No3 Po4 why is this a primary focus?

[twilliard]

I am writing this in hopes to bring out some information that many just overlook.
We use the word "nutrients" to focus primarily on No3 and Po4. Why??
Algae and bacteria. Is this not the 2 most common complaints in today's reef world (excluding fish related issues)?
I would like to bring up and inform people that we are missing something so important to the balance of our tanks.
Carbon
The carbon content of the water is just as important as feeding corals.
This is called DOC's ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolved_organic_carbon )
Now these two have a close relationship when understood well.

So what can we share about this?

 

[nervousmonkey]

First, everything in the world is made up of carbon backbones, with a few exceptions, proteins being one good one, however, in order to grow, everything in the natural world uses carbon to grow. That's what occurs to me anyway. There are good carbon structures and bad ones though, so having a high DOC content in one's tank is not necessarily a good thing. That's what skimmers are taking out, at least one of the types of chemical structures.
BTW, super cool to see you back in college Todd! What's the major? Congrats man.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

No3 Po4 why is this a primary focus?
Because we can test for them.

 

[twilliard]

Now I did mention they have a direct relationship

No3 Po4 why is this a primary focus?
Because we can test for them.

 

[twilliard]

First, everything in the world is made up of carbon backbones, with a few exceptions, proteins being one good one, however, in order to grow, everything in the natural world uses carbon to grow. That's what occurs to me anyway. There are good carbon structures and bad ones though, so having a high DOC content in one's tank is not necessarily a good thing. That's what skimmers are taking out, at least one of the types of chemical.
BTW, super cool to see you back in college Todd! What's the major? Congrats man.

Hey thanks!
It was a long road to get to where I am. I am majoring in I.T. as unfortunately I was not able to peruse a degree in biology I will continue my work in biology here at my lab.

 

[nervousmonkey]

yeah, IT pays more. my undergrad was in biology, no jobs that pay. It's more fun to do biology at your house anyway.

 

[.AcroKiller.]

So if nutrients are already extremely low would you still want to add a carbon source

 

[nervousmonkey]

That depends on what you are trying to achieve. I like running carbon as it increases bacterial populations, but if you corals are having a hard time growing, no, it wouldn't make sense to deprive them further. In that case, I would just spot feed and continue what is already being done..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not sure I understand the point of the question.

For a photosynthetic coral, what do you believe is the critical significance of organic carbon?

They get their carbon primarily from CO2/bicarbonate/carbonate, just as plants do.

 

[Scott.h]

I am writing this in hopes to bring out some information that many just overlook.
We use the word "nutrients" to focus primarily on No3 and Po4. Why??
Algae and bacteria. Is this not the 2 most common complaints in today's reef world (excluding fish related issues)?
I would like to bring up and inform people that we are missing something so important to the balance of our tanks.
Carbon
The carbon content of the water is just as important as feeding corals.
This is called DOC's ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolved_organic_carbon )
Now these two have a close relationship when understood well.

So what can we share about this?

Do you think adding no3/po4 directly is as beneficial as letting nutrients break down and complete the nitrogen cycle on their own? Do you think there is something lacking by adding directly without going through the breakdown process?

 

[brandon429]

biology didn't pay me anything but it allowed me to handle a bunch of samples likely infected with e coli or crutzfeld Jacobs disease which kept me up at night in bio fear, for very low pay. I kept thinking "dude go shower all those prions off yourself or 40 is going to stink"

 

[Nano sapiens]

I have read a number of articles (Rohwer, et. al.) that show that exposing coral to excess DOC is detrimental. High DOC encourages excessive microbial activity in and on the coral, and this excessive microbial load then causes localized oxygen depletion...which can lead to suffocation/death.

Ken Feldman had a number of interesting articles looking into corals and DOC levels on the Advanced Aquarist wesite. Interesting take-away for me was that filtered tanks using carbon and skimming often had sustantially lower DOC concentrations than natural pristine reef water and unfiltered ones could have much higher than natural concentrations:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

I think the reason that DOC is not more 'on the radar' is that it is not feasible to test for by the average reef aquarist. Also, based on Ken's findings, filtered and unfiltered tanks can both be successful even with a wide variation of DOC concentrations. Personally, I believe that long term success lies in the avoidance of any rapid changes in the DOC concentration that the system (coral) is acclimated to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do you think adding no3/po4 directly is as beneficial as letting nutrients break down and complete the nitrogen cycle on their own? Do you think there is something lacking by adding directly without going through the breakdown process?

I can't imagine the source can make a difference, if, in fact, it is breaking down to nitrate and phosphate. How would it know where it came from?

 

[Scott.h]

I can't imagine the source can make a difference, if, in fact, it is breaking down to nitrate and phosphate. How would it know where it came from?

Good point. I just feel like even though parameters are spot on, stable, adding no2 and po4 to 2/.016, something is off. I feel there isn't enough organtics in the water. Something I (or triton) can't test for. A few lps are pinching a tad and I think I need to be less OCD about cleaning and siphoning junk out.