Nutrients too low?

[ntayler]

So I have about a 180 gal total system running since April ish, still a very new tank. Started with all dry rock, mostly the purple Walt smith stuff, and some nice previously used (dry for many years) rock.

My PO4 got up to about .45 initially, so I started running gfo. PO4 went down over about a month to 0.00 (Hanna checker, not the ulr unfortunately). I thought great, I will take my gfo offline and start adding some easy corals and manage my phosphate with a small amount of gfo as needed.

Well PO4 never went up....at all...still 0.00. Same thing with nitrates, although my last few no3 tests I have maybe seen a reading (about 0.2 ppm via sideways salifert test).

Other params have always been very steady, I dose a small amount of brs 2 part via brs pumps and controller

Today's readings:

Temp 79
Calc 450
Alk 8.35
Ph 8.2
PO4 0.00
No3 0.2 maybe

Corals have never done great and a few bleached a couple months ago, which I attributed to uber low nutrients and maybe too high temp (was steadily between 81 and 82, which someone told me was too high, although I have read that many had had success at that temp).

I have been feeding heavily for the stock that I have, which is still quite light but ever increasing. Fish all very happy, most corals are doing ok, but I'm just not getting the growth or color that I should be. I am confused how my PO4 just won't increase, does not seem possible.

Lighting is 3x kessil 360's which I have been slowly increasing intensity (30" deep tank).

It has been 3 weeks since my last water change, I was doing them every 2 weeks until recently.

Should I add a phosphate and nitrate supplement? Not sure what to do.

 

[ntayler]

Also Salinity has always been 1.025, and always use rodi

 

[DarkSky]

Try targeting 5ppm NO3 and 0.03 P04.

 

[ntayler]

I would love to, not sure how to make them increase

 

[YumaMan]

My parameters are nearly the same as yours, but my corals are growing and have good color. Try using less GFO, not none, and feed small daily amounts of phytoplankton, rotifers, and oyster eggs. I also use Fuel that has amino acids and trace elements.

I would simply be patient and wait. Try not to change things too much for a while and aim for consistency. Sometimes corals have a growth spurt after they are thoroughly acclimated in their environment. As you say, its still a very new tank.

 

[DarkSky]

Search dosing stump remover (NO3) and monosodium phosphate (PO4).

 

[Martin Kuhn]

My parameters are nearly the same as yours, but my corals are growing and have good color. Try using less GFO, not none, and feed small daily amounts of phytoplankton, rotifers, and oyster eggs. I also use Fuel that has amino acids and trace elements.

I would simply be patient and wait. Try not to change things too much for a while and aim for consistency. Sometimes corals have a growth spurt after they are thoroughly acclimated in their environment. As you say, its still a very new tank.

+1
Things take their time ......

Most of our test kits indicate 0, even if there are little amounts of N3, PO4.
Seems that your tank is low nutrient which is not bad @all but perfect for sps growth.
Depending on from which nutrient levels your corals came from (maybe from a higher one..) they have to acclimate themselves.

The only thing you simply have to be aware if your system is close to 0 nutrients is RTN. In case you see any signs you have to react fast and dose amino acids immediately. Have them available !

You have low N3/PO4 values even if not "removing artificially" by PO4 granulate, macro algae refugium etc. good job!
Many reefers would like to achieve this.
That proofs that your tanks micro biology is working fine.

I personally would run even without GFO.

If you don't do already: measure also Mg (1 time a month)..... just to be sure that this one is ok also

 

[ntayler]

I guess I shouldn't complain about low nutrients, just thought it was strange that PO4 still isn't detectable after taking gfo offline 3 months ago. I have some monti caps and encrusting that is actually doing well, so maybe I will try some other Sps. Thanks all for the replies, I'm hoping as I keep adding fish I can get a slightly higher nutrient level that the lps will appreciate more

 

[Larry L]

@Mike Paletta and @sanjay have some interesting anecdotal evidence about starting tanks with exclusively dry rock, and having corals fade and die over the course of a few weeks, even though all water params look fine: https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

I had the same experience with my tank. It took a good 9 or 10 months before anything I put in there started doing ok, not sure if it was a matter of building up the right bacterial populations or what.

 

[ntayler]

Interesting, thank you for that. Well I will ride it out and see what happens. I haven't actually had anything die. One favia still looks pretty miserable, others that were bleached have a tiny bit of new growth. I will target feed my corals more often until I have more bio load

 

[Potatohead]

@Mike Paletta and @sanjay have some interesting anecdotal evidence about starting tanks with exclusively dry rock, and having corals fade and die over the course of a few weeks, even though all water params look fine: https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

I had the same experience with my tank. It took a good 9 or 10 months before anything I put in there started doing ok, not sure if it was a matter of building up the right bacterial populations or what.

I have the same experience starting a tank with dry rock.

My tank is also very low nutrient and I am having trouble getting them up. Color and growth both seem ok though so I'm not too worried about it.

 

[Justin Swinney]

@Mike Paletta and @sanjay have some interesting anecdotal evidence about starting tanks with exclusively dry rock, and having corals fade and die over the course of a few weeks, even though all water params look fine: https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

I had the same experience with my tank. It took a good 9 or 10 months before anything I put in there started doing ok, not sure if it was a matter of building up the right bacterial populations or what.

I have a similar experience every sps in my tank up till now has died they looked great for 2 weeks or so and then gone. I started with all dry rock. But my one stylo has stopped bleaching and started growing back. I'm right at 9-10 months running and recently added a piece of rock from another reefers tank with a favia on it so I'm curious now

 

[ntayler]

So just an update, still confused btw

So I PO4 went up to .14 over the course of 2 weeks, first time I had seen PO4 since April when the rock was leaching. Not sure why it went up. In the last 2 weeks it has gone to .12, .10, .08, and today 0.00...

I don’t get it, nothing has changed, I’m not running gfo and haven’t been for a long time. I’m not even running carbon. I don’t run filter socks.

Also I dosed the tank up to 5 ppm NO3 about 2 weeks ago using stump remover, and it has held steady in the last 3 tests since.

My livestock includes 2 clowns, melanarus wrasse, algae blenny, diamond goby, pj cardinal, bengai cardinal, royal gramma, flame angel, yellow tang, hippo tang, 2 cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp, 4 fire fish, 2 chromis...think that’s it

My riccordias are looking good, although no reproduction. Plays, common shrooms look ok, rbta looks good, even my Australian Lobo looks good.

but colors and growth are terrible on favia, war coral, chalices, and monti’s.

I feed nori almost daily, and LRS, Nls, algae pellets daily (mostly LRS, rotate the other 2 in).

I’m at a loss, would really like my corals to look the way they should, it’s why I got into the hobby in the first place. I get that the tank is still new, but after 9 months I would expect things to be doing better.

Btw salinity 1.025, alk always 8.6, calc always 440-460, mag always 1380.

Heeeeelp

 

[DarkSky]

How much are you feeding? If your PO4 is dropping like it was, something is consuming it. Dose or feed more.

 

[ntayler]

Yeah I will try to dose PO4, not sure why it spiked to begin with.

Not really sure how to quantify the amount I feed, in general about 4, 1/2 inch chunks of LRS daily, quarter to half a sheet of Nori, large pinches of pellets when I feed those. Fish all look healthy, after feeding many of them have fat bellies so I know I’m not under feeding

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So just an update, still confused btw

So I PO4 went up to .14 over the course of 2 weeks, first time I had seen PO4 since April when the rock was leaching. Not sure why it went up. In the last 2 weeks it has gone to .12, .10, .08, and today 0.00...

I don’t get it, nothing has changed, I’m not running gfo and haven’t been for a long time. I’m not even running carbon. I don’t run filter socks.

Also I dosed the tank up to 5 ppm NO3 about 2 weeks ago using stump remover, and it has held steady in the last 3 tests since.

My livestock includes 2 clowns, melanarus wrasse, algae blenny, diamond goby, pj cardinal, bengai cardinal, royal gramma, flame angel, yellow tang, hippo tang, 2 cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp, 4 fire fish, 2 chromis...think that’s it

My riccordias are looking good, although no reproduction. Plays, common shrooms look ok, rbta looks good, even my Australian Lobo looks good.

but colors and growth are terrible on favia, war coral, chalices, and monti’s.

I feed nori almost daily, and LRS, Nls, algae pellets daily (mostly LRS, rotate the other 2 in).

I’m at a loss, would really like my corals to look the way they should, it’s why I got into the hobby in the first place. I get that the tank is still new, but after 9 months I would expect things to be doing better.

Btw salinity 1.025, alk always 8.6, calc always 440-460, mag always 1380.

Heeeeelp

The phosphate checker has an uncertainty of +/- 0.04 ppm, so those values ranging from 0.00 to 0.12 may not reflect a whole lot of actual change (although it might). Perhaps it is only varying from 0.04 to 0.08 ppm.

Color is now terrible in what way? Pale? Brown?

 

[ntayler]

Yeah I get the error/uncertainty, in hindsight I really wished I got the ULR, I may soon. Colors on LPS and montis are pale/bleached mostly. Some terribly, some not as bad, none as good as when I got them.

I’ve had a small hammer and small torch frag wither and die. My zoas look ok, but I’m not getting much growth.

I’ve had no hair algae in the DT, very little cyano a few months back, and the small amount of chaeto in my fuge is doing nothing (although initially it grew). I clean the glass once or twice a week due to film algae.

Based on all those factors I think I’ve just had low nutrient levels. Drives me crazy, a buddy of mine who has given me a lot of my frags, has a beautiful reef, perfect vibrant colors, and he hasn’t checked parameters in years, and only does 3-6 month water changes.

He keeps telling me to be patient, that it’s still a new tank and I totally get that, but with good water quality and numbers I feel as though I should be getting decent results.

Thanks all for your help btw! Love this place!

 

[A-A-ron11]

It was great to read your story and the experiences of Mike Paletta and Sanjay as well. These stories mirror mine own but with the major difference that my bioload is also low. I setup my current aquarium (62gal display~80ish gal system volume) in July with all dry rock and live sand. I started the tank with an initial dose of bacteria as well. After 6 months the coralline algae is finally taking off but the only SPS coral I've been successful in keeping is a Bubblegum digital that after receding ~50% has finally started to grow slowly (the color is just ok). All other SPS corals have either slowly receded and died or all almost dead. I am successful in keeping all LPS corals but I have to heavily feed them but are otherwise pale. I've suspected low nutrients to be the issue since there are no fish in the tank currently which is a subject I'll elaborate on below. The tanks parameters are quite stable:
8.2 dKH
Calcium 425
pH 8.0-8.1 (high CO2 in room)
Nitrates 0 ppm
Phosphates 0 ppm.
Salinity 35ppt

... and the tank is controlled/monitored by an Apex Neptune controller and I dose 2 part. The only filtration on the system is reef octopus skimmer (only run at night) and a small fuge (only lit at night). I have 2 clowns in QT that seem to have a persistent case of intestinal worms that will be going in as soon as they're better. I have tons of various species of amphipods, too many flatworms (the photosynthesizing variety - not AEFW - they persisted through a flatworm exit treatment), some snails, a few hermits and a pistol shrimp all doing well. The tank appears to be turning around ever so slightly but all the corals are still pale. I started dosing ELOS amino acids knowing my nutrients were low which I think helped nudge the tank in the right direction. I'm feeding a decent amount daily to the corals and shrimp so as to try and keep some nutrients consistently being processed by the tank. Which I'm slowly increasing because I'm not seeing nutrients come up yet. Anyhow, I just thought I'd share my similar story and say thanks as well!

 

[gurthystag]

I have had the same exact issue. Careful soon your tank will find equilibrium and your nutrients will shoot up drastically So I think this issue you have is the result of dry rock. I have had many tanks over the years. One thing I've noticed is rock works like a sponge it's collects phosphate or if you use old live rock in a new system it will release phosphate. It all depends. Eventually when bacterial levels reach a favorable level and your rock is fully organic absorbed the tank will balance out or at least be more easily dialed to a desired level I couldn't keep an acro alive for over a year with dry rock and now my tank is full of thriving acro.

 

[gurthystag]

I have had the same exact issue. Careful soon your tank will find equilibrium and your nutrients will shoot up drastically So I think this issue you have is the result of dry rock. I have had many tanks over the years. One thing I've noticed is rock works like a sponge it's collects phosphate or if you use old live rock in a new system it will release phosphate. It all depends. Eventually when bacterial levels reach a favorable level and your rock is fully organic absorbed the tank will balance out or at least be more easily dialed to a desired level I couldn't keep an acro alive for over a year with dry rock and now my tank is full of thriving acro