tried radions, or Orphek, or even AI. The cost of entry to reach the same coverage level and par blanket is prohibitively high. I will never pay that much for light panels. I used black boxes and was unable to find a setting that was workable. Probably user error but I hated the aesthetic, and killed several long kept corals in the experimenting process. Won’t go back. Not worth it.

The cost of bulbs and electricity is a completely moot point. I can buy a pack of bulbs weekly if I felt so inclined through coral sales.

 

[JoeD_]

Fair enough. Like I’ve said I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’ve inadvertently converted a handful of friends without even trying, but I’m not selling anything. People can love whatever they love. In my experience with all 3 forms of light in their pure forms (not hybrid), I have enjoyed dramatically faster growth using MH than any of the three. I don’t care about technology. I have zero interest in gadgetry. Results alone are all I care about. My 3 mh pendants and ballasts are top shelf and were all basically free. I’m presently using only 2 of them, and bulbs cost under $100 a year. They work better than other options I’ve tried and are cheaper to maintain.

I preferred the color rendering under t5ho I will admit, but the bulb cost was double the price, energy consumption roughly the same, and par was a touch low for my application. Growth was slower.

For pure leds I never tried radions, or Orphek, or even AI. The cost of entry to reach the same coverage level and par blanket is prohibitively high. I will never pay that much for light panels. I used black boxes and was unable to find a setting that was workable. Probably user error but I hated the aesthetic, and killed several long kept corals in the experimenting process. Won’t go back. Not worth it.

The cost of bulbs and electricity is a completely moot point. I can buy a pack of bulbs weekly if I felt so inclined through coral sales.

Yeah ultimately the hobby is about fun and whatever you enjoy. I agree the LEDs are definitely a bit expensive and they definitely have their faults. I personally think they make the tank look the best and colors pop the best. I enjoy them. I won't knock anyone else for using any other type of light. I don't know why reefers are legit fighting online about lights...

 

[shred5]

I want to add is I have used all types of lighting in this hobby and run several different types right now.
Personally I like to run at this point in time led with t-5 to help with shading.
Leds only tanks seem fine for my anemones and softies and may even be better in some cases for softies.

For SPS halides have always been the best. I like to run them with a little blue supplementation for pop. Growth has not been a issue with Led for most sps for me but the colors have been. I prefer true color and some Fluorescence and not just fluorescence which allot of led users like.. I do have issue with some sps under led and their health. Some sps loose color under led while a few seem to retain color.

I have not run halides for a while mainly because of power required but I am thinking of putting my 120 on halides again. I lived in a apartment and circuits were limited.
I was thinking with my next system in the basement running 4 frag tanks with different lighting hooked up to the same sump with same flow and see the difference.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

Just so your small tank doesn’t feel alone
Don’t mind the dirty glass ;Bookworm

Another small tank with halides. A ten gallon with 150w phenix 14k

 

[shred5]

New technology will always have issues. In a few years, they will be even better with way less issues. And hopefully cheaper.

I want to add this I do not think leds will ever do as good of lighting job or provide as good of light in most cases than fluorescent or halides.. Leds are very good at putting light where it needs to be and very good at task lighting or spot lighting and nothing beats leds in those applications.


The advantages to leds like energy efficiency and being able to dim may out weight the advantages of other lighting but the actually lighting will not be as good. It will get better and close the gap. It is the way leds produce light and the small point source that is very hard to over come.

 

[oreo54]

It is the way leds produce light and the small point source that is very hard to over come.

Not really. Can be easily done now.. at a cost of output..
It's economics not physics..

Btw: How do you think you get shimmer out of a MH?

the 'point sources' of MH bulbs are the inner bulbs - much larger than the LED dies. Plus the better reflector you have, the wider that point source appears.

Needs a picture. Just a bigger point.. de are even a bit more pointy..

 

[shred5]

Not really. Can be easily done now.. at a cost of output..
It's economics not physics..

Btw: How do you think you get shimmer out of a MH?


Needs a picture. Just a bigger point.. de are even a bit more pointy..

Come on it is not nearly as point source as led. Not only that led only throws light in one direction, it can not throw light behind it at the circuit board. Arc tube throws light in all directions.

It is what gives leds their efficiency, they waste very little light. Halides bounce light all over and waste light that is bounced back at the bulb and it is what makes them inefficient. That light bounced all around is what gives a nice even light and lots of spread to halides.

It is physics though, I agree.

Edit.
With halides you can use reflectors and to some aspects a lens to distribute the light. With led it is mainly a lens unless indirect which we see very little of but is becoming more popular. As you go indirect you loose efficiency.

 

[biecacka]

My 240 cube lit by 2 Hamilton technology 250 watt bulbs!


Corey

 

[oreo54]

Come on it is not nearly as point source as led. Not only that led only throws light in one direction, it can not throw light behind it at the circuit board. Arc tube throws light in all directions.

It is what gives leds their efficiency, they waste little light. Halides bounce light all over and waste light that is bounced back at the bulb and it is what makes them inefficient. That light bounced all around is what gives a nice even light and lots of spread to halides.

right it physically mixes up a small source of light..
Put to LED COBS back to back and you get a similar physical arrangement of light 360 degrees..
Raw chips w/ out lenses radiate about 150 degrees or so..

Point was the inefficiency of a narrow "clump" of photons (MH "core") was mitigated by physics..and
spread out...
yes a bigger clump than LEd's ..

Again what causes MH shimmer?
Actually I'd like a better answer
What is the shimmer effect people talk about with halide?

Your Metal Halide Questions Answered

For those of you that are new to reefing and the list of lighting options out there, I wanted to post a thread about Metal Halide since thats probably the most talked about lighting option out there. Im not trying to play this thread off as me being some kind of Metal Halide guru, but I do see qu...

www.nano-reef.com

Metal Halide is "Source Point" lighting meaning that the source of light is coming from a single point as opposed to light spread over a large area like fluorescents produce. You can get an example of the shimmer effect by holding a flashlight over your tank pointing at the sand. You will need some surface agitation from a powerhead or pump to get the best effect. The shimmer effect adds a more natural appearance to your tank and is similar to what youd actually see if you were in the ocean looking at corals.

than what I think..


SORRY again it boils down to what IS and what COULD BE..

 

[shred5]

right it physically mixes up a small source of light..
Put to LED COBS back to back and you get a similar physical arrangement of light 360 degrees..
Raw chips w/ out lenses radiate about 150 degrees or so..

Point was the inefficiency of a narrow "clump" of photons (MH "core") was mitigated by physics..and
spread out...
yes a bigger clump than LEd's ..

Again what causes MH shimmer?
Actually I'd like a better answer
What is the shimmer effect people talk about with halide?

Your Metal Halide Questions Answered

For those of you that are new to reefing and the list of lighting options out there, I wanted to post a thread about Metal Halide since thats probably the most talked about lighting option out there. Im not trying to play this thread off as me being some kind of Metal Halide guru, but I do see qu...

www.nano-reef.com

than what I think..


SORRY again it boils down to what IS and what COULD BE..

What could be would take away any advantage led has in efficiency and might make it less efficient.

Halides are a point source but nothing like led.

By the way the pictures prove my point, no light directed behind and only lens, no reflectors.

But I am done with the debate, believe what you want. this will just keep going in a circle.

 

[hart24601]

Since it was specifically asked if anyone has put up t5 with LED and didn't like it, yes I did, and I didn't like it. Too much light bleed and the fixture made the tank look terrible. As for growth and color of coral? I adjusted the power level so it was a more apples to apple comparison (aka dropped the LED intensity) and saw no difference in growth gauged by alk consumption or color however I didn’t like the T5 colors. I have two friends right now that are taking down their T5 as well for LED only.





I am surprised the thread is still going and looks like the other MH vs LED with people getting so worked up you would think a lighting type personally violated them. I flat out have never liked MH, and I don’t think it’s any better than LED or t5, although I used it years ago, and I don’t think any lighting type really matters that much if you get the intensity you want and the color you enjoy. Clearly some disagree, that’s just fine. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything, we all want to justify what we own.

 

[Bpb]

I rather like how heated this debate gets.

 

[ReeferReefer]

I rather like how heated this debate gets.

Almost as heated as a closed canopy with MH in it [emoji6]

 

[Waynerock]

Almost as heated as a closed canopy with MH in it [emoji6]

I c what chu did there[emoji15]

 

[A. grandis]

Come on it is not nearly as point source as led. Not only that led only throws light in one direction, it can not throw light behind it at the circuit board. Arc tube throws light in all directions.

It is what gives leds their efficiency, they waste very little light. Halides bounce light all over and waste light that is bounced back at the bulb and it is what makes them inefficient. That light bounced all around is what gives a nice even light and lots of spread to halides.

It is physics though, I agree.

Edit.
With halides you can use reflectors and to some aspects a lens to distribute the light. With led it is mainly a lens unless indirect which we see very little of but is becoming more popular. As you go indirect you loose efficiency.

 

[shred5]

?? Why did you post this to me?

I have seen this video a while back. I know Tullio pretty well. I met him when he first started dating Joy..
I have had many conversations with him. He knows lighting very well and plays the guitar very well too.
I have known joy since she ran harbor aquatics out of the green house in her back yard. She later went to work for PFO lighting when the business became to much for her several years after her husband Gary died at Macna.
Tulllio is the guy I see eye to eye most with when it comes to lighting..

I actually met Dana for the first time at a talk Tullio was giving at Imac along time ago. I didn't know I was even talking with Dana until later. Never met him face to face till then but I knew Dana through fishnet many many years earlier. Other than online I do not know Dana to well, I just have met him a few times at conferences and was able to talk with him for a bit. He knows more than anyone about how light affects coral.

All are very nice people and very knowledgeable.

When Joy worked for PFO lighting she sold the Solaris which was one of the first led fixtures in the hobby. I was one of the first to see it. I also got to see one of Tullios first led fixtures. I can not remember who Tullio worked for then, might have been IceCap? Dana, do you remember?