NOT PATIENT

[cmcoker]

Sorry WetWhistle - I disagree.

The reason I suggested the stock I did is that those can survive for quite a while in very low nutrient water - ultil the feedings of fish and their resultant waste provide sufficient nutrients for them to thrive.

Its actually better not to wait, By delaying the introduction of desirable livestock - meaning corals, nems and clams, into the system all your doing is opening the door to algaes and other organisms that you don't want.

Many of the problems new tanks face are the result of the build-up of unconsumed and unbalanced nutrients. Corals, Nems and clams prevent this. People forget that their corals are, or should be a major component of denitrification and nutrient sequestration. There is nothing to be gained by allowing algae and cyano to occupy these nutrient niches before coral.

Small clams have nutrient requirements which require an established tank - large clams are fine - provided you introduce fish with them. Small nems will grow to take up excess nutrients - same with fleshy LPS - place these in the detritus drop points of the system.

Snails - trocus - should go in as well - I would stay away from all crabs in a new system -

The only testing I would recommend at this point is ammonia, salinity and temperature - and an occasional nitrate test - as your nitrate goes up - add more corals.

A too clean of system is more forgiving to mistakes than a dirty one, and a stocked system will be more resistant to those early nuisance colonizers than an empty one.

I know I'm going against conventional wisdom with this advice...I seriously doubt many here have ever tried the approach I have recommended. But I assure you - it works and it is actually faster and easier to get the results you want following this approach.

I see what you are saying, but don't understand why you would advise to keep adding corals, based on nitrates, and not to test for alkalinity...
I mean large clams can soak it up, and you haven't questioned water change routine or anything to replace the alk, so wouldn't a bottoming out alk cause coral death and still lead to the algae problems you describe?
If you are using coral to absorb nitrate, but aren't providing alk/Ca levels to sustain the coral, what's the point?

 

[robert]

Actually - my experience is that you'll have more losses if you wait.

Now I don't suggest you go out and buy mature colonies to immediately stock your system - but rather many small frags of the stuff you ultimately want to keep. Thats the fun of it anyway - taking something small and getting it to grow...

I don't recommend chasing alk/mag and calcium at this point as water changes will keep you in line - after you see substantial growth you can spot check - but again water changes should take you through the first six months with ease - you can test periodically if you want or are worried. After you've spiked your nitrate up to about 50 and water change it back down to the 5-10 range ( do the math - thats a lot of water change over a couple of months) - you start with the sps - at this point you track levels - no need to before this point.

My current system - 400+ g was set up this way and I lost 1 coral - a monti chip - which didn't die - it fell off its mount and I literally lost it.
At eight months - I'm exporting nems as I build in my SPS - my zoas and LPS are staring to become real colonies and they will be joining the export side of the equation before long.

 

[WetWhistle]

I get what you are trying to say Robbert and your mind set and approach. I am just saying it should be done by experienced people.

The problem in stocking your system to early by someone with experience is completely different then by someone that has none. Someone that has experience knows what to look out for and how far to take it. Someone that doesn't have experience has no idea. They can't tell the difference between a leather coral shedding the waxy skin to get rid of algae or if a proper problem like to high a PH is going on and that the leather is warning them of an underlining issue.

In a new system that has a lot of livestock added to early things go from very low nutrients to very high very quickly and things can go wrong fast. Within a day or so your nutrients can double into high levels. Over stocking a tank before it is ready is one of the major causes of algae blooms in these new systems. It is when people dump in livestock to early or to quickly that leads to outbreaks not taking your time. The input into the tank is greater then the export at this stage. Not to mention the algae that grow in the early stages as the tank cycles release chemicals that play havoc on corals as well.

Things are not even chemically stable in the early months. People that are new have no idea what can or can't handle this. The added respiration and waste from the new bio load play havoc on the PH levels causing major swings. Creating an even more unstable system in something that is not even chemically stable yet. People with experience know what inverts, corals and fish can handle this chemically unstable period. That is the point of a proper cycle of the tank, to build the necessary bacteria, food web and let things chemically stabilize.

When was the last time anyone heard someone say "man I shouldn't have taken my time in stocking the tank and waited the proper cycle time because now I have a huge algae problem"? Never that is when!!
Consider this. How many times have you seen someone that has an under stocked tank have algae issues vs if they have an overstocked one? An overstocked tank almost always wins. Plus if you have no corals it is easy to stop an algae problem. Shut the lights off for a week or so. Lets see people try that with a tank full of corals.

I have been in this hobby since 95 and I have tried all sorts of ways over the years for setup of a reef tank, including fully stocking a tank right away. Experience taught me slow and steady is one of the best ways to approach this hobby. Even for experienced people. Especially new people this should apply to. Slow down and take your time and enjoy your tank as it grows and matures. No need to rush.

 

[robert]

We've derailed this poor guys thread...so I'm going to drop it here...if someone wants to open another thread...I'll participate and explain why WetWhistle's go slow approach is incorrect - especially for the beginner...

In closing...here's something to look at...

 

[WetWhistle]

No offense Robert but telling a new person to the hobby it is OK to keep sps and clams in a newly setup tank that is 2 months old (that are the persons first corals) and not going slow and taking their time to research is just plain bad advice. If your point was for the first corals for people to carefully select easy to keep corals like soft corals or mushrooms that actually use large enough quantities of dissolved organics as a primary food source to have a large enough impact on water quality that actually does something, unlike small frags of SPS and a small clam it would have been a different story. But you advocate SPS and clams as examples of first corals to keep in a new setup with someone that has no experience?!? The two most sensitive corals and invert you can possibly add to your tank that are even worst in a new setup. People that have experience with SPS and clams have issues with them in a fully aged system let alone a brand new setup with someone that has no experience.

With that being said I agree to drop the topic on this thread and as well would be happy to discus on other thread.

For people that want advice gained by experience to help minimize livestock loss. Going slow is NOT a bad thing in this hobby for anyone especially for a beginner. It gives people time to properly research topics and gain husbandry experience through doing. Not by doing a quick google search where the majority of the information and advice is wrong or taken out of context by people that don't have a complete understanding of a concept. Being impenitent and jumping in head first approach like suggested is the worst thing someone can do in this hobby. It makes new people rush and not think things through before they act or add something. It fosters impulse buys for livestock. That is just plain bad husbandry practice in my opinion. Advice like that against going slow and responsible will end up killing someones tank due to quickly overstocking of a system if they listen to it.

For those that have questions on what you should actually keep and proper timeline for first corals in a new tank PM me. I will be happy to pass on my experience that I have gained over the years. Always remember to think things through before you take peoples advice on forums. As a hobbyist it is your utmost responsibility for the well being of your livestock as your top priority. You should take all the necessary steps to minimize the loss of what you plan to keep. Rushing is counter productive and goes against the well being of your livestock.

 

[reefwiser]

Actually - my experience is that you'll have more losses if you wait.

Now I don't suggest you go out and buy mature colonies to immediately stock your system - but rather many small frags of the stuff you ultimately want to keep. Thats the fun of it anyway - taking something small and getting it to grow...

I don't recommend chasing alk/mag and calcium at this point as water changes will keep you in line - after you see substantial growth you can spot check - but again water changes should take you through the first six months with ease - you can test periodically if you want or are worried. After you've spiked your nitrate up to about 50 and water change it back down to the 5-10 range ( do the math - thats a lot of water change over a couple of months) - you start with the sps - at this point you track levels - no need to before this point.

My current system - 400+ g was set up this way and I lost 1 coral - a monti chip - which didn't die - it fell off its mount and I literally lost it.
At eight months - I'm exporting nems as I build in my SPS - my zoas and LPS are staring to become real colonies and they will be joining the export side of the equation before long.

Dude this is crazy talk water changes will keep up with alk changes. I have had and alk drop of from 8 dkh to 5 dkh over night after adding a few new SPS. Water changes can never keep up with SPS I have been keeping SPS since 1993. We have learned quite a lot over the years and one is water changes do not keep up with SPS.

 

[WesF]

Adding corals and clams early will not prevent algae and cyano problems.

 

[robert]

You like to argue by misstating what people say - and then take exception to it - Strawman much?

I suggested BTA nems, Fleshy LPS and a LARGER clam - I then suggested a course of how to get to the point of adding SPS - which is what the OP asked for.

You disagree - fine. But you should actually read what is written and state your disagreements with what was actually suggested.
Contrary to your reply - I specifically excluded small clams and sps to start and I suggested building in consumers and producers simultaneously. The nems as they grow would constitute a nutrient sponge - and would do so without affecting chemistry - None of the balancing corals, fleshy LPS - clam included - need to be fed. You could substitute mushrooms if you wanted - but these like it dirty - and a new tank is not usually the best for them. Your cite pH spikes and leather corals for example - how when using the approach I suggested, is it even possible to get a pH spike?

My approach requred mastery of the thermometer, hydrometer, ammonia test and the abilty to do a water change nothing more.
I suggested twice daily checking and using seachem prime and water changes if trouble arose. Simple - and yes the most inexperienced reefer will have more success with this approach.

 

[WesF]

Anemones are not a nutrient sponge. They increase bioload and expel waste.

 

[twilliard]

Hey everyone here has valid points.
Not all people can afford the best of the best in equipment to all of a sudden stock a 2 month old tank.
So equipment has to be considered when it comes to stocking a tank.
For the OP I personally would not stock it with something like acros at 2 months. Just too easy to throw off chemistry.

 

[reefwiser]

Would never suggest a BTA or clam to any new hobbyist. They are far too delicate animals Don't know where to nutrient sponge and anemone idea came from. Can you cite a paper that says that anemones up take nutrients?

 

[robert]

Would never suggest a BTA or clam to any new hobbyist. They are far too delicate animals Don't know where to nutrient sponge and anemone idea came from. Can you cite a paper that says that anemones up take nutrients?

The anemone harbours symbiotic algae (called zooxanthellae) that produces food through photosynthesis. The food produced is shared with the anemone, which in turn provides the algae with shelter and minerals. Just like a coral - but without the demands of calcium and alkalinity....

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
Marine Organisms That Use Nitrate
A wide variety of organisms are capable of absorbing nitrate with which they synthesize a host of nitrogen-containing organic molecules, such as proteins and DNA.1 Nitrate is primarily used by microorganisms (such as bacteria) and those organisms that get much or all of their energy from photosynthesis, including algae, corals and sea anemones.

BTAs in a proper environment can grow 100x by volume in sixmonths....you want pictures?

 

[robert]

Anemones are not a nutrient sponge. They increase bioload and expel waste.

See my response above -

 

[robert]

Adding corals and clams early will not prevent algae and cyano problems.

They compete for the same food sources and physical space - sure they do...

 

[WesF]

No they really don't.

 

[twilliard]

Lets keep this on track

 

[WesF]

See my response above -

The waste they produce far exceeds tiny amount of nitrate they may use.

Anemones cannot live on photosynthesis alone. They have to be fed meaty foods, which increases bioload.

 

[cmcoker]

I find it interesting that the article you linked to, does not suggest adding more coral or anemones as a way to reduce nitrates. Why do you think that is?
Since the whole article is about nitrates and how to reduce them in aquaria?

 

[twilliard]

Here is the original OP question

My tank is 2 months old. When can I start adding sps corals

 

[reefwiser]

That says nothing about up take of nutrients like a sponge would. This is article is talking about Nitrate and this is only under starvation conditions. . Dude I do not need pictures I have had Anemones in my systems for 25 years. They just don't up take phosphate or any nutrients to live unless they are starving