Nuisance Algae

[ShepherdReefer]

I am hoping someone can seriously help us. We have been in the saltwater fish for over 25 years. We have had many different size tanks during that time, most of these tanks were just upgraded...no need to start over. Just about two years ago, we rescued a 20-gallon saltwater fish tank in which the fish have outgrown the tank. Instead of adding the fish to the other existing tank, we wanted to start another one, small than the existing tank, but add all the fish together in the new tank located now in the living room.
So, January 30, 2020, we started a new 50-gallon IM Nuvo tank. This was the first new tank in a very long time. I wanted to do it right. We followed BRS starting up a new tank series; month 1 add bacteria, light the refugium, add Chaeto, add pods, add food, and cover glass; month 2 remove the cover over the glass, add one fish, and continue to feed; month 3 turn on lights over the display tank (DT).
Everything was running great, looking great, adding fish by fish. On April 10th, we added the carbon reactor using a maxi jet 1200. Then the brown algae appeared on two rocks in front of the tank. Increasing brown algae for starting to appear everywhere. Most said to leave it alone...it will go away, but it did not. The algae got so bad, we had to do something about it. At this time, the Chaeto started to die, floating on top of the water, slowly pulling itself apart, really nasty.
We have tried to do many different things from adding Vibrant to using Dr. Tim's Dinoflagellate treatment bundle to other treatments. Maybe we just did too much. Last week before vacation, the tank did look better but not perfect. We started brushing off the rock, the bottom glass, and filtering the saltwater using a 10-micron sock filter. That appeared to work, but at the same time...it did not.
We want to start adding coral, but we can't till this stuff is gone. We don't know what to do.

• 50-gallon IM Nuvo tank, Trigger Sump (one sock filter, PS chamber, refugium, and return pump section).
• Bubble-Magus Curve 5
• Tunze Osmolator 3155
• Octo Vario S2 pump
• 5-gallon RO tank
• Kessil H160 refugium light
• 2 Ecotech marine radion XR15 LED's
• MP10, MP40
• Neptune Apex
• Trident
• And a few other items

Phosphate 0.04 (Hanna), Ammonia 0.00, NO2 0.00, NO3 0.00, MG 1228ppm, CA 417ppm, ALK 9.53dkh, ORP 383 (usually over 450), PH 8.5 (not sure this is calibrated right, just got the solution to check).

Can I get any help?

 

[andrewey]

That looks like dinoflagellates to me. I won't comment on the effiacy of vibrant or Dr. Tim's for dinoflagellates, but I think it might be helpful to follow some of the reccomendations from the dinoflagellate thread. I'd particularly concerned with your nitrate & phosphate levels. I would look at remedying that in addition to the other suggestions.

 

[andrewey]

Here's the thread. I would check out the first post and follow the included links concerning IDing, the use of UV, water changes, etc.:

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info: some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

How many fish have you got in there now?

 

[Dan_P]

I am hoping someone can seriously help us. We have been in the saltwater fish for over 25 years. We have had many different size tanks during that time, most of these tanks were just upgraded...no need to start over. Just about two years ago, we rescued a 20-gallon saltwater fish tank in which the fish have outgrown the tank. Instead of adding the fish to the other existing tank, we wanted to start another one, small than the existing tank, but add all the fish together in the new tank located now in the living room.
So, January 30, 2020, we started a new 50-gallon IM Nuvo tank. This was the first new tank in a very long time. I wanted to do it right. We followed BRS starting up a new tank series; month 1 add bacteria, light the refugium, add Chaeto, add pods, add food, and cover glass; month 2 remove the cover over the glass, add one fish, and continue to feed; month 3 turn on lights over the display tank (DT).
Everything was running great, looking great, adding fish by fish. On April 10th, we added the carbon reactor using a maxi jet 1200. Then the brown algae appeared on two rocks in front of the tank. Increasing brown algae for starting to appear everywhere. Most said to leave it alone...it will go away, but it did not. The algae got so bad, we had to do something about it. At this time, the Chaeto started to die, floating on top of the water, slowly pulling itself apart, really nasty.
We have tried to do many different things from adding Vibrant to using Dr. Tim's Dinoflagellate treatment bundle to other treatments. Maybe we just did too much. Last week before vacation, the tank did look better but not perfect. We started brushing off the rock, the bottom glass, and filtering the saltwater using a 10-micron sock filter. That appeared to work, but at the same time...it did not.
We want to start adding coral, but we can't till this stuff is gone. We don't know what to do.

• 50-gallon IM Nuvo tank, Trigger Sump (one sock filter, PS chamber, refugium, and return pump section).
• Bubble-Magus Curve 5
• Tunze Osmolator 3155
• Octo Vario S2 pump
• 5-gallon RO tank
• Kessil H160 refugium light
• 2 Ecotech marine radion XR15 LED's
• MP10, MP40
• Neptune Apex
• Trident
• And a few other items

Phosphate 0.04 (Hanna), Ammonia 0.00, NO2 0.00, NO3 0.00, MG 1228ppm, CA 417ppm, ALK 9.53dkh, ORP 383 (usually over 450), PH 8.5 (not sure this is calibrated right, just got the solution to check).

Can I get any help?

You have quite a mess on your hands. A microscope would be invaluable for identifying what is growing in the aquarium. There is probably more than one type of species growing for more than one reason. Rip cleaning might be the fastest way to deal with it. @brandon429 can advise.

 

[andrewey]

You have quite a mess on your hands. A microscope would be invaluable for identifying what is growing in the aquarium. There is probably more than one type of species growing for more than one reason. Rip cleaning might be the fastest way to deal with it. @brandon429 can advise.

If the OP is dealing with dinos, any type of deep clean is likely to be ineffective and may even make the problem worse. I do agree that a microsocope would be useful in this case, although if that's not available, the OP could start treating prophylactically with those actions likely to help the situation with little downside (e.g. nutrient levels, UV).

 

[Dan_P]

If the OP is dealing with dinos, any type of deep clean is likely to be ineffective and may even make the problem worse. I do agree that a microsocope would be useful in this case, although if that's not available, the OP could start treating prophylactically with those actions likely to help the situation with little downside (e.g. nutrient levels, UV).

Are dinoflagellates “special” in the sense that they respond differently than nuisance algae and cyanobacteria to rip cleaning? If yess, is that connected to the nutrients fueling their growth?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Are dinoflagellates “special” in the sense that they respond differently than nuisance algae and cyanobacteria to rip cleaning? If yess, is that connected to the nutrients fueling their growth?

most dinoflagellates do bloom under nitrogen and phosphorus limited tanks. Hence the rip clean not being effective in most cases, Cyanobacteria would be a different story and a rip clean could be helpful.

 

[Dan_P]

most dinoflagellates do bloom under nitrogen and phosphorus limited tanks. Hence the rip clean not being effective in most cases, Cyanobacteria would be a different story and a rip clean could be helpful.

Yeah, that seems to be a common observation. I wonder though.

Dinoflagellates need nitrogen and phosphate to produce a bloom and if the water is depleted of N and P, it follows that the surface and near surface regions must be supplying them with what they need. If that is true, rip cleaning should resolve dinoflagellate growth, no?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yeah, that seems to be a common observation. I wonder though.

Dinoflagellates need nitrogen and phosphate to produce a bloom and if the water is depleted of N and P, it follows that the surface and near surface regions must be supplying them with what they need. If that is true, rip cleaning should resolve dinoflagellate growth, no?

I believe for most species of dinoflagellates a clean environment will keep them thriving, sometimes just letting the tank get “dirty” will be enough to let it die off and nutrients to raise. Specially wend we talking about the non photosynthetic species.
Have you noticed that Cyanobacteria can be easily killed with strains of bacteria? A healthy tank will never be exposed to Cyanobacteria as it can’t survive, I’ve tried this several times and if you bring home Cyanobacteria to a healthy tank it will burn itself in days.
you will also notice that most dinoflagellates threads are normally connected to someone trying to starve GHA or other invasive algae by limiting nutrients in a reef tank this will directly affect the bacteria population in the tank.

 

[ShepherdReefer]

Here's the thread. I would check out the first post and follow the included links concerning IDing, the use of UV, water changes, etc.:

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info: some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak...

www.reef2reef.com

We have had 0 nitrates from the start. I have tried to increase the nitrates with no success. The PH4 I thought was just about the correct level...but you are saying it is low too? I was just talking to someone about our issue. He suggested I use the ATI nutrition system...we are going to the local store today to get some and try.

In your experience, what should the level of these two be at?

 

[ShepherdReefer]

How many fish have you got in there now?

We have 4 fish and a large start fish.

 

[andrewey]

Before adding any "quick fixes" or supplements to the tank, I would start with the basics. Try and raise your nitrates to 10 and your phosphates to at least 0.10.

 

[andrewey]

Yeah, that seems to be a common observation. I wonder though.

Dinoflagellates need nitrogen and phosphate to produce a bloom and if the water is depleted of N and P, it follows that the surface and near surface regions must be supplying them with what they need. If that is true, rip cleaning should resolve dinoflagellate growth, no?

Dinoflagellates are extremely different than most marine algaes we encounter. That's why the normal recommendations for cyanobacteria, hair algae, bryopsis, bubble algae, etc. are ineffective. The thread is a great resource (although large) as many have tried exactly what you are suggesting and it makes everything much worse.

 

[Dan_P]

Dinoflagellates are extremely different than most marine algaes we encounter. That's why the normal recommendations for cyanobacteria, hair algae, bryopsis, bubble algae, etc. are ineffective. The thread is a great resource (although large) as many have tried exactly what you are suggesting and it makes everything much worse.

Can you share some pointers on why dinoflagellates are a very different sort of pest?

 

[andrewey]

Sure- first, did you read the opening posts of the thread? I don't want to waste your time covering things you've likely already read. I'm trying to determine whether you have specific concerns for their treatment as a hobbyist, are asking as a philosophical question, are interested in their classification of algae/protozoan vs. other marine algaes, etc.?

 

[Dan_P]

I believe for most species of dinoflagellates a clean environment will keep them thriving, sometimes just letting the tank get “dirty” will be enough to let it die off and nutrients to raise. Specially wend we talking about the non photosynthetic species.
Have you noticed that Cyanobacteria can be easily killed with strains of bacteria? A healthy tank will never be exposed to Cyanobacteria as it can’t survive, I’ve tried this several times and if you bring home Cyanobacteria to a healthy tank it will burn itself in days.
you will also notice that most dinoflagellates threads are normally connected to someone trying to starve GHA or other invasive algae by limiting nutrients in a reef tank this will directly affect the bacteria population in the tank.

Yes, I have read about the idea of “clean“ vs “dirty” systems, the former somehow enabling dinoflagellate growth. One thing I don’t understand about this idea is the method by which an observer can determine whether a system is “dirty” or “clean” or something in between. Do you have a good explanation of “clean” vs “dirty”?

 

[andrewey]

I don't really put much stock into the ideas of "clean" vs. "dirty" systems- I find this to be too much of a generalization that often muddies the complexity of the situation. For that reason, I agree with you- how would you even define "dirty" vs "clean"?

However, within the generalization seems to be a nugget of truth for many reefers that those systems that are nitrogen (N) & Phosphorous (P) limited provide an environment where those organisms that can readily thrive with limited N & P availability have an advantage over those organisms that have higher N & P requirements. I think this explains a pretty common observation by many hobbyists who experience their first dino outbreaks secondary to methods that limit these nutrients (e.g. aggressive carbon dosing, installing a refugium, etc.). Obviously, this isn't to say this is the only way by which dinos may proliferate in our environments and I haven't really touched on the idea of nutrient limited vs. measures of nutrients, but it's a good starting place that is applicable to many hobbyists encountering dinos. It's often why many find sucsess in raising levels of N & P to alleviate this selective pressure (in tandem with other approaches) as opposed to further restricting N & P availability, which seems to only make the problem worse.

 

[Dan_P]

Sure- first, did you read the opening posts of the thread? I don't want to waste your time covering things you've likely already read. I'm trying to determine whether you have specific concerns for their treatment as a hobbyist, are asking as a philosophical question, are interested in their classification of algae/protozoan vs. other marine algaes, etc.?

Hit me with all the phycology you can. What makes dinoflagellates so different from the other pesky organisms that grow in my aquarium?

 

[Dan_P]

I don't really put much stock into the ideas of "clean" vs. "dirty" systems- I find this to be too much of a generalization that often muddies the complexity of the situation. For that reason, I agree with you- how would you even define "dirty" vs "clean"?

However, within the generalization seems to be a nugget of truth for many reefers that those systems that are nitrogen (N) & Phosphorous (P) limited provide an environment where those organisms that can readily thrive with limited N & P availability have an advantage over those organisms that have higher N & P requirements. I think this explains a pretty common observation by many hobbyists who experience their first dino outbreaks secondary to methods that limit these nutrients (e.g. aggressive carbon dosing, installing a refugium, etc.). Obviously, this isn't to say this is the only way by which dinos may proliferate in our environments and I haven't really touched on the idea of nutrient limited vs. measures of nutrients, but it's a good starting place that is applicable to many hobbyists encountering dinos. It's often why many find sucsess in raising levels of N & P to alleviate this selective pressure (in tandem with other approaches) as opposed to further restricting N & P availability, which seems to only make the problem worse.

I have two questions now, but will ask them one at a time.

How do we differentiate between a dinoflagellate bloom that might originate from an increase in the number of dinoflagellates in the system to a bloom that might originate merely from dinoflagellates congregating in a favorable locale, say, from floating all over the system to alighting on a rock surface?