Nutrients or Whole Tank Nutrition?

[Brandon McHenry]

Hi fellow stick heads! I’ve been seeing a lot about nutrients on this forum lately and was hoping to add my 2 cents and maybe start a meaningful discussion. While I am a firm believer that there are many different ways to run a successful reef tank, and that SPS will thrive with varying nitrate and phosphate levels, I am confused why I see so many people talking about dosing nitrate and phosphate as a solution to SPS issues. I certainly don’t believe you have to have higher nitrate and phosphate to be successful. In fact, my water test this weekend was clear on salifert nitrate and 0ppb on Hanna ULR phosphorus checker and things look really nice. I think in my case it’s feeding my tank very heavily with many different foods and particle sizes so that everything is getting it’s required nutrition to be healthy. I guess I’m just wondering why the conversation is about nitrate and phosphate instead of feeding your reef as a whole and making sure everything is as healthy as possible. I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions on this topic!

 

[92Miata]

The conversation is about phosphate and nitrate because people can measure them.


(And you're completely correct - they're proxies for what's actually important - food in, waste out. In my experience, tons of food in, tons of export is the best way to go. )

 

[Smite]

I added a Brightwell brick to my new system (same old rock from the last few years), went bare bottom, have started biodigest prodibo bacteria regimen and kept all my oversized equipment from my down grade. I’m feeding 4-5x a day for my Anthias :
Rods reef
LRS frenzy
A homemade diy mix from a local reefer
I addition I feed oyster feast and phyto feast Every other day.

my growth is better than before but so far I don’t have the really deep color I had with high nutrients. By high I was steadily at 25ppm+- and around .3 phosphates. I’ve been at 2-5ppl nitrate and .02-.08 phosphate for the last few weeks

I’m going to give it more time at these levels before making a decision to raise nutrients but it’s been pretty interesting so far.
Do you have any pictures of your tank OP? It always helps to see the different systems

Edit:
I have kept my lights at a similar strength as when I was high nutrient. That could be a factor as wel.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

The conversation is about phosphate and nitrate because people can measure them.


(And you're completely correct - they're proxies for what's actually important - food in, waste out. In my experience, tons of food in, tons of export is the best way to go. )

Very true. It is definitely great that we can measure them and get an idea of what’s going on in the tank. But without context, they aren’t as useful. 0 N/P may be fine for me when I feed 5 times per day but detrimental to someone who only feeds once. I think the discussion of fish load, how often they are fed and what types of food is an important part of the conversation that needs to be included with the N/P measurements. And I totally agree, my best tanks have been heavy in heavy out.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I added a Brightwell brick to my new system (same old rock from the last few years), went bare bottom, have started biodigest prodibo bacteria regimen and kept all my oversized equipment from my down grade. I’m feeding 4-5x a day for my Anthias :
Rods reef
LRS frenzy
A homemade diy mix from a local reefer
I addition I feed oyster feast and phyto feast Every other day.

my growth is better than before but so far I don’t have the really deep color I had with high nutrients. By high I was steadily at 25ppm+- and around .3 phosphates. I’ve been at 2-5ppl nitrate and .02-.08 phosphate for the last few weeks

I’m going to give it more time at these levels before making a decision to raise nutrients but it’s been pretty interesting so far.
Do you have any pictures of your tank OP? It always helps to see the different systems

Edit:
I have kept my lights at a similar strength as when I was high nutrient. That could be a factor as wel.

I definitely think you can get better growth at lower N/P. If you are concerned about coloration you could always feed more or get more fish. That’s fun for you and your corals! Lol but seriously this is why I want to make these types of discussions more common in the nutrient conversations.

And here is my tank just after yesterday’s water change.

 

[92Miata]

Very true. It is definitely great that we can measure them and get an idea of what’s going on in the tank. But without context, they aren’t as useful. 0 N/P may be fine for me when I feed 5 times per day but detrimental to someone who only feeds once. I think the discussion of fish load, how often they are fed and what types of food is an important part of the conversation that needs to be included with the N/P measurements. And I totally agree, my best tanks have been heavy in heavy out.

I think a lot of people have trouble understanding how wide the gamut is with feeding. There are people who feed once a week - and its understandably difficult for them to understand what someone who feeds heavy means when they say "feed heavy" (the same thing goes with stocking levels).


And those feeding choices affect everything - flow needs, skimmer requirements, etc. My tank is barebottom - and has tons of flow. Which means I need to feed heavy, or stuff dies. But when I do feed heavy - things do much better than in my lower flow/lower export/lower food tanks.

And because I'm exporting so much, my nitrates/phosphates are low - which is deceptive - because my corals are getting significant amounts of food because I'm basically just dumping food in.

 

[Sdot]

Hi fellow stick heads! I’ve been seeing a lot about nutrients on this forum lately and was hoping to add my 2 cents and maybe start a meaningful discussion. While I am a firm believer that there are many different ways to run a successful reef tank, and that SPS will thrive with varying nitrate and phosphate levels, I am confused why I see so many people talking about dosing nitrate and phosphate as a solution to SPS issues. I certainly don’t believe you have to have higher nitrate and phosphate to be successful. In fact, my water test this weekend was clear on salifert nitrate and 0ppb on Hanna ULR phosphorus checker and things look really nice. I think in my case it’s feeding my tank very heavily with many different foods and particle sizes so that everything is getting it’s required nutrition to be healthy. I guess I’m just wondering why the conversation is about nitrate and phosphate instead of feeding your reef as a whole and making sure everything is as healthy as possible. I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions on this topic!

I’m an advocate for dosing nutrients. In the past my corals would get lighter in color and then STN until they died. I have tried feeding more, however that would result in other bad things. I don’t agree with the feed more rational. Nitrate is the biproduct of various bacterial activity, just because you feed more may not result in a positive outcome. I’m an example of this…I feed 4 times per day, If I don’t dose nitrates, they bottom out quickly.

On the other hand, dosing gives you more control of the specific nutrient you have in your aquarium to achieve the result you seek. Your tank is gorgeous btw, although your test results may read zero…I can assure you it’s not, I just believe you have reached an equilibrium between nutrients and consumption. That’s the beautiful thing about this hobby…. there are 1000 ways to achieve success. Also I tend to notice tanks full of sps do better with heavy feeding because so many corals are there to consume the "excess". I don't believe someone with a few pieces here and there could getaway with lots of feeding without seeing problematic bacteria/ algae.

Below is a coral that was added to my aquarium about 3 weeks ago.

Same coral about a week ago:

I try to keep my nitrates around 10ppm

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I think a lot of people have trouble understanding how wide the gamut is with feeding. There are people who feed once a week - and its understandably difficult for them to understand what someone who feeds heavy means when they say "feed heavy" (the same thing goes with stocking levels).


And those feeding choices affect everything - flow needs, skimmer requirements, etc. My tank is barebottom - and has tons of flow. Which means I need to feed heavy, or stuff dies. But when I do feed heavy - things do much better than in my lower flow/lower export/lower food tanks.

And because I'm exporting so much, my nitrates/phosphates are low - which is deceptive - because my corals are getting significant amounts of food because I'm basically just dumping food in.

I think that’s a great point. As with everything in this hobby there is a wide range of options and choices for all things. I feel like making more reefers familiar with heavy in heavy out mentality would help eliminate some problems and lead to higher success with SPS. Obviously it’s all relative to the type of tank each individual reefer is keeping but widening the discussion could prove to be helpful.

 

[Smite]

I definitely think you can get better growth at lower N/P. If you are concerned about coloration you could always feed more or get more fish. That’s fun for you and your corals! Lol but seriously this is why I want to make these types of discussions more common in the nutrient conversations.

And here is my tank just after yesterday’s water change.

Gorgeous tank. I’ll be checking out the build thread!

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I’m an advocate for dosing nutrients. In the past my corals would get lighter in color and then STN until they died. I have tried feeding more, however that would result in other bad things. I don’t agree with the feed more rational. Nitrate is the biproduct of various bacterial activity, just because you feed more may not result in a positive outcome. I’m an example of this…I feed 4 times per day, If I don’t dose nitrates, they bottom out quickly.

On the other hand, dosing gives you more control of the specific nutrient you have in your aquarium to achieve the result you seek. Your tank is gorgeous btw, although your test results may read zero…I can assure you it’s not, I just believe you have reached an equilibrium between nutrients and consumption. That’s the beautiful thing about this hobby…. there are 1000 ways to achieve success. Also I tend to notice tanks full of sps do better with heavy feeding because so many corals are there to consume the "excess". I don't believe someone with a few pieces here and there could getaway with lots of feeding without seeing problematic bacteria/ algae.

Below is a coral that was added to my aquarium about 3 weeks ago.

Same coral about a week ago:

I try to keep my nitrates around 10ppm

If I may ask, what sort of negative things did you see with feeding heavier? And as for dosing, I guess I don’t see the point of aiming for a particular N or P value when we don’t really have any context as to what a good value is. I think aiming for closer to the natural ocean parameters is the easiest way to find success, which as you pointed out truly does come in all shapes and sizes.

Thank you for the compliment I appreciate it! However, I do have to disagree about the testing values. If the test kit reads low or 0, then that means I don’t have any residual nitrate or phosphate to detect. That does not mean that there is not nitrogen or phosphorus compounds moving through my system and being constantly taken up or used by the organisms. It just means that the two end products that we like to measure are not available in high enough amounts to detect, which is where I see the difference between heavy in heavy out and dosing N/P.

I do agree that a tank with more corals does better with lots of feeding but I do think it’s all relative. Very nice coral by the way!

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Gorgeous tank. I’ll be checking out the build thread!

Thanks! And I haven’t done a build thread for this tank yet, just the tanks I built for work lol ;Hilarious

 

[Sdot]

If I may ask, what sort of negative things did you see with feeding heavier? And as for dosing, I guess I don’t see the point of aiming for a particular N or P value when we don’t really have any context as to what a good value is. I think aiming for closer to the natural ocean parameters is the easiest way to find success, which as you pointed out truly does come in all shapes and sizes.

Thank you for the compliment I appreciate it! However, I do have to disagree about the testing values. If the test kit reads low or 0, then that means I don’t have any residual nitrate or phosphate to detect. That does not mean that there is not nitrogen or phosphorus compounds moving through my system and being constantly taken up or used by the organisms. It just means that the two end products that we like to measure are not available in high enough amounts to detect, which is where I see the difference between heavy in heavy out and dosing N/P.

I do agree that a tank with more corals does better with lots of feeding but I do think it’s all relative. Very nice coral by the way!

In my case if I feed more…. i get cyano. I still get them from time to time now, but I know how to remedy it (just means my P is out of wack in comparison to my N). Regarding your test results: Often, we hear on this very site, some aquarist has tons of hair algae in their tanks, yet when they test nothing is odd about the result…. it’s because the nutrients are bound in the algae they are complaining about (Same applies to fuges and algae scrubbers). Your test results are the very same concept.

Regarding duplicating nature, I think that applies only to certain measurable and understood circumstances. I say this because unlike nature, we have closed systems and because of that fact we must do things differently…like having slightly elevated nutrients so that our corals don’t starve to death.

Lastly, you made a statement about aiming for N or P levels. Great argument and I understand the point. In my case I tend to get the best results in my tank when my nitrates are near the double digits and Phos is less than.1 but above zero. Every tank is different and in a year I might be in your camp of finding the balance of reading zero (It’s not really zero but ok) or in the camp of keeping nitrates in the twenties. What I do know is corals require food…that’s comes in many forms and N+P does feed corals….

 

[joshwaggs]

In my case if I feed more…. i get cyano. I still get them from time to time now, but I know how to remedy it (just means my P is out of wack in comparison to my N). Regarding your test results: Often, we hear on this very site, some aquarist has tons of hair algae in their tanks, yet when they test nothing is odd about the result…. it’s because the nutrients are bound in the algae they are complaining about (Same applies to fuges and algae scrubbers). Your test results are the very same concept.

Regarding duplicating nature, I think that applies only to certain measurable and understood circumstances. I say this because unlike nature, we have closed systems and because of that fact we must do things differently…like having slightly elevated nutrients so that our corals don’t starve to death.

Lastly, you made a statement about aiming for N or P levels. Great argument and I understand the point. In my case I tend to get the best results in my tank when my nitrates are near the double digits and Phos is less than.1 but above zero. Every tank is different and in a year I might be in your camp of finding the balance of reading zero (It’s not really zero but ok) or in the camp of keeping nitrates in the twenties. What I do know is corals require food…that’s comes in many forms and N+P does feed corals….

Do you have a bare bottom? If not, Im guessing the cyano is growing in a dead spot where sand is grabbing dropped food. Not to sound like Im saying you are wrong, though. Just a guess for why you get cyano when you feed more.

 

[jda]

I think that everybody knows that I am in the "availability over residual levels" camp. Feed a lot, export a lot and keep residuals reasonable, but low (not zero). Ammonium and ammonia are the prize to get nitrogen to SPS, not nitrate. A little bit of P is good, but not too much.

2sunny has a wonderful tank and has also posted lately about having very low residual levels but high throughput/availability.

I think that most people who have had N and P raise without dosing on the back end have seen the effect of more availability, not from having higher residuals. Their tanks would be just as good with the same feeding, but more fuge (or whatever). In nearly all cases, the availability does the heavy lifting.

Regarding low detection levels of nitrate, this is hard... my tank shows "clear" on test kits, but I have .1 to .2 on an ICP test. .1 to .2 is not zero and it is a world away. True zero is an issue, but you nearly always have to use chemicals or media to get there. My sandbed, which can chew through nitrates like crazy, always leaves enough to keep the equilibrium going forward.

Having higher levels of N and P can do other things for the tank, if you need them. They can poison dinos, matting bacteria and diatoms at levels that are not so high for most corals - some acropora will suffer at these levels, but most people just do with them and chalk them up to "too hard," which is smart. They also slow down coralline growth at higher levels, which is a plus to some. This is not the same thing as being ideal for SPS... but it does need to be incorporated into a whole-tank strategy.

You can get some deeper saturation with nigher N and P levels on some corals, but not others. Some acropora will have less differentiation in the colors if they are multi-colored, but not all. Most acropora with different colored growth tips will look better with lower N and P, but, again, not all.

I wish that more people understood that N and P are not food and are building blocks. I wish that more people understood that SPS cannot process nitrate without first turning it back into ammonia/ammonium at quite a cost of energy to the coral (we are in the SPS forum after all even though a few other corals can use no3 straight up). I wish that more people understood that dosing P is just binding more to your rock and sand with a very small amount ending up in the water column and that this could be a huge problem down the road. I wish that more people understood that lighting with the zoox making sugars is what truly feeds the coral and if they spend as much time worrying about wider spectrum (quality) over N and P that their corals would likely be a lot happier in most cases.

 

[jda]

I do not care for a lot of BRS videos because they are more infomercial than real science, but check out their video on Zeovit, which is a heavy import and heavy export system - like 1:45 to about 3:30. They basically say that the tank has more "nutrients" going through it than any other tank that they have, but the backend numbers stay low. This is the goal, IMO.

I hate that they say Ultra Low since this tank is probably just like Natural Seawater and not Ultra Low. You usually have to use chemicals and media and not feed a bunch to get Ultra Low. IMO, natural seawater levels are just natural, not low or ultra low.

BTW - I do not recommend Zeo unless you are super into dosing and testing A LOT. However, it is an example of how high availability and low residuals do a great job.

 

[joshwaggs]

I think that everybody knows that I am in the "availability over residual levels" camp. Feed a lot, export a lot and keep residuals reasonable, but low (not zero). Ammonium and ammonia are the prize to get nitrogen to SPS, not nitrate. A little bit of P is good, but not too much.

2sunny has a wonderful tank and has also posted lately about having very low residual levels but high throughput/availability.

I think that most people who have had N and P raise without dosing on the back end have seen the effect of more availability, not from having higher residuals. Their tanks would be just as good with the same feeding, but more fuge (or whatever). In nearly all cases, the availability does the heavy lifting.

Regarding low detection levels of nitrate, this is hard... my tank shows "clear" on test kits, but I have .1 to .2 on an ICP test. .1 to .2 is not zero and it is a world away. True zero is an issue, but you nearly always have to use chemicals or media to get there. My sandbed, which can chew through nitrates like crazy, always leaves enough to keep the equilibrium going forward.

Having higher levels of N and P can do other things for the tank, if you need them. They can poison dinos, matting bacteria and diatoms at levels that are not so high for most corals - some acropora will suffer at these levels, but most people just do with them and chalk them up to "too hard," which is smart. They also slow down coralline growth at higher levels, which is a plus to some. This is not the same thing as being ideal for SPS... but it does need to be incorporated into a whole-tank strategy.

You can get some deeper saturation with nigher N and P levels on some corals, but not others. Some acropora will have less differentiation in the colors if they are multi-colored, but not all. Most acropora with different colored growth tips will look better with lower N and P, but, again, not all.

I wish that more people understood that N and P are not food and are building blocks. I wish that more people understood that SPS cannot process nitrate without first turning it back into ammonia/ammonium at quite a cost of energy to the coral (we are in the SPS forum after all even though a few other corals can use no3 straight up). I wish that more people understood that dosing P is just binding more to your rock and sand with a very small amount ending up in the water column and that this could be a huge problem down the road. I wish that more people understood that lighting with the zoox making sugars is what truly feeds the coral and if they spend as much time worrying about wider spectrum (quality) over N and P that their corals would likely be a lot happier in most cases.

Can you explain this like Im 5? I think you were saying feed more, but have enough bacteria to handle it?
What do you mean by availability and residuals?

 

[jda]

Residual levels are the easiest - the values on the test kits of your nitrate and phosphate. These get focus since people can put numbers to them. They are also fools gold in most cases, like so many other simple things in our life... light weight of a human where one person weighing 225 is nothing but pure muscle and athleticism but is a lot of fat on others.

Availability is what what "in process" that the corals can use before it becomes nitrate at the end of the cycle. This is mostly in the form of ammonia/ammonium that the fish (and other things) have as waste product. This is nearly impossible to measure. It is a little more complicated than this, but this will do for now...

Bacteria can handle the no3 on the backend if you have a lot of good rock or sand that can harbor anoxic bacteria - these convert nitrate into nitrogen gas and keep no3 at good levels. Sometimes rock alone is not enough, but sometimes it is - just depends on the tank and the maturity of the rock. A 3 inch sandbed can usually take care of no3 in nearly all situations if it is mature and mostly left alone - there is some maintenance that is needed periodically which is more than we need to get into here. The new paradigm of starting tanks with sterile rock and sand mean that it can take years for them to act like real live rock from the ocean - their pores are usually bound with terrestrial organics and the bacteria have no place to live.

Phosphate is harder since nothing in the tank converts it to gas. Aragonite (sand and rock) binds phosphate and will act like a buffer (good) at low levels, but can also act as a reservoir (bad) at higher levels. You will need to grow macro algae, use GFO or other media to keep it low - water changes work, but are not efficient to lower P. It is important to understand the relationship between aragonite and phosphate and how much that it can bind - nearly all dosed phosphate ends up in the rock and sand.

There is another way that corals CAN gets some building blocks, but it is not clear that it happens in our tanks. Amino Acids. Amino Acids can be absorbed through SPS skin. This does not mean that dosing bottles Amino Acids will work. They are also used by nearly all single cell organisms on surfaces and in the water column. First, we have no idea which aminos are in a supplement - some are better than others. Second, it is losing math equation for the SPS to get some... the bacteria, single cell algae and other microscopic things in the water column and on the surfaces or the sand and rock will all want the amino acids that you are trying to give to your SPS. It is not likely that the SPS get much. While it is not likely that Amino Acid supplements do much for the SPS, the also do not seem to really hurt and maybe some of those microorganisms get caught by the corals (not in their polyps, but in their slime coat where they are dissolved and their energy/nutrients gathered). In the end, it probably does not hurt to dose some Amino Acids if your residual levels of N and P are in control, but you are likely hurting if your N and P are already high.

 

[joshwaggs]

Residual levels are the easiest - the values on the test kits of your nitrate and phosphate. These get focus since people can put numbers to them. They are also fools gold in most cases, like so many other simple things in our life... light weight of a human where one person weighing 225 is nothing but pure muscle and athleticism but is a lot of fat on others.

Availability is what what "in process" that the corals can use before it becomes nitrate at the end of the cycle. This is mostly in the form of ammonia/ammonium that the fish (and other things) have as waste product. This is nearly impossible to measure. It is a little more complicated than this, but this will do for now...

Bacteria can handle the no3 on the backend if you have a lot of good rock or sand that can harbor anoxic bacteria - these convert nitrate into nitrogen gas and keep no3 at good levels. Sometimes rock alone is not enough, but sometimes it is - just depends on the tank and the maturity of the rock. A 3 inch sandbed can usually take care of no3 in nearly all situations if it is mature and mostly left alone - there is some maintenance that is needed periodically which is more than we need to get into here. The new paradigm of starting tanks with sterile rock and sand mean that it can take years for them to act like real live rock from the ocean - their pores are usually bound with terrestrial organics and the bacteria have no place to live.

Phosphate is harder since nothing in the tank converts it to gas. Aragonite (sand and rock) binds phosphate and will act like a buffer (good) at low levels, but can also act as a reservoir (bad) at higher levels. You will need to grow macro algae, use GFO or other media to keep it low - water changes work, but are not efficient to lower P. It is important to understand the relationship between aragonite and phosphate and how much that it can bind - nearly all dosed phosphate ends up in the rock and sand.

There is another way that corals CAN gets some building blocks, but it is not clear that it happens in our tanks. Amino Acids. Amino Acids can be absorbed through SPS skin. This does not mean that dosing bottles Amino Acids will work. They are also used by nearly all single cell organisms on surfaces and in the water column. First, we have no idea which aminos are in a supplement - some are better than others. Second, it is losing math equation for the SPS to get some... the bacteria, single cell algae and other microscopic things in the water column and on the surfaces or the sand and rock will all want the amino acids that you are trying to give to your SPS. It is not likely that the SPS get much. While it is not likely that Amino Acid supplements do much for the SPS, the also do not seem to really hurt and maybe some of those microorganisms get caught by the corals (not in their polyps, but in their slime coat where they are dissolved and their energy/nutrients gathered). In the end, it probably does not hurt to dose some Amino Acids if your residual levels of N and P are in control, but you are likely hurting if your N and P are already high.

That is a lot of good knowledge. I knew the anoxic bacteria part, but I had no idea that dosed phosphate binds to rocks.

With the amino acids, have you heard of this one: https://willowsreef.com/product/amino-feast-8ozz/

It was developed by a PhD that studies corals and how what they uptake. It only has the amino acids that are specific to coral, and the ingredients are on it!

 

[jda]

You can put me down as one of the supplement skeptics that have not ever seen one that did much in almost three decades of reefing. I am not saying that I have seen or used them all, but I have tried a bunch. I have no use for any of them and I can say with almost certainty that none of them are necessary at all. To each their own...

I also forgot to mention that hosts can recycle most things like N, P and aminos once they have gathered them for their symbionts. This means that it is likely that corals only need new stuff to grow, not just to maintain - this helps to explain why just a trace of building blocks are necessary. This has been debated by some, but also highly supported by others including some highly respected marine PhD folks. In addition to this resource below which talks about dinoflagellates inside of hosts, this recycling is mentioned in a few coral books that I own.

Together with an efficient recycling of coral metabolic waste products within the holobiont, this symbiosis thus enables efficient utilization of nitrogen compounds from surrounding seawater.

Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?

Corals are animals that form close mutualistic associations with endosymbiotic photosynthetic algae of the genus Symbiodinium. Together they provide t…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Brandon McHenry]

In my case if I feed more…. i get cyano. I still get them from time to time now, but I know how to remedy it (just means my P is out of wack in comparison to my N). Regarding your test results: Often, we hear on this very site, some aquarist has tons of hair algae in their tanks, yet when they test nothing is odd about the result…. it’s because the nutrients are bound in the algae they are complaining about (Same applies to fuges and algae scrubbers). Your test results are the very same concept.

Regarding duplicating nature, I think that applies only to certain measurable and understood circumstances. I say this because unlike nature, we have closed systems and because of that fact we must do things differently…like having slightly elevated nutrients so that our corals don’t starve to death.

Lastly, you made a statement about aiming for N or P levels. Great argument and I understand the point. In my case I tend to get the best results in my tank when my nitrates are near the double digits and Phos is less than.1 but above zero. Every tank is different and in a year I might be in your camp of finding the balance of reading zero (It’s not really zero but ok) or in the camp of keeping nitrates in the twenties. What I do know is corals require food…that’s comes in many forms and N+P does feed corals….

Interesting to hear you get cyano. I know cyano likes to attach to organic material and break it down under the mat. I definitely agree that algae issues can mask over feeding or lack of proper filtration issues but I I feel the principle behind the testing can be debated. That’s neither here nor there.

Nature is definitely a good starting point and it’s certainly impossible to completely replicate it in every way. I’m still not sold on the idea that corals use N/P as food. I think the fact that there are a wealth of tanks that run NSW N/P and dont have starving corals shows the value of a heavy in heavy out system. As I said before there are plenty of ways to run a reef and what works for some doesn’t always work for others, but I do feel like feeding is left out of the equation more often than not and I do think that it could be a helpful option for many reefers. This type of discussion is what I feel moves the hobby forward!