Nutrient Export Issues - Sump Question

[Greg Depo]

Hey guys quick question about my sump. I've struggled with elevated PO4 and Nitrates for what seems like years on this 3 year old 140G setup. I first tried a refugium but could never grow any macro algea so a year and half or so ago I removed the refugium area and put some broken up live rock in that area. I then added a gfo/carbon reactor from BRS, upgraded the skimmer to a much larger version and added a octo bio-churn bio-pellet reactor. Since then its been up and down values. Today it sits at 30 nitrates and .3 PO4. After doing some research I realized that my pentair uv sterilizer could be causing an issue for the bio-pellets bacteria to colonize so that's been off for almost 2 months and now I am seeing some nitrate reduction but the values are still too high for my liking. Check out the diagram I made real quick.

My question is can I simply remove the live rock rubble and not have anything but reactors in the sump? The issue I think I maybe seeing is in the skimmer area its way to cluttered and I have no way of making sure the bio-pellet output water is being skimmed. Its so tight in that area I can only fit the equipment in the way the diagram shows it. My initial thoughts is this waste from the bio-pellet reactor causing my phosphate/nitrates to increase or stay high? My plan is to remove the move-able wall in the center of the two areas and make it on large compartment and place the biochurn reactor first then the skimmer and then the gfo/carbon reactor. Does that sound right to you guys? Will I see any uptick in nutrients by removing the rubble?

Thanks

 

[minus9]

Do you clear out detritus in the rubble? If it's impacted with detritus, then it's ability to be a productive bio-filter is diminished. I would use some PNS Probio twice a week at the recommended dose until you see improvement, then once a week until things settle in. Are you having issues because of those levels? Algae? Cyano? Also, macro algae rely on certain trace elements as well, so nutrients are not the deciding factor in their growth.

 

[Greg Depo]

Do you clear out detritus in the rubble? If it's impacted with detritus, then it's ability to be a productive bio-filter is diminished. I would use some PNS Probio twice a week at the recommended dose until you see improvement, then once a week until things settle in. Are you having issues because of those levels? Algae? Cyano? Also, macro algae rely on certain trace elements as well, so nutrients are not the deciding factor in their growth.

I rarely clean that area but I can today the issue I've noticed with detritus is the trigger platinum sump has areas below the roller mat filter that collects detritus and its inaccessible to clean since its a very short area (less than an inch).

As for the algae there isnt much and no cyano. I think the UV basically ended the algae and it hasn't come back yet.

I am doing the brs hybrid balling method but I wasn't back when I was trying to grow macro. If I where to head down that road again I'd be more inclined to do a algae scrubber than a true refugium.

Also do you see an issue if I pull that rubble out? Or is it best to stay? As for the reason of the post I feel that some of the sps has stagnant growth and looking into that I realized how high PO4 and nitrates are. There is some growth but I've also lost some sps that basically bleach out and die.

Thanks

 

[minus9]

Put a small powerhead in that area of the sump to kick up the detritus so it doesn't collect. You can use a timer (or controller) and turn it on once or twice a day to kick things up. I use a small powerhead in my return section (I put my auto feeder in my return section, so the pump keep the food in suspension until the pump pushes it into the display) so it helps keep that area clear. There could be a number of things that cause issues with sps growth or TN, lack of certain trace elements, lighting, flow, alk and other parameters swings, etc... Elevated nutrients can be a limiting factor with growth, but it's usually not a death sentence with your numbers.
My recommendation of PNS Probio serves two purposes, one it helps to reduce nutrients (organics) and two, it's food for the corals, the bacteria consume the N&P and make it available in a form that corals can use.
Read this.

 

[Greg Depo]

Put a small powerhead in that area of the sump to kick up the detritus so it doesn't collect. You can use a timer (or controller) and turn it on once or twice a day to kick things up. I use a small powerhead in my return section (I put my auto feeder in my return section, so the pump keep the food in suspension until the pump pushes it into the display) so it helps keep that area clear. There could be a number of things that cause issues with sps growth or TN, lack of certain trace elements, lighting, flow, alk and other parameters swings, etc... Elevated nutrients can be a limiting factor with growth, but it's usually not a death sentence with your numbers.
My recommendation of PNS Probio serves two purposes, one it helps to reduce nutrients (organics) and two, it's food for the corals, the bacteria consume the N&P and make it available in a form that corals can use.
Read this.

If the nutrients are that high would I see SPS growth? I am still seeing daily growth so part of me thinks/wishes that maybe my testing methods arent sound. I've tried 3 different brands and they all show elevated results but its hard to imagine I'd see any growth with SPS if the PO4 was that high.

I went ahead and did get some PNS since I was due for some ecopods so I will give that a shot soon.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Hey guys quick question about my sump. I've struggled with elevated PO4 and Nitrates for what seems like years on this 3 year old 140G setup. I first tried a refugium but could never grow any macro algea so a year and half or so ago I removed the refugium area and put some broken up live rock in that area. I then added a gfo/carbon reactor from BRS, upgraded the skimmer to a much larger version and added a octo bio-churn bio-pellet reactor. Since then its been up and down values. Today it sits at 30 nitrates and .3 PO4. After doing some research I realized that my pentair uv sterilizer could be causing an issue for the bio-pellets bacteria to colonize so that's been off for almost 2 months and now I am seeing some nitrate reduction but the values are still too high for my liking. Check out the diagram I made real quick.

My question is can I simply remove the live rock rubble and not have anything but reactors in the sump? The issue I think I maybe seeing is in the skimmer area its way to cluttered and I have no way of making sure the bio-pellet output water is being skimmed. Its so tight in that area I can only fit the equipment in the way the diagram shows it. My initial thoughts is this waste from the bio-pellet reactor causing my phosphate/nitrates to increase or stay high? My plan is to remove the move-able wall in the center of the two areas and make it on large compartment and place the biochurn reactor first then the skimmer and then the gfo/carbon reactor. Does that sound right to you guys? Will I see any uptick in nutrients by removing the rubble?

Thanks

If your corals are growing, and the “numbers” bother only you , lowering those numbers is probably the worst idea you’ve had. Just my .02 cents. Grass isn’t greener on the other side. I have to dose my no3 to keep it elevated to 30 ppm. If I stop dosing it nose dives to 0 and I get RTN. Remember it’s not about our liking, it’s about what corals like. If you have good growth there’s no reason to change it. Moreover, I’d venture to say that you are seeing good growth because of the nutrients. High nutrient/high light/ high flow tanks grow corals much better than low nutrient tanks do. If you have brown corals, then you can raise your light intensity, and add a bit more flow. I was in your shoes before. I had a reef tank full of corals growing and I had multiple acro colonies just doing amazing. However, the no3 and po4 were not up to “my liking” no3 25 ppm po4 .1 . Not a single issue in the tank, but I had to do something about those numbers, of corse. Boy did I drop those numbers with some carbon dosing, and every single acropora RTND, all mushrooms shrunk and died, LPS were POd.
Check this video out, See if you think he needs to lower his numbers.

 

[minus9]

If your corals are growing, and the “numbers” bother only you , lowering those numbers is probably the worst idea you’ve had. Just my .02 cents. Grass isn’t greener on the other side. I have to dose my no3 to keep it elevated to 30 ppm. If I stop dosing it nose dives to 0 and I get RTN. Remember it’s not about our liking, it’s about what corals like. If you have good growth there’s no reason to change it. Moreover, I’d venture to say that you are seeing good growth because of the nutrients. High nutrient/high light/ high flow tanks grow corals much better than low nutrient tanks do. If you have brown corals, then you can raise your light intensity, and add a bit more flow. I was in your shoes before. I had a reef tank full of corals growing and I had multiple acro colonies just doing amazing. However, the no3 and po4 were not up to “my liking” no3 25 ppm po4 .1 . Not a single issue in the tank, but I had to do something about those numbers, of corse. Boy did I drop those numbers with some carbon dosing, and every single acropora RTND, all mushrooms shrunk and died, LPS were POd.
Check this video out, See if you think he needs to lower his numbers.

This^^^^ it's about your system and how it runs/processes nutrients. Each tank will be different, the key here is observation. Just research Richard Ross, then come back here and tell us your N & P are high. Just find a happy place and keep it stable.

 

[Greg Depo]

If your corals are growing, and the “numbers” bother only you , lowering those numbers is probably the worst idea you’ve had. Just my .02 cents. Grass isn’t greener on the other side. I have to dose my no3 to keep it elevated to 30 ppm. If I stop dosing it nose dives to 0 and I get RTN. Remember it’s not about our liking, it’s about what corals like. If you have good growth there’s no reason to change it. Moreover, I’d venture to say that you are seeing good growth because of the nutrients. High nutrient/high light/ high flow tanks grow corals much better than low nutrient tanks do. If you have brown corals, then you can raise your light intensity, and add a bit more flow. I was in your shoes before. I had a reef tank full of corals growing and I had multiple acro colonies just doing amazing. However, the no3 and po4 were not up to “my liking” no3 25 ppm po4 .1 . Not a single issue in the tank, but I had to do something about those numbers, of corse. Boy did I drop those numbers with some carbon dosing, and every single acropora RTND, all mushrooms shrunk and died, LPS were POd.
Check this video out, See if you think he needs to lower his numbers.

Awesome video and advice. I think its a good lesson but goes against the mainstream folks in a way. I think I will be holding tight and ensuring that ratio stays in balance. My PH I would love to get higher. Its like 7.8 at night and 8.0 during the light phase.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Awesome video and advice. I think its a good lesson but goes against the mainstream folks in a way. I think I will be holding tight and ensuring that ratio stays in balance. My PH I would love to get higher. Its like 7.8 at nice and 8.0 during the light phase.

I think when I started carbon dosing, the mainstream opinion was 0 po4 and 0 no3, or your tank is disgusting, and you don't know how to keep reef tanks. Currently, the majority opinion is that no3, and po4 should be kept at least detectable, and higher numbers aren't as much of a problem, just requires higher Par and flow. Another mainstream opinion is that you shouldn't chase the Ph, and I've always thought that was terrible advice. Ph is essential, and I've been chasing it for quite a while. Kalkwasser is a good supplement (side note it also precipitates Po4, so I heard) It might be an excellent all-around addition to your system. Running an air intake tube outside and getting the largest skimmer you can is also a great idea. I was hitting 7.7 at night before Kalk and a larger skimmer, and now I'm hitting 8.62 daily. Increasing Ph will probably increase your coral growth and your tank will theoretically start consuming additions No3 and Po4.

 

[Greg Depo]

I think when I started carbon dosing, the mainstream opinion was 0 po4 and 0 no3, or your tank is disgusting, and you don't know how to keep reef tanks. Currently, the majority opinion is that no3, and po4 should be kept at least detectable, and higher numbers aren't as much of a problem, just requires higher Par and flow. Another mainstream opinion is that you shouldn't chase the Ph, and I've always thought that was terrible advice. Ph is essential, and I've been chasing it for quite a while. Kalkwasser is a good supplement (side note it also precipitates Po4, so I heard) It might be an excellent all-around addition to your system. Running an air intake tube outside and getting the largest skimmer you can is also a great idea. I was hitting 7.7 at night before Kalk and a larger skimmer, and now I'm hitting 8.62 daily. Increasing Ph will probably increase your coral growth and your tank will theoretically start consuming additions No3 and Po4.

I'll look into Kalkwasser... any reactor/stirrer you guys would recommend? I've heard alot of issues from people on these boards about them.

Thanks again