No nitrates and high ammonia - cycled tank

Crustaceon · Apr 3, 2023

MnFish1 said:
I'm not sure the question you're exactly asking about ammonia? Can you rephrase it?

My question is, if it's possible to get a "false positive" confirmation of "sufficient" (not completed) cycling due to a momentary depletion of ammonia caused by bacteria running out of that building block before sufficiently colonizing a tank to the point where it's possible to safely keep livestock without seeing a deadly ammonia spike. (Breathes) Basically, in less technical terms. I wonder if a reefer adds a tiny bit of ammonia to a new tank, tests ammonia levels a few days later and observes a zero reading on their test kit, is their tank actually cycled enough to add a bunch of fish without getting a second ammonia spike and bacterial bloom? There seems to be a greater focus on just seeing ammonia appear and disappear rather than considering if the bacterial population only got a slight boost via the ammonia and while it could process waste from A newly added clownfish, how do we know the bacteria population is robust enough to be able to process waste from five or six fish being added at the same time? In a nutshell, how do we know we're adding enough ammonia to trigger that initial cycle and how do we know the resulting bacterial propagation through our tank's walls, substrate and rocks is sufficient?

brandon429 · Apr 3, 2023

only someone not using seneye would ever find that happening. I don't own seneye, I don't sell for them, I collate data uploaded by them and reference it in cycle debate threads--that's why the mention. it's a solid form of measurement that 100 different owners will find reporting very consistently across tanks. if we sample data from API ammonia owners, we get .25-8 ppm across readings on fully cycled tanks, I have the threads. wide disparity in readouts vs tight readouts/low disparity: how we measure ammonia changes the way we think about bacteria in water I've found.

reefers focus on bacteria to the exclusion of surface area. if someone has a set of rocks, plenty of area stewing for 10 days in any common arrangement, they can house fish due to that activation/amplification of ability afforded by the surface area even if the veneer of bacteria is rather new and not completely dense yet.

we would have to be using completely dead bacteria + a high initial ammonia loading (which is why in my cycle threads we never ever dose reefs to 2 ppm) and you'd have to have very sparse live rock/surface area which reefers usually don't have a problem with

we all tend to copy high surface area setups + inoculation constants + timeframes which is why large data sets from seneye owners all show ammonia control with no stalls and it's why searches for fish-in cycles or cycling any way you want to approach it shows plainly living fish. Of course any errors in disease or acclimation will always be blamed on ammonia (not by seneye owners) but you can see the trending in searches ran. how we cycle works, cycles don't stall.

MnFish1 · Apr 3, 2023

Crustaceon said:
My question is, if it's possible to get a "false positive" confirmation of "sufficient" (not completed) cycling due to a momentary depletion of ammonia caused by bacteria running out of that building block before sufficiently colonizing a tank to the point where it's possible to safely keep livestock without seeing a deadly ammonia spike. (Breathes) Basically, in less technical terms. I wonder if a reefer adds a tiny bit of ammonia to a new tank, tests ammonia levels a few days later and observes a zero reading on their test kit, is their tank actually cycled enough to add a bunch of fish without getting a second ammonia spike and bacterial bloom? There seems to be a greater focus on just seeing ammonia appear and disappear rather than considering if the bacterial population only got a slight boost via the ammonia and while it could process waste from A newly added clownfish, how do we know the bacteria population is robust enough to be able to process waste from five or six fish being added at the same time? In a nutshell, how do we know we're adding enough ammonia to trigger that initial cycle and how do we know the resulting bacterial propagation through our tank's walls, substrate and rocks is sufficient?

Yes. Its possible. Take this example. Put a single clownfish into a 20 gallon tank - with nothing except water and a filter (without bacteria). Depending on how much you feed you may never see an ammonia 'spike'. Same example - add bottled bacteria - you may never see any ammonia spike.

Part of the issue 'what is the definition of cycled' - there are 30 of them. Is it when one clownfish can live in a tank - is it when 10 fish can live in a tank. Is it when a tank can process x ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Is it when nitrite is 0, ammonia is 0 and nitrate is rising? etc etc.

So - to answer your question - how do you know how much ammonia to add - if you are using Dr. Tim's method - it's when the tank can process x ppm in 24 hours, its "safe" to add a bio load of fish according to their directions. If you are adding fish with bottled bacteria - the thought is go slowly - and watch total ammonia. Ie. Do not add 5-6 fish at once

.

Having said that - I have never 'cycled' a tank for weeks - measuring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Since it has been available - I have merely added fish and bacteria on day 1 - If I have a lot of fish - I may add a little more bacteria than the recommended amount. So - also in answer to your question - part of it is experience.

I believe @Lasse also has a protocol of adding fish slowly. I know he also focuses on nitrite measures as well - whereas others do not.

PS - I do not like the comment 'cycled' as one definition. I did an experiment (which is in the experiment section) - whereby live rock that had been in a sump/tank for years (so should be well colonized) could not process 2 ppm ammonia on week 0 (within 24 hours) However as ammonia was added sequentially, within a period of time - the same amount of rock could easily process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Suggesting (in part) - that as fish (ammonia) is added, there is a lag time in which the bacteria needs to 'catch up'. The good news is, when you add fish (as compared to ammonia directly) - you are not reaching 2 ppm quickly.

Hope this helps - sorry so long

Crustaceon · Apr 3, 2023

MnFish1 said:
Yes. Its possible. Take this example. Put a single clownfish into a 20 gallon tank - with nothing except water and a filter (without bacteria). Depending on how much you feed you may never see an ammonia 'spike'. Same example - add bottled bacteria - you may never see any ammonia spike.

Part of the issue 'what is the definition of cycled' - there are 30 of them. Is it when one clownfish can live in a tank - is it when 10 fish can live in a tank. Is it when a tank can process x ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Is it when nitrite is 0, ammonia is 0 and nitrate is rising? etc etc.

So - to answer your question - how do you know how much ammonia to add - if you are using Dr. Tim's method - it's when the tank can process x ppm in 24 hours, its "safe" to add a bio load of fish according to their directions. If you are adding fish with bottled bacteria - the thought is go slowly - and watch total ammonia. Ie. Do not add 5-6 fish at once.

Having said that - I have never 'cycled' a tank for weeks - measuring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Since it has been available - I have merely added fish and bacteria on day 1 - If I have a lot of fish - I may add a little more bacteria than the recommended amount. So - also in answer to your question - part of it is experience.

I believe @Lasse also has a protocol of adding fish slowly. I know he also focuses on nitrite measures as well - whereas others do not.

PS - I do not like the comment 'cycled' as one definition. I did an experiment (which is in the experiment section) - whereby live rock that had been in a sump/tank for years (so should be well colonized) could not process 2 ppm ammonia on week 0 (within 24 hours) However as ammonia was added sequentially, within a period of time - the same amount of rock could easily process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Suggesting (in part) - that as fish (ammonia) is added, there is a lag time in which the bacteria needs to 'catch up'. The good news is, when you add fish (as compared to ammonia directly) - you are not reaching 2 ppm quickly.

Hope this helps - sorry so long

I think this is the key right here:

MnFish1 said:
a bio load of fish according to their directions

When we cycle a new tank, we really need to consider what/how much livestock will be added to the tank after the cycle and when. I'm not sure there's a good way to gauge that because ammonia production is kind of an "after the fact" issue and you ideally don't want ammonia spiking after adding 15 anthias to a brand new tank that's actually only ready for a few hermit crabs.