Nutrient Control...

[Salt1972]

A lot of you make nutrient control look easy. I receive a little jab every time I see someone post about dosing nitrates and phosphates... good grief!

My daughter and I ran a 55g for 4+ years before starting a 125g mixed reef last September. The 55 was always plagued with 30-50ppm nitrates and elevated phosphates. We learned the sources included older, deep substrate, poor skimming, and no other nutrient export methods.

When we started our 125g, we knew we wanted to explore SPS corals in addition to the many LPS, fish, and inverts. So, we knew we needed to control nutrients with a plan. In addition to 20% water changes every 2 weeks, we have strong skimmers and started a refugium with chaeto and caleurpa macro algaes under a Kessil H80 running 22 hours / day. The refugium has helped us maintain nutrients, but, today, they were higher than in weeks past. Nitrates = 10ppm and Phosphates .107ppm. Nothing horrible, but still higher than we'd like. The macro algae is growing, but slowly. I don't feel like we're maximizing the potential there. I increased the flow and made it indirect in an effort to spread out the surface area of the algae. In the past, the flow pushed it all to 1 corner. What else can we do to maximize nutrient uptake in the refugium?

Additional options:

• Algae Turf Scrubber - pros - almost all users report undetectable nutrients. con - we have a purple tang that LOVES the caleurpa. If the ATS comes online, it would likely starve out the caleurpa.
• Vinegar Dosing - this may be a contender. I think it addresses nitrates more than phosphates. Are there other cons?
• GFO - messy, maintenance intensive, and costly.

Fish:

• 11 Green Chromis
• 2 Ocellaris Clowns
• 1 Purple Tang

Inverts:

• 1 Sally Lightfoot Crab
• 3 Peppermint Shrimp
• 1 Blood Shrimp
• 1 Scarlett Cleaner Shrimp
• 1 Pistol Shrimp
• 2 Emerald Crabs

Corals:

• Large Duncan colony
• Large Frogspawn colony
• GSP
• Neon Torch
• Red Setosa frag
• Rainbow Plays
• Sunset Monti frag
• Hawkins Enchinata frag
• Cali Tort frag
• Cyphastrea frag
• Laptastrea frag
• Red Dragon frag
• Blastos
• Maze brain

Feeding:

• Freeze Dried Mysis in auto feeder 1x per day. ~ 1/2 tsp
• Mix Hikari Marine S & New Life Spectrum Thera A+ pellets in auto feeder 1x/ day. ~ 1/4 tsp
• 1 cube frozen mysis + 1 cube Reef Frenzy + Reef Chili - 2x per week

What do you guys recommend? Thanks for your help!

 

[PmCarbrey]

I personally use one of the scrubbers they sell at BRS on all of my tanks. I overfeed in the extreme, my 125 gets 3 cubes of mysis a day at minimum and also gets fed reef roids three times a week, ever since I added a scrubber I have had 0 nitrates, and 0 phosphates. I previously had another brand scrubber that at the time I thought worked well, but switched to the BRS ones because of the special grow lights and the design just looking sleeker. The BRS far out performs the one I had, I'm pulling out mats of algae that are an inch thick on each side weekly!

 

[rushbattle]

I think your inorganic nutrient levels are ideal for coral growth. What is your alkalinity?

Increased performance of macroalgae based nutrient removal would involve ensuring there is enough iron(or other limiting nutrient) and light to support growth. 22hrs/day is likely to reduce algae growth, I think 18 might even be pushing it, but I don’t have access to the journal articles where I read about that any longer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I agree that the nutrient levels are fine.

if I were to add an export method, I'd choose organic carbon dosing since I think it has benefits beyond nutrient control (e.g., feeding filter feeders).

 

[Salt1972]

I personally use one of the scrubbers they sell at BRS on all of my tanks. I overfeed in the extreme, my 125 gets 3 cubes of mysis a day at minimum and also gets fed reef roids three times a week, ever since I added a scrubber I have had 0 nitrates, and 0 phosphates. I previously had another brand scrubber that at the time I thought worked well, but switched to the BRS ones because of the special grow lights and the design just looking sleeker. The BRS far out performs the one I had, I'm pulling out mats of algae that are an inch thick on each side weekly!

I've considered an ATS like the BRS one (I think that's Clear Water Scrubbers). Everyone that uses them reports 0 nutrients (which can have it's own issues). We have a purple tang that LOVES caleurpa that we grow in our refugium. I'm told that the ATS would starve / kill any other macros in the system. What do you (and others with ATS) feed tangs and other herbivores?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Salt1972]

I agree that the nutrient levels are fine.

if I were to add an export method, I'd choose organic carbon dosing since I think it has benefits beyond nutrient control (e.g., feeding filter feeders).

Randy- Thank you for your continued help. I've learned HEAPS from you and your articles over the last 6 months. My first indicator that PO4 was rising was the film on the glass is daily rather than once or twice per week. There's also a 'film' of brown algae on the rock work that is easily dispersed. Several have suggested that .1ppm Po4 and 10ppm NO3 are fine, but I also get conflicting info and read your recs that nitrates should be under 3ppm and phosphates under .03.

Since we added several SPS frags in recent months, we're trying to be diligent about maintaining ideal parameters. Our last tank (bought used) and run an additional 4.5 years was always a disaster for nitrates and phosphates. We almost stopped as a result. So, that problem is not one we want to repeat.

Would it be wrong to consider vinegar dosing? Why wouldn't we since our levels are on the high side of ideal?

Again, thank you!

M

 

[Salt1972]

I think your inorganic nutrient levels are ideal for coral growth. What is your alkalinity?

Increased performance of macroalgae based nutrient removal would involve ensuring there is enough iron(or other limiting nutrient) and light to support growth. 22hrs/day is likely to reduce algae growth, I think 18 might even be pushing it, but I don’t have access to the journal articles where I read about that any longer.

We target and maintain 8.2dKH using BRS /Randy 2 Part. We've been manually dosing, but testing a doser for the last 2 weeks that will go online this weekend.

Are there iron tests? I'm new to reefing, but intuition tells me not to dose anything that we can't measure, no?

Our light cycle... so many people advised against the caleurpa, we run a little scared. We started with chaeto, but weren't getting the growth / export we needed. At the same time, we added purple tang who eats caleurpa like it's the best stuff on earth. So many people talked about the caleurpa going sexual and infesting the tank, we were advised to run 24hr light. I'm happy to take advice from those with more experience.

Thank you for your help.

M

 

[Tautog]

I have a 180, and also had higher than usual nitrates, over 80. Did more and larger WC’s, Vinegar dosing, NoPox, removed a deep sand bed, and was ready to toss in the towel. A skipped a day in between feedings, fed less more often, and stopped feeding Reef Chilli or Roids but once a week and only a small amount, less than half recommended amounts. I had just started dosing 2- part, and concentrated on Alkalinity , Calcium, and Magnesium. My nitrates run between 10-20 ppm, 7.5-8.5 dKH, Ca 430, Mg 1350. Since getting the tank stable, the corals, Acros, noticeable growth was easy to see.

 

[rushbattle]

We target and maintain 8.2dKH using BRS /Randy 2 Part. We've been manually dosing, but testing a doser for the last 2 weeks that will go online this weekend.

Are there iron tests? I'm new to reefing, but intuition tells me not to dose anything that we can't measure, no?

Our light cycle... so many people advised against the caleurpa, we run a little scared. We started with chaeto, but weren't getting the growth / export we needed. At the same time, we added purple tang who eats caleurpa like it's the best stuff on earth. So many people talked about the caleurpa going sexual and infesting the tank, we were advised to run 24hr light. I'm happy to take advice from those with more experience.

Thank you for your help.

M

That’s a good alk target, good job.

There are iron tests but they aren’t useful because iron is eliminated so quickly in aquaria. Dosing a small amount daily is perfectly safe, and overdosing, depending on the iron source, might just reduce P level in the water. I would use an available form of iron like iron citrate. Not iron chelates with edta, it might never become bioavailable. And it makes all of your corals green, at least in my experience! Iron will certainly help with macro growth.

I guess I missed the caleurpa part. Perhaps 22 hours is fine. I haven’t grown caleurpa in over a decade. It was lit 16 hours and grew just fine. I would make sure it has enough iron and trim it regularly. Going sexual isn’t a problem unless you have pounds of it. Just keep it trimmed.

 

[Josh@ClearWaterScrubbers]

I've considered an ATS like the BRS one (I think that's Clear Water Scrubbers). Everyone that uses them reports 0 nutrients (which can have it's own issues). We have a purple tang that LOVES caleurpa that we grow in our refugium. I'm told that the ATS would starve / kill any other macros in the system. What do you (and others with ATS) feed tangs and other herbivores?

Thanks for your help.

You can feed the Tang’s the hair algae from the ATS. Mine go crazy for it. Just pull it off and attach it to a clip as you would a nori sheet.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Are there iron tests? I'm new to reefing, but intuition tells me not to dose anything that we can't measure, no?

Not always.

1. Some things are so low there are no useful kits (e.g., iron)
2. Some are depleted so fast that you are often safe boosting it to NSW once a week and you'll not typically see an elevated level (in my tank, iodine and silicate fell into this category, although IME, the iodine dosing was not beneficial).
3. Some things are typically depleted in concert with other things (e.g., calcium and magnesium declines can be tracked by alk declines) so that measuring only one of several parameters may be adequate

 

[Pntbll687]

I run Dr Tim's NP-active pearls as on alternative to gfo. WAY LESS MESS, and I only need to change it every couple of months on my system. It does take longer to establish and deplete phosphates, usually 3-4 weeks, but once it started it has been great!

On my larger system I run cheato as main nutrient export. The key is keep cutting and trimming it to get more growth. I will take mine and rinse with ro water to get any waste trapped in it, then give it a trim and add it all back. I only throw some away once it fills the chamber it is in.

 

[PmCarbrey]

Like was mentioned above I also feed the algae grown from my scrubber to my tangs, they all seem to love it. My nutrient levels are significantly lower than they were pre scrubber, but so far I have noticed no negative effects. I'm sure if overnight it had stripped 100% of the nitrates and phosphates out of the water my coral would have died from shock, but the decrease over the course of a few weeks didn't seem to harm anything. If anything I'd say my coral actually likes the water quality now better.

I'm a big fan of idiot proof solutions, and my scrubber is pretty idiot proof! I don't have to worry about forgetting replenish media, empty reactors, or dose something like no po4x, all I do is scrape it when I do my water change, it adds all of 30 seconds to my routine.

 

[Salt1972]

Like was mentioned above I also feed the algae grown from my scrubber to my tangs, they all seem to love it. My nutrient levels are significantly lower than they were pre scrubber, but so far I have noticed no negative effects. I'm sure if overnight it had stripped 100% of the nitrates and phosphates out of the water my coral would have died from shock, but the decrease over the course of a few weeks didn't seem to harm anything. If anything I'd say my coral actually likes the water quality now better.

I'm a big fan of idiot proof solutions, and my scrubber is pretty idiot proof! I don't have to worry about forgetting replenish media, empty reactors, or dose something like no po4x, all I do is scrape it when I do my water change, it adds all of 30 seconds to my routine.

PmCarbrey - Thanks for the input. Which scrubber do you use?

 

[PmCarbrey]

PmCarbrey - Thanks for the input. Which scrubber do you use?

I use Clearwater brand that BRS sells. I'm actually testing one of their new mini models which I'm super hyped for

 

[Salt1972]

I use Clearwater brand that BRS sells. I'm actually testing one of their new mini models which I'm super hyped for

I'm sorry I didn't connect your comment with the earlier one and put 2 + 2 together!... the ATS / CWS is very attractive to a guy who has struggled to maintain decent nutrient levels.

I made a few tweaks to our refugium - light position, cleaned/rinsed macro (caleurpa and chaeto), upped flow rate, and started an Iron dosing schedule (2mL x 2x/wk) per Randy's advice. We'll see if that increases growth and nutrient uptake. If not, I'll be looking at an ATS or vinegar dosing.

I appreciate the advice and suggestions here.