NSW Parameters are NOT Going to Hurt Your Acropora

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Real ocean reef... dull and brown

great-barrier-reef-diver-615.jpg


Reef tank... bright and colorful

masanao-shibuya-sps-acropora-reef-tank-2.jpeg


I may be wrong, but I've never seen the crazy bright and colorful corals in the hobby in any picture of a wild reef. They only get that way in our tanks after we change the amount of nutrients and light they recieve.
 
Real ocean reef... dull and brown

great-barrier-reef-diver-615.jpg


Reef tank... bright and colorful

masanao-shibuya-sps-acropora-reef-tank-2.jpeg


I may be wrong, but I've never seen the crazy bright and colorful corals in the hobby in any picture of a wild reef. They only get that way in our tanks after we change the amount of nutrients and light they recieve.

Reef light - manipulated, mostly blue artificial light.

Real reef light - billions miles away producing warmer spectrum that makes most reefers puke.
 
And selection of the colorful types, leaving the brown ones in the ocean.

How many people have pet brown birds? Do the birds get more colorful on being captured?
 
Real ocean reef... dull and brown

great-barrier-reef-diver-615.jpg


Reef tank... bright and colorful

masanao-shibuya-sps-acropora-reef-tank-2.jpeg


I may be wrong, but I've never seen the crazy bright and colorful corals in the hobby in any picture of a wild reef. They only get that way in our tanks after we change the amount of nutrients and light they recieve.

In that reef documentary about bleaching, that came out a while ago, I saw some beautiful colors in the wild, but the narrator said the corals were that color because they were dieing. How should I interpret that. The documentary indicated to me, that corals turned bright colors when they are exposed to too much light. If we are going to keep reef tanks, each of us makes the choice of how we want (or wish) our little reef should look. The argument of what looks natural vs. the stunning and exotic beauty by enhancement from lighting and nutrients, will go on as long as home grown reefs exist.
 
Reef light - manipulated, mostly blue artificial light.

Real reef light - billions miles away producing warmer spectrum that makes most reefers puke.

Yes, so we've manipulated the lighting. Everyone on here is pretty much preaching that lighting and nutrients(and also alkalinity) must be in ballance. If you've manulipated the lighting away from natural sunlight, don't you think you might need to manipulate the nutrients away from NSW?

My point is I've never seen a home wrecker, walt disney, or garf bonsai in the wild... they came from there, but something has morphed them to bring out different colors. I'd bet you, that if you took the most colorful frag you could find and put it back in the ocean it would brown out if it didn't RTN.
 
Yes, so we've manipulated the lighting. Everyone on here is pretty much preaching that lighting and nutrients(and also alkalinity) must be in ballance. If you've manulipated the lighting away from natural sunlight, don't you think you might need to manipulate the nutrients away from NSW?

My point is I've never seen a home wrecker, walt disney, or garf bonsai in the wild... they came from there, but something has morphed them to bring out different colors. I'd bet you, that if you took the most colorful frag you could find and put it back in the ocean it would brown out if it didn't RTN.

I am a firm believer in natural reefing system. I don't use skimmer, GFO, etc. Mine is fully bacteria driven system, no WC for stable parameters (with manual dosing) and full spectrum light with a 4 hours burst of warm spectrum. Working great so far. I do agree with you that corals are dull and mostly brown looking in the wild because that is how our sun is.
 
Yes, so we've manipulated the lighting. Everyone on here is pretty much preaching that lighting and nutrients(and also alkalinity) must be in ballance. If you've manulipated the lighting away from natural sunlight, don't you think you might need to manipulate the nutrients away from NSW?

My point is I've never seen a home wrecker, walt disney, or garf bonsai in the wild... they came from there, but something has morphed them to bring out different colors. I'd bet you, that if you took the most colorful frag you could find and put it back in the ocean it would brown out if it didn't RTN.
Fun easy experiment. Take a full spectrum 56oo k light and put it over a reef tank. Lol
 
Nearly everything that we do is to try and replicate the ocean - even if you don't do it with N and P, you do it with everything else (Ca, Alk, Mag, temp, PH, SG). That quote is incredibly out of context, I would imagine. Ironically, I got the NSW numbers from Dr. Holmes-Farley's own articles. What is really telling is that people were generally better at this when they did more of trying to be like the ocean instead of trying to outsmart nature by using different "systems" and using dry/dead rock.

Like I said, this is not for everybody, but the advice about 2 N and .05 P tanks being "sterile" is just stupid and distracts from finding a real cause.. which is usually a young reef, unstable parameters, lights, or other things that people don't want to hear that they did wrong. ...it just wastes time and effort.

JDA I generally agree with this post and your OP about doing things simply and if it has to be called that, the old school way. I honestly don't like calling something old school that is 10-15 years old. Lots of more years need to pass before that term can be applied IMO but that's what people say so whatever. What we are talking about here are proven effective methods of reef keeping. Sure, there are different ways and different preferences but people shouldn't be ignored or dismissed because they don't follow the current trends.
Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with keeping slightly elevated parameters over NSW levels to give yourself a bit of wiggle room when it comes to the macro elements. But not when it comes to Nitrate. I cringe every time someone says as a first response to what's wrong with my SPS is "you need to dose nitrate". I also cringe with the groupthink and fad based mentality here on R2R that seems to completely ignore the huge mass of acquired knowledge on the hobby that has been gathered over years with a lot of hard work and dedication by some very smart people over on Reef Central and in the ReefKeeping Magazine archive.
I also want to point out how incredibly inaccurate nitrate test kits have proven to be. Watch the BRS Youtube video on it. They are all totally unreliable and you really are trying to find which is the least worst option with them so I think it's really hard to come to any hard conclusions based on any Nitrate test kit other than you are seeing a general range.
 
JDA I generally agree with this post and your OP about doing things simply and if it has to be called that, the old school way. I honestly don't like calling something old school that is 10-15 years old. Lots of more years need to pass before that term can be applied IMO but that's what people say so whatever. What we are talking about here are proven effective methods of reef keeping. Sure, there are different ways and different preferences but people shouldn't be ignored or dismissed because they don't follow the current trends.
Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with keeping slightly elevated parameters over NSW levels to give yourself a bit of wiggle room when it comes to the macro elements. But not when it comes to Nitrate. I cringe every time someone says as a first response to what's wrong with my SPS is "you need to dose nitrate". I also cringe with the groupthink and fad based mentality here on R2R that seems to completely ignore the huge mass of acquired knowledge on the hobby that has been gathered over years with a lot of hard work and dedication by some very smart people over on Reef Central and in the ReefKeeping Magazine archive.
+1.

But I will say. Group think and fad are part of the human condition.

Many of us here do our best to avoid these.
 
What is really telling is that people were generally better at this when they did more of trying to be like the ocean instead of trying to outsmart nature by using different "systems" and using dry/dead rock.
Your mention of the use of true live rock as an important part of successful reef keeping is something that I think warrants further discussion and consideration. After many reef tanks setup with live rock vs. two tanks setup with dead rock my observation is live rock= an actual ecosystem in your tank vs. dead rock = dead tank where algae/dinos proliferates much easier. It also takes much longer for a dead rock tank to mature, if ever. Yes, there are some negatives to live rock that we are all familiar with but there are whole product lines and natural controls that revolve around mitigating, killing, or removing those things.
It is my theory that the demise of live rock in the hobby coincides with the demise of the LFS and the decline of the popularity of the hobby in general because people fail and leave the hobby. I believe that the ecosystem created by live rock allows for a greater "cushion" or margin of error that you don't get with dead rock.
Live rock was literally the foundation in which successful SPS reef aquariums were built on. Live rock was considered by experts to be the deciding factor in what finally allowed difficult corals to be kept in captivity after many years of failures. Based on that alone, we have now gone backwards in the hobby in one important aspect while moving forward (debatable) in other aspects.
 
In that reef documentary about bleaching, that came out a while ago, I saw some beautiful colors in the wild, but the narrator said the corals were that color because they were dieing. How should I interpret that. The documentary indicated to me, that corals turned bright colors when they are exposed to too much light. If we are going to keep reef tanks, each of us makes the choice of how we want (or wish) our little reef should look. The argument of what looks natural vs. the stunning and exotic beauty by enhancement from lighting and nutrients, will go on as long as home grown reefs exist.

It's clear you weren't paying very much attention. The light those corals were exposed to never changed and hasn't changed for thousands of years.
 
Rising ocean temperatures

So you are saying that hot water produced the vivid colors and bleaching and not the sun? So warmer water would be a requirement for more colorful corals. Interesting
 
So you are saying that hot water produced the vivid colors and bleaching and not the sun? So warmer water would be a requirement for more colorful corals. Interesting

The theory is that it is overall stress which creates the colors. It's not really creating colors per se but it's the corals shedding some zooxanthellae. It's just a theory at this point, but plausible.
 
I agree with jda. But also notice that a lot of people these days think that if their tank drops to clear on a salifert test or 0 on a phosphate checker their corals will suddenly die or stress. That doesn't happen, given your feeding your fish in a normal fashion, which most anyone with a true reef tank does, and given your not actively trying to continue to drive nutrients farther down. Eventually if your not feeding or if your lights are not being used correctly things will begin to pale and or stress. Us reefers that have been in it for a while used to run our tanks like this for years and many, many incredible systems have come from it.
I have seen a trend of newer reefers reading about how 0 nutrients is bad and could be a death sentence, and also noticed they don't tend to read further into it to understand the whole story. The lighting plays a huge part in this conversation as well. Nutrients and lighting need to be in tune with each other.

I am in the opposite boat; I ran LPS/Softy for 3 years before I decided to try SPS. Everything I read said zero nutrients, and I see all this zeovit/carbon/ulns kick. What got lost in the mix was that my only focus was clear results in my test kits and I couldn't figure out why I was killing corals. I was stubborn and finally took the advice of some of the more advanced reef shops in the Orlando area and let my nutrients rise up. My struggle has always been keeping nutrients in the tank but auto feeders and more fish got my to the 5-10 nitrate 0.04 phosphate train and my tank has never looked better. Great growth and colors!

I have never ever ran into issues with detectable nutrients in my tank but I have when things get low.

Just look at how many posts you see where people are saying "what's wrong with my corals, my params are perfect" while showing zero detectable nutrients. This is perfect evidence that the common belief is that SPS need low nutrients.

Unique corals has a great write up on this exact topic.
 
I think there's a difference from a mature tank, and a new tank.

Most of the "NSW" (ULNS) systems that are old and mature are stable. This could be from years of food breaking down in the sand, it could be from heavy fish loads, or specifically from large fish (Pound for Pound, some fish poop more than others). But what I've noticed time and time again, are new people to the hobby having the SAME problems, over, and over again.

Browning and Paling
: Lots of people say this is due to too many nutrients, that's a *half* truth -- A high nutrient tank with moderate lighting may show brown corals. While the same tank with high lighting will allow corals to flourish. There is a line where Lighting and Nutrients cross, going too far one ways means brown corals -- too far the other means bleached corals. I've seen this over and over, and while it may be anecdotal, a whole plethora of people had encountered the same results.

So looking ahead, you see more people trying to run these ultra clean tanks and they begin running into the following issues:
- Stunted Growth
- Paling
- Loss of PE
- STN/RTN (more Slow Tissue Necrosis in my observations/experience)

The corals all seem to start withering away --

Now lets jump back to that "Mature tanks are better for SPS" thing -- Firstly, though not definable or testable to our knowledge, I will heartily agree there is something different about a mature tank, versus a new tank. It's true. It's been noted all over. The same parameters, and growth in one tank will not garner the same result in another brand new tank, even with the same gear. No, I do not have any studies for this in controlled environments. Just read waaay too many posts over the years to not see this (anecdotal) trend. So many people subscribe to this theory, yet they disappear when an argument comes out.

Dry rock is bad for SPS tanks -- Again, I disagree. I have personally met *many* people who've set up brand new tanks and had zero issues with dry rock doing performing any curses or hexes on our tanks. No research has been done on this. I've just met way too many people that have never had an issue with dry rock to believe this.

Nitrates and Phosphates make Algae -- To me, this is a half truth. YES, I am really going to argue that n03 and p04 do not make algae alone. There are a lot of processes going on in our tanks. Having kept what many would consider "high nutrients" (no3 @25, po4 @0.08+) for an SPS tank for the last 2 years, I can tell you never have my nutrients caused algae issue. But like @2Wheelsonly, my tank had an algae issue when I forced my tank down to ULNS standards. This is what allowed algae to take over. Contrary to popular beliefs, getting my po4 up actually seemed to stop growth -- Why, is a total mystery. But I am not the only person to report this. I have found that some people have higher nutrients with ZERO issue of algae, others have massive algae issues with even a hint of nutrients. This is the difference in systems. Each one may be unique, and some tanks may handle nutrients well while others will not.

This is why I stress that blindly telling people "you need ultra low nutrients" is bad form. I had zero issues until i went ULNS, which allowed more simple algae species to take over. When I quit ULNS, the problems disappeared. There have been far too many extremely knowledgeable people who've had zero issues with higher nutrients to completely discredit them. And as I've stated, I do not think keeping lower nutrients is wrong. I just believe it's Improper in new aquariums, and bad advice for new aquarists.

What are all these processes you're talking about? -- Frankly, we don't know the vast majority of them. But here's an interesting tidbit for you:
ocean-swimmer.jpg

VAST UNKNOWN: A liter of seawater collected near the Galapagos Islands contains at least 10 billion microbes and 100 billion viruses—the vast majority of which remain unidentified and uncharacterized.© ALEXIS ROSENFELD/SCIENCE SOURCE
Link: An ocean of Viruses

Why do viruses matter? -- Because they all do something. They don't just sit around, they have one purpose in life, and that is to replicate their DNA by injection into living cells. A few virus have been noted to infect algae DNA, causing the cell to replicate virus clones by way of DNA replication -- DNA replication is the basis of how all life works on our earth, Viruses attach to healthy cells, and inject their DNA into the host cell. The viral DNA cuts the DNA and replaces it with it's own strand of DNA -- The host cell then replicates the corrupted DNA, creating copies of the virus. The host cell eventually bursts, and the viral pathogens find their way to a new host. This is how all viral pathogens work, be it in nature with animals, plants, or our own bodies. In the ocean many viral pathogens naturally cull various types of algae -- That's right. Viruses are holding algae back growth.

Now whats my point here after that silly science lesson? That our tanks are probably pretty darn devoid of these algae eating pathogens. So in our tank, nutrients can play a larger role. Of course as I stated, that is not a guarantee either. Simply a possability.


This is a never-ending conversation -- There are many other factors, many other concepts, many other idea's, and frankly not nearly enough time to do a single one of them justice.


I think in our day and age, with the knowledge and understanding that we have, we should not ever stick to finite solutions or methods. I personally stick with what I've seen be the most practical, and most expected outcomes.


Question everything. Think outside the box. Do things differently. Treat your reef like an experiment..


And for pete's sake, go out and buy a biology textbook instead of another "fish book".
 
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My whole approach is simple... patience, pacific live rock, few inches of sand, metal halides, CaRx, big skimmer and reasonable water changes. This keeps the parameters like I posted all on their own, not artificially driven low. I do find it quite funny that most people who disagree with me have never had tanks as nice as mine, nearly as much success. I have mad respect for those with actual accomplishments that are not just reciting the accomplishments of others that disagree with me, but those are few - I really want to learn from these folks (I have been studying JBNY's limited water change philosophy as it develops). The amazing thing is that each noobie thinks that they are the first one to have everything figured out - most of them disappear in the second year.

As for books, please feel free to read something from an actual source that was vetted by the publication process. The problem with online stuff is that some is driven by manufacturers - EcoTech pays for a lot of what you see and read. Message boards put equal emphasis on people who are good enough to write a book and some noobies that have had some success for a few months with nubs that you can barely see - the loud and opinionated get the attention, not the experienced. Every good reef book is one-half chemistry and biology and which is just as relevant now as when they were written - anybody who says that they are worthless has not read one.

A while back, a really good poster on RC compared the advice of noobies, however well intentioned, (removed by staff...keep it family friendly).

BTW - sunlight is more like 5500K. They make these bulbs if you want your awesome looking corals to look like the ones in that first photo. You can get some awesome growth with one.

BBTW - Only photoshop shows WD and Homewreker like what you have seen online. Perhaps that is the next generation of reefing... on computer screens only.
 
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I'm not a fan of live rock from the ocean, I don't ever strive to match NSW or ulns, I've been in this hobby for years and have grown many "nubs" into sizeable colonies far surpassing little encrusting. I've also seen the homewrecker in person at WWC and looked like the pics online. I guess I'm all messed up. Lol
 

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