No love for MH?

[oreo54]

"What is the perfect light source".. "There isn't one"...

 

[MnFish1]

I want to add this I do not think leds will ever do as good of lighting job or provide as good of light in most cases than fluorescent or halides.. Leds are very good at putting light where it needs to be and very good at task lighting or spot lighting and nothing beats leds in those applications.


The advantages to leds like energy efficiency and being able to dim may out weight the advantages of other lighting but the actually lighting will not be as good. It will get better and close the gap. It is the way leds produce light and the small point source that is very hard to over come.

I kind of agree with this - in my tank though I use that to advantage - I do not want a tank (though they are beautiful in many ways) that is just a forest of SPS of different colors. I want some LPS, some soft corals etc - so - by having some areas even high up on the rock work that are not as bright - I can have that variation. I find that SPS grow quite well under the highly lit areas under my LED - as well as they did under MH - BUT as you say - there are darker areas (that are still pretty bright) - that the SPS do not grow as much 'into'. If you get what I mean

 

[shred5]

"What is the perfect light source".. "There isn't one"...

I have not watched that video but just because there is not a perfect artificial light does not mean one can not be better than another for certain things we grow.

Each different lights we use for the reef hobby has their advantages and disadvantages.. Just because I feel Halides are better for sps doesn't mean they are for everything. I do not even use halides right now. It also does not mean for some led advantages are more suited for them over halides. People have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each light. It also does not mean that one light isn't better for a specific coral either. Heck not all meta halide is created equal either.

The main problem with the hobby is we try to keep things together that would never grow together in the wild or even in the same zone.

 

[oreo54]

Err kind of the whole point of...

"What is the perfect light source".. "There isn't one"...

Can't even say Halides are best for SPS w/out saying WHICH one's or groups...
Or which zooth clade or which color form..or..or..or..


Same applies to LED's..

certainly a bigger database from Halides.. being the old school stuff..
And if it isn't broke don't fix it applies a lot..

"SPS" will "change" from 6500k MH's to "20000" Mh's to some degree..
I'd expect changes from MH to LED as well.. common sense..

What one prefers is exactly that.. what you prefer..

Actually I sort of got dragged to this thread from here...

Coral Coloration LEDS vs MH vs T5

You guys please keep debating here. I am enjoying all the information being presented! Agreed this is awesome. Been following along. More and more I am getting the impression that hybrid is the way to go (BRS basically said as much in the latest video as well).

www.reef2reef.com

Sorry I did...
for fun see post #8 from the above

can you not see how relatively easy it is to match the Radium??
Throw a cyan, lime,pc amber in there along w/ some 410-420nM violets..

Darn MH's bouncing spikes everywhere.. not very sun like..

can't win all

14K Phoenix washing out tank - Reef Central Online Community

14K Phoenix washing out tank Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment

www.reefcentral.com

 

[A. grandis]

?? Why did you post this to me?

I have seen this video a while back. I know Tullio pretty well. I met him when he first started dating Joy..
I have had many conversations with him. He knows lighting very well and plays the guitar very well too.
I have known joy since she ran harbor aquatics out of the green house in her back yard. She later went to work for PFO lighting when the business became to much for her several years after her husband Gary died at Macna.
Tulllio is the guy I see eye to eye most with when it comes to lighting..

I actually met Dana for the first time at a talk Tullio was giving at Imac along time ago. I didn't know I was even talking with Dana until later. Never met him face to face till then but I knew Dana through fishnet many many years earlier. Other than online I do not know Dana to well, I just have met him a few times at conferences and was able to talk with him for a bit. He knows more than anyone about how light affects coral.

All are very nice people and very knowledgeable.

When Joy worked for PFO lighting she sold the Solaris which was one of the first led fixtures in the hobby. I was one of the first to see it. I also got to see one of Tullios first led fixtures. I can not remember who Tullio worked for then, might have been IceCap? Dana, do you remember?

I've talked to Tullio many times too.
The reason why I posted to you is just to help you out explaining your debate cause in that video he points out the differences. That's all.

 

[A. grandis]

"What is the perfect light source".. "There isn't one"...

Perfect would be the sun.
Non of the artificial lights we use ARE the sun.
That's the only thing.
Call Tullio directly and he will tell you what he think is the very BEST artificial light available over any reef tank.

After so many people tested and seen the differences with their own eyes... Unbelievable how people still fight for this defending their LEDs.
There are differences between them.
Use the one you like.
Halides will give you the best results in terms of growth and colors!

 

[A. grandis]

That's OK if you LED boys and girls love your tank as they are! Oh man...
The bad thing, and I believe the beginning of this harsh environment with discussions that never end, was when companies started to compare their LEDs with halides trying to show they LEDs are better to sell, using halides side by side, the best available source of light for reefs, as a step. That is a lie! See, the LED companies started saying LEDs are better than halides, not the reefers/consumers. They are different light sources and will NEVER give you the SAME results!!!!!
Even T5s will NEVER give you what you can achieve with halides. PERIOD!
There is no hate. There is no "better than other".
It's a matter of taste. Once more...
If you want to have your corals surviving with dead spots under them, weaker skeletons, and colored by the blue diodes (thinking those are natural pigments) and think they are "growing just fine" that is your reality. That is fine with all of us. Really! I mean it, I think we all know better. That is your tank! Some people have more LEDs over their tanks and that will diminish a bit those symptoms listed above. Spend thousands of dollars that way with Phillips or Lani LEDs and you can try get close to a T5 system, like the ones in Europe. Make your own fixture with the VERY BEST LEDS you can get!! Not going to be like the halides NEVER because they are DIFFERENT and no LED will provide what halides are able to. NEVER! Period! I'm sorry, but that's not hard to understand.
Facts are facts.
If you don't believe me you try out and come back here.
Or do you think all the people who were LED lovers before and came to apologize to me saying "I should have listen to you earlier" are lying?
Do you think all those guys in this forum, including corals growers, that went try halides over the so called "best LEDs" they had and published they can't believe the difference and halides are much better are lying too? Man, results are what we all want. You choose your "results".
If you really need the techonology to play wifi, thunder, blue fluorescence, purple psych, etc... forget halides. But if you want to impress your girlfriend, grandma and the kids get halides. They will tell you the truth. ;Drool

Ps: and I won't reply to those out of the context quotes. Sorry.

 

[honkit]

That's totally fine with me. Do whatever you like.
Trust whoever you want to trust.
This is just a hobby.

It is a hobby but I will still call out unsubstantiated claims like leds cause weaker sps skeletons.

 

[MnFish1]

That's OK if you LED boys and girls love your tank as they are! Oh man...
The bad thing, and I believe the beginning of this harsh environment with discussions that never end, was when companies started to compare their LEDs with halides trying to show they LEDs are better to sell, using halides side by side, the best available source of light for reefs, as a step. That is a lie! See, the LED companies started saying LEDs are better than halides, not the reefers/consumers. They are different light sources and will NEVER give you the SAME results!!!!!
Even T5s will NEVER give you what you can achieve with halides. PERIOD!
There is no hate. There is no "better than other".
It's a matter of taste. Once more...
If you want to have your corals surviving with dead spots under them, weaker skeletons, and colored by the blue diodes (thinking those are natural pigments) and think they are "growing just fine" that is your reality. That is fine with all of us. Really! I mean it, I think we all know better. That is your tank! Some people have more LEDs over their tanks and that will diminish a bit those symptoms listed above. Spend thousands of dollars that way with Phillips or Lani LEDs and you can try get close to a T5 system, like the ones in Europe. Make your own fixture with the VERY BEST LEDS you can get!! Not going to be like the halides NEVER because they are DIFFERENT and no LED will provide what halides are able to. NEVER! Period! I'm sorry, but that's not hard to understand.
Facts are facts.
If you don't believe me you try out and come back here.
Or do you think all the people who were LED lovers before and came to apologize to me saying "I should have listen to you earlier" are lying?
Do you think all those guys in this forum, including corals growers, that went try halides over the so called "best LEDs" they had and published they can't believe the difference and halides are much better are lying too? Man, results are what we all want. You choose your "results".
If you really need the techonology to play wifi, thunder, blue fluorescence, purple psych, etc... forget halides. But if you want to impress your girlfriend, grandma and the kids get halides. They will tell you the truth. ;Drool

Ps: and I won't reply to those out of the context quotes. Sorry.

I have a problem here you contradict yourself in a couple places. You say there is no better than another it’s a matter of taste. Later on you say all these people coral growers etc tried halides and say they are much better and you ask are they lying. Well who cares what they think if it’s a matter of taste. ?

 

[hart24601]

I have a problem here you contradict yourself in a couple places. You say there is no better than another it’s a matter of taste. Later on you say all these people coral growers etc tried halides and say they are much better and you ask are they lying. Well who cares what they think if it’s a matter of taste. ?

Oh goodness don't get him started...

 

[honkit]

I have a problem here you contradict yourself in a couple places. You say there is no better than another it’s a matter of taste. Later on you say all these people coral growers etc tried halides and say they are much better and you ask are they lying. Well who cares what they think if it’s a matter of taste. ?

It seems to me that certain halide loving posters are a little over exuberant in crusading for their favourite lighting which I find highly amusing. To me, water chemistry has been the single largest factor in determining coral keeping success for my tanks.

 

[A. grandis]

It is a hobby but I will still call out unsubstantiated claims like leds cause weaker sps skeletons.

Under LEDs, in my observation and after talking to many people with experience, they won't produce stronger skeletons like under halides or under the sun.
That is an observation. I wouldn't call opinion or a claim.
Please read past posts and you will find more.
Another thing, taking advantage of this posts, is the tremendous ability of natural pigment production, besides pigments from elements. Halides will certainly be the king of pigment formation. It's just facts. Observation by many.

 

[A. grandis]

Oh goodness don't get him started...

Please ignore me. LOL!

 

[A. grandis]

I have a problem here you contradict yourself in a couple places. You say there is no better than another it’s a matter of taste. Later on you say all these people coral growers etc tried halides and say they are much better and you ask are they lying. Well who cares what they think if it’s a matter of taste. ?

Ok, I'll explain.
The facts won't change. But people will like different results.
The differences of results are there. It's inevitable.
Some choose the related "flexibility" LEDs offer over the results halides offer.
That's one of the ways one can look at it.
Some people just love the blue LEDs can provide over ANY other qualities achieved with halides, like Mike Paletta today, for example.
Bottom line is: if someone actually prefer their corals to look like what they look like under LEDs, who am I to tell them to get halides? But the fact is that the differences are there.
It's a matter of respecting what others want. I believe we all should be friends.
I have many friends that have LEDs and look at a halide system and say" there is nothing like halides", or "I really miss my halides", but they won't remove their LEDs from over their systems yet for any personal reason. We are still friends. But they see the differences. Each and everyone of them see the differences (if they know and seen both). When they ask me "why my corals aren't doing this or that..." and I answer could be the LEDs they kinda now and they just say "oh well, yeah, but...". We don't fight.
Some people careless of results too. Some don't want to "mess up" a "balanced system" and don't want to change. Some others have n time to thinks about a change now...

 

[MnFish1]

Under LEDs, in my observation and after talking to many people with experience, they won't produce stronger skeletons like under halides or under the sun.
That is an observation. I wouldn't call opinion or a claim.
Please read past posts and you will find more.
Another thing, taking advantage of this posts, is the tremendous ability of natural pigment production, besides pigments from elements. Halides will certainly be the king of pigment formation. It's just facts. Observation by many.

Its actually an opinion and a claim - based on an observation. Here is another observation - the vast majority of people who have read the poll and taken it are not - and are not planning to use MH lighting. Why do you think this is? Not a rhetorical question - I'm just wondering if you can step outside your opinion - and try to think about why others don't agree?

 

[honkit]

Under LEDs, in my observation and after talking to many people with experience, they won't produce stronger skeletons like under halides or under the sun.
That is an observation. I wouldn't call opinion or a claim.
Please read past posts and you will find more.
Another thing, taking advantage of this posts, is the tremendous ability of natural pigment production, besides pigments from elements. Halides will certainly be the king of pigment formation. It's just facts. Observation by many.

Hence it’s your observation and NOT a fact. Don’t confuse the two.

 

[Bpb]

Its actually an opinion and a claim - based on an observation. Here is another observation - the vast majority of people who have read the poll and taken it are not - and are not planning to use MH lighting. Why do you think this is? Not a rhetorical question - I'm just wondering if you can step outside your opinion - and try to think about why others don't agree?

Not real scientific here. But I would assert that if 10 people responded “not planning on using mh lighting” I would estimate

8: because it’s “dated tech” and not aesthetically pleasing or low profile enough, the “they’re too hot and bulb changes are SUCH a hassle” rhetoric is strong with these ones as well

1: used them previously and just flat out like the aesthetic of other options more, willing to sacrifice the subtle differences in growth and structure (if there even are any at a high enough level) for the specific color rendering of t5 or led

1: people that respect them as a viable option, but just didn’t start with them and are satisfied enough with what they presently use. More passive hobbyists.

 

[chefjpaul]

Hence it’s your observation and NOT a fact. Don’t confuse the two.

We should talk Dana into an experiment involving structure, color, growth differences relating to this.

Get a GoFundMe & donations. One system, two light sources.

 

[MnFish1]

Not real scientific here. But I would assert that if 10 people responded “not planning on using mh lighting” I would estimate

8: because it’s “dated tech” and not aesthetically pleasing or low profile enough, the “they’re too hot and bulb changes are SUCH a hassle” rhetoric is strong with these ones as well

1: used them previously and just flat out like the aesthetic of other options more, willing to sacrifice the subtle differences in growth and structure (if there even are any at a high enough level) for the specific color rendering of t5 or led

1: people that respect them as a viable option, but just didn’t start with them and are satisfied enough with what they presently use. More passive hobbyists.

I was just trying to bring the thread back to the OP - rather than this back and forth about what is better. The fact is - whether MH is better or not - people aren't flocking to it. I think that is a more interesting discussion.

 

[Bpb]

I was just trying to bring the thread back to the OP - rather than this back and forth about what is better. The fact is - whether MH is better or not - people aren't flocking to it. I think that is a more interesting discussion.

Fair enough. That’s just my assessment of it. I don’t expect a big upswing in metal halide users to the point it begins being marketed by the major retailers again as a must have product or that the old timers will suddenly reactivate their old RC accounts and start posting again. I think there will just continue to be a handful of people who continue using them because they are happier with how they perform, and eventually most new hobbyists will be unaware of what a metal halide lamp even is