NP-Bacto_Balance

[Edgar F]

quick update

I switch to bacto balance to 1ml a day for one week

my parameters changed like this

No3 from 8.7 to 11.6
phosphates .06 to .14

for now i be switching back to Elimi NP

I think this is normal because im adding more nutrients with bacto balance currently with my GHA i should probably stay on Elimi NP until my phosphates are down for period of time, then switching to balance.

does this sound correct?

 

[Lou Ekus]

quick update

I switch to bacto balance to 1ml a day for one week

my parameters changed like this

No3 from 8.7 to 11.6
phosphates .06 to .14

for now i be switching back to Elimi NP

I think this is normal because im adding more nutrients with bacto balance currently with my GHA i should probably stay on Elimi NP until my phosphates are down for period of time, then switching to balance.

does this sound correct?

Yes, Edgar, you are correct. I would go back to the ELIMI NP and see how you do. If your PO4 gets below 0.04, then go back to the BALANCE. Let me know how you make out.

 

[Edgar F]

Yes, Edgar, you are correct. I would go back to the ELIMI NP and see how you do. If your PO4 gets below 0.04, then go back to the BALANCE. Let me know how you make out.

thanks Lou

will keep updating on results but so far so good

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

thanks Lou

will keep updating on results but so far so good

hows the update?

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Yes, Edgar, you are correct. I would go back to the ELIMI NP and see how you do. If your PO4 gets below 0.04, then go back to the BALANCE. Let me know how you make out.

i see you have given allot of advice on the subject already, i have a question on bacto-balance i just picked up the large size.
i have a 150g system that i am currently dosing n03 and p04 every day to maintain .02phospahtes and 5.2 nitrates and where its been hovering, but i would like to try your product to eliminate dosing 2 liquids down to one plus the added benefits of carbon dosing.
i am ordering your elimi np and the plus np in case it swings up or down for correction, do i have that right?

will i need to dose and test i saw on one reply you said something about phosphates to not show on a reading ? is this the case? i need to stay in that tight range should i only have to dose your balance from now on? how do i know its where i need it to be (p04 .02 n03 5.0) to use one of your other products in order to raise or lower?

should i continue my N03 &p04 supplements with balance or just stop them abruptly, and start your product just after last dose of my current solution?

 

[Lou Ekus]

i see you have given allot of advice on the subject already, i have a question on bacto-balance i just picked up the large size.
i have a 150g system that i am currently dosing n03 and p04 every day to maintain .02phospahtes and 5.2 nitrates and where its been hovering, but i would like to try your product to eliminate dosing 2 liquids down to one plus the added benefits of carbon dosing.
i am ordering your elimi np and the plus np in case it swings up or down for correction, do i have that right?

will i need to dose and test i saw on one reply you said something about phosphates to not show on a reading ? is this the case? i need to stay in that tight range should i only have to dose your balance from now on? how do i know its where i need it to be (p04 .02 n03 5.0) to use one of your other products in order to raise or lower?

should i continue my N03 &p04 supplements with balance or just stop them abruptly, and start your product just after last dose of my current solution?

Hi Edgar,

WOW! That's a ;lot of questions...let me try to answer them the best I can for the moment:
1) i am ordering your elimi np and the plus np in case it swings up or down for correction, do i have that right? Yes, that is exactly correct.
2) will i need to dose and test i saw on one reply you said something about phosphates to not show on a reading ? is this the case? Testing is important whenever you are using additives. It is true, however, that sometimes it is difficult to see the PO4 concentration going up as quickly as you would like. This is where it is important to look at your corals. If you are using the NP BACTO Balance or the Plus NP, your corals are getting the additional PO$ and NO# that they need. You will see them looking better, even though you don't see those parameters increasing right away. Eventually you will see the increase and test it.
3) i need to stay in that tight range should i only have to dose your balance from now on? This is always dependent on the individual system. That is why we make the range of products. So if your values go up or down, out of that range, you can change products and correct it. Then you go back to the NP BACTO Balance.
4) how do i know its where i need it to be (p04 .02 n03 5.0) to use one of your other products in order to raise or lower? Testing is the only way. But in the very beginning of using the products, the observed health of the corals is also a very important indicator of things moving in the right direction.
5) should i continue my N03 &p04 supplements with balance or just stop them abruptly, and start your product just after last dose of my current solution? This is really up to you. You know your corals best and you will see how they respond to whatever changes you make. I always opt for slower changes, no matter what that change is. So I would decrease some and increase new ones slowly. Then when you see how things are responding, adjust appropriately.

I hope this is helpful. If you have more questions you can always email me also at [email protected]. Good luck.

 

[ctopherl]

Hi Edgar,

WOW! That's a ;lot of questions...let me try to answer them the best I can for the moment:
1) i am ordering your elimi np and the plus np in case it swings up or down for correction, do i have that right? Yes, that is exactly correct.
2) will i need to dose and test i saw on one reply you said something about phosphates to not show on a reading ? is this the case? Testing is important whenever you are using additives. It is true, however, that sometimes it is difficult to see the PO4 concentration going up as quickly as you would like. This is where it is important to look at your corals. If you are using the NP BACTO Balance or the Plus NP, your corals are getting the additional PO$ and NO# that they need. You will see them looking better, even though you don't see those parameters increasing right away. Eventually you will see the increase and test it.
3) i need to stay in that tight range should i only have to dose your balance from now on? This is always dependent on the individual system. That is why we make the range of products. So if your values go up or down, out of that range, you can change products and correct it. Then you go back to the NP BACTO Balance.
4) how do i know its where i need it to be (p04 .02 n03 5.0) to use one of your other products in order to raise or lower? Testing is the only way. But in the very beginning of using the products, the observed health of the corals is also a very important indicator of things moving in the right direction.
5) should i continue my N03 &p04 supplements with balance or just stop them abruptly, and start your product just after last dose of my current solution? This is really up to you. You know your corals best and you will see how they respond to whatever changes you make. I always opt for slower changes, no matter what that change is. So I would decrease some and increase new ones slowly. Then when you see how things are responding, adjust appropriately.

I hope this is helpful. If you have more questions you can always email me also at [email protected]. Good luck.

I would like to try bacto balance but do not plan on having a skimmer at this point. My main filtration will be a Red Sea roller mat. Is that sufficient?

 

[Lou Ekus]

I would like to try bacto balance but do not plan on having a skimmer at this point. My main filtration will be a Red Sea roller mat. Is that sufficient?

Roller mats work great. Sometimes even a little too great. What I mean by that is that a roller mat with the NP BACTO Balance is fine, just keep an eye on your nutrient levels. In some cases the roller mats are SO efficient in removing particulates, that they do a better job than is needed in relation to nutrient content. In those cases the system becomes almost "too clean" and, no matter how hard your try, you can't seem to get the nutrient levels up to where you would like them. Don't get me wrong, I am not against rollers. In fact, I think they are great. This is just something I have seen more than a hand full of times, and it's worth mentioning as a situation to be aware of a watching for.

 

[ctopherl]

Roller mats work great. Sometimes even a little too great. What I mean by that is that a roller mat with the NP BACTO Balance is fine, just keep an eye on your nutrient levels. In some cases the roller mats are SO efficient in removing particulates, that they do a better job than is needed in relation to nutrient content. In those cases the system becomes almost "too clean" and, no matter how hard your try, you can't seem to get the nutrient levels up to where you would like them. Don't get me wrong, I am not against rollers. In fact, I think they are great. This is just something I have seen more than a hand full of times, and it's worth mentioning as a situation to be aware of a watching for.

Thank you, I will keep an eye on this! I can always slow down the rolling and let a bit of the “gunk” dissolve in the water raising P/N, I assume.

Another question - your guidance makes sense with regards to goal phosphate levels and which product to use based on desired outcomes for corals. What about a fish only tank, where the primary goal becomes fish health and secondary goal is to eliminate pests? How does that change recommended phosphate levels and TM products?

I have a new tank set up and am going to slowly add fish over time-I don’t anticipate adding corals until early 2023 so I care less about phosphate now, but would like to avoid any ugly stages if possible.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thank you, I will keep an eye on this! I can always slow down the rolling and let a bit of the “gunk” dissolve in the water raising P/N, I assume.

Another question - your guidance makes sense with regards to goal phosphate levels and which product to use based on desired outcomes for corals. What about a fish only tank, where the primary goal becomes fish health and secondary goal is to eliminate pests? How does that change recommended phosphate levels and TM products?

I have a new tank set up and am going to slowly add fish over time-I don’t anticipate adding corals until early 2023 so I care less about phosphate now, but would like to avoid any ugly stages if possible.

For me, personally, I would make the distinction between a strict "fish only" system and a system starting as fish only with plans to transition to a coral system in the future. It is just my opinion, but I would treat them both very differently.

In the fish only system, the PO4 and NO3 concentrations won't really matter that much in the long run. In fact, unlike a reef system, probably the lower you keep them, the less annoyance algae and bacterial growth you will see.

On the other hand, it takes so long, and so much fine tuning to eventually get a reef system running consistently in the range required, that I would start out by aiming for those values from the beginning. That way, by the time I am ready to start adding corals, I have those nutrient values dialed in. Also, I would try getting corals in sooner rather than later, if I wanted the system to ultimately be a reef system. I just don't see the advantage of having it run as a fish only, then converting it over. The addition of the corals, especially if you start with some easy LPS, will help stabilize things earlier in the process. But this is just my opinion. I'm VERY sure that others on here will differ in their approach. Good luck with it and let me know if we can help any further.

 

[ctopherl]

For me, personally, I would make the distinction between a strict "fish only" system and a system starting as fish only with plans to transition to a coral system in the future. It is just my opinion, but I would treat them both very differently.

In the fish only system, the PO4 and NO3 concentrations won't really matter that much in the long run. In fact, unlike a reef system, probably the lower you keep them, the less annoyance algae and bacterial growth you will see.

On the other hand, it takes so long, and so much fine tuning to eventually get a reef system running consistently in the range required, that I would start out by aiming for those values from the beginning. That way, by the time I am ready to start adding corals, I have those nutrient values dialed in. Also, I would try getting corals in sooner rather than later, if I wanted the system to ultimately be a reef system. I just don't see the advantage of having it run as a fish only, then converting it over. The addition of the corals, especially if you start with some easy LPS, will help stabilize things earlier in the process. But this is just my opinion. I'm VERY sure that others on here will differ in their approach. Good luck with it and let me know if we can help any further.

Thank you! For informational purposes, it is because I cannot bring myself to try and manage 2 QT tanks at once (fish QT and a separate coral QT), not to mention keeping them 10+ feet away from each other at all times and avoiding cross contamination.

Makes sense overall though, thank you!

 

[ctopherl]

For me, personally, I would make the distinction between a strict "fish only" system and a system starting as fish only with plans to transition to a coral system in the future. It is just my opinion, but I would treat them both very differently.

In the fish only system, the PO4 and NO3 concentrations won't really matter that much in the long run. In fact, unlike a reef system, probably the lower you keep them, the less annoyance algae and bacterial growth you will see.

On the other hand, it takes so long, and so much fine tuning to eventually get a reef system running consistently in the range required, that I would start out by aiming for those values from the beginning. That way, by the time I am ready to start adding corals, I have those nutrient values dialed in. Also, I would try getting corals in sooner rather than later, if I wanted the system to ultimately be a reef system. I just don't see the advantage of having it run as a fish only, then converting it over. The addition of the corals, especially if you start with some easy LPS, will help stabilize things earlier in the process. But this is just my opinion. I'm VERY sure that others on here will differ in their approach. Good luck with it and let me know if we can help any further.

Hi Lou! Checking in here.

I have my brand new tank up and running. The nitrogen cycle is complete and I have 2 fish happily living in the tank, no other livestock currently.

The tank is 225g total water (including sump). My nitrates got to about 20-25ppm and phosphates about .06 (measured with Hanna ULR) so I started dosing NP bacto balance at 1ml/day (about half recommended “max” for this size tank).

It has been a week so far. Nitrates are still in the 20-25ppm range but phosphates are coming down to about .05. I noticed the water getting cloudy so I skipped yesterday, and then dosed .5ml today.

Note that I have no other filtration on the tank at the moment other than the coarse filter sponge Red Sea provides (I’ll be adding the roller mat soon).

Am I dosing correctly? Should I be able to maintain .05ml and then slowly ramp up to 1ml if I find phosphates are increasing? Any other suggestions on combatting water cloudiness?

Also, why are nitrates seemingly unchanged? Should I expect those to go down with phosphates?

Thanks!

 

[Lou Ekus]

Hi Lou! Checking in here.

I have my brand new tank up and running. The nitrogen cycle is complete and I have 2 fish happily living in the tank, no other livestock currently.

The tank is 225g total water (including sump). My nitrates got to about 20-25ppm and phosphates about .06 (measured with Hanna ULR) so I started dosing NP bacto balance at 1ml/day (about half recommended “max” for this size tank).

It has been a week so far. Nitrates are still in the 20-25ppm range but phosphates are coming down to about .05. I noticed the water getting cloudy so I skipped yesterday, and then dosed .5ml today.

Note that I have no other filtration on the tank at the moment other than the coarse filter sponge Red Sea provides (I’ll be adding the roller mat soon).

Am I dosing correctly? Should I be able to maintain .05ml and then slowly ramp up to 1ml if I find phosphates are increasing? Any other suggestions on combatting water cloudiness?

Also, why are nitrates seemingly unchanged? Should I expect those to go down with phosphates?

Thanks!

It is very hard to say about the cloudiness and the PO4 levels. With the tank so new, and having so little a biological load in it, there will be lots and lots of variables. I think anything I would say, would be mere conjecture. My best suggestion is to keep an eye on things, and when you get more biological load going, you will be much more able to get things to be more "controllable". It is just too hard to "read" the tank, or make any assumptions about much, when things are this new and so few animals. I wish I had a better answer for you. It sounds like you are on the right track with the NP BACTO Balance. But that is apply today, in my opinion. In a tank system like this, you might easily find that tomorrow will be different.
I'm sorry if this seems like avoiding the question. I don't mean to. I just think anything I might say wouldn't be that useful at this point. I will try to give you more input as things progress. And if specific other questions come up, please don't hesitate to ask me.

 

[Edgar F]

Well after using Elimnp and bacto balance for a year I can say it works.
Now I found that my levels are too low lol

Po4 .01
na 0

Thank lou for all your information on how to achieve this.

Any advice on no letting my levels bottom out

For now I have done the following

Turn of skimmer for 12 hrs a day
Algra scrubber 4 hours a day

Will test in a few days to see if it doesn't bottom my po4

Should I keep dosing bacto balance ?

Tnx in advance

 

[Lou Ekus]

Now that the level is so low, I would switch to PLUS NP. That will help get those levels up. Then, when you are back up to where you want to be, go back to the NP BACTO Balance. Every tank system is different. NP BACTO Balance will work great in most systems to maintain the levels you want. But in some systems, that run super clean like yours, you have to adjust a little. I'm sure your algae scrubber is taking up lots of nutrients and probably contributing greatly to this bottoming out.
It sounds like you are doing all the right things. And when you get back up, I would go back to the NP BACTO Balance. The secret is finding what balances your particular system. Please do let me know how you make out or if you have additional questions.

 

[Edgar F]

Now that the level is so low, I would switch to PLUS NP. That will help get those levels up. Then, when you are back up to where you want to be, go back to the NP BACTO Balance. Every tank system is different. NP BACTO Balance will work great in most systems to maintain the levels you want. But in some systems, that run super clean like yours, you have to adjust a little. I'm sure your algae scrubber is taking up lots of nutrients and probably contributing greatly to this bottoming out.
It sounds like you are doing all the right things. And when you get back up, I would go back to the NP BACTO Balance. The secret is finding what balances your particular system. Please do let me know how you make out or if you have additional questions.

Thank you so much Lou I will do some adjustments and see what happens but like we all know patience is the key !

while I get Plus NP will have to shut off skimmer and scrubber.

One thing I didn't mention is that I lost all my fish this year to velvet so I went FOLOW for a while the contribute to my level being so low now. Last month I added my first 4 fish and planning to add some more after they finish QT.

thx again and have a great day

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thank you so much Lou I will do some adjustments and see what happens but like we all know patience is the key !

while I get Plus NP will have to shut off skimmer and scrubber.

One thing I didn't mention is that I lost all my fish this year to velvet so I went FOLOW for a while the contribute to my level being so low now. Last month I added my first 4 fish and planning to add some more after they finish QT.

thx again and have a great day

i don't think you will need to "shut down" the skimmer and scrubber totally. But it wouldn't be unusual to have to decrease the lighting and running cycle some.

 

[Edgar F]

i don't think you will need to "shut down" the skimmer and scrubber totally. But it wouldn't be unusual to have to decrease the lighting and running cycle some.

yeah I agree ....

I have the cycle of the skimmer to 12 hours on/off
and algae scrubber 6 hours on 18 off

btw algae scrubber not producing because of the lack of nutrients and im also feeding 3/4 of a cube a day for 4 small fish.

 

[ctopherl]

It is very hard to say about the cloudiness and the PO4 levels. With the tank so new, and having so little a biological load in it, there will be lots and lots of variables. I think anything I would say, would be mere conjecture. My best suggestion is to keep an eye on things, and when you get more biological load going, you will be much more able to get things to be more "controllable". It is just too hard to "read" the tank, or make any assumptions about much, when things are this new and so few animals. I wish I had a better answer for you. It sounds like you are on the right track with the NP BACTO Balance. But that is apply today, in my opinion. In a tank system like this, you might easily find that tomorrow will be different.
I'm sorry if this seems like avoiding the question. I don't mean to. I just think anything I might say wouldn't be that useful at this point. I will try to give you more input as things progress. And if specific other questions come up, please don't hesitate to ask me.

Checking in again. I’ve dialed back dosing significantly and the cloudiness is dissipating as expected. I am doing 0.5ml every ~3 days.

My phosphates have dropped to .028ppm but nitrates have climbed to 30-40ppm. Any suggestion on keeping nitrates down short of changing lots of water? My ultimate goal is to avoid water changes due to the large tank volume. I thought the bacto balance was supposed to decrease nitrates as well.

It almost seems like I should feed more and/or temporarily stop dosing due to lower P levels. I am adding 3 fish next weekend so the bioload will start increasing here shortly.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Checking in again. I’ve dialed back dosing significantly and the cloudiness is dissipating as expected. I am doing 0.5ml every ~3 days.

My phosphates have dropped to .028ppm but nitrates have climbed to 30-40ppm. Any suggestion on keeping nitrates down short of changing lots of water? My ultimate goal is to avoid water changes due to the large tank volume. I thought the bacto balance was supposed to decrease nitrates as well.

It almost seems like I should feed more and/or temporarily stop dosing due to lower P levels. I am adding 3 fish next weekend so the bioload will start increasing here shortly.

All systems will respond a little differently. So there is no one silver bullet for ALL tanks. That being said, the "goal" of the NP BACTO Balance, in a perfect scenario, is not to increase or decrease anything. The NP BACTO Balance is designed to "maintain" whatever the concentrations were that you started with, while still effectively carbon dosing the system to facilitate the PO4 adsorption of your corals.

Unfortunately, the best, most effective way to reduce the NO3 concentration is, as you have already mentioned, water changes. If the system is resulting in lots of NO#, I would take a hard look at nutrient import through foods or possibly other products that are getting added. That NO3 has to be coming from somewhere!