Oh man...is this what I think it is?

corey.nolta

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Noticed the white bumps on "Jake" today, two in the middle, and two in his black spot (pictured), and then one in the middle on the other side. Picture isn't the best, but I gotta say it's tough photographing these little buggers.

The last addition to the tank was Jake himself, along with a coral beauty -- both coming from the same tank (local member getting out of the hobby). This was about eight months ago. There also has been no changes what so ever made to the tank since January. I was hoping it was just bubbles, as every now and then some micro bubbles will stick to his slime coat, but alas, they are not bubbles. It's hard to tell in the photo, but where the bumps are, there is missing scales/tissue. He still eats like a champ and still has his awesome personality!
All other fish seem to be just fine.

In the 2 years I've had the tank, I've never had any fish show any signs of a parasites. Last month I did have a blue chromis go missing. Never did find him. Pretty sure he died somewhere in the rock work. I had a wrasse that got too aggressive and was bullying the chromis' pretty bad. I'm assuming that's why he died (wrasse was moved to his own tank).

I really don't like the thought of trying to catch the **** head until I know for sure it's ich. It if it ich, do I treat just him or do I try and catch all the fish and treat them all at once? I do have two tanks and enough equipment that I could set up QT tanks if need be, but if I treat all the fish at the same time, I don't think the two tanks would be big enough. The tanks are a 20L and a 10.
Fish:
Foxface x1
Clownfish x4
Chromis x2
4stripe Damsel x2
Coral beauty x1
Blue headed wrasse x1 (already in the 20L with some frags)

Thoughts? Suggestions? Help!!

File_000 (2).jpeg
 
Start feeding Metroplex and some vitamin M with some focus and I will call in the #reefsquad for extra ID
 
Not saying it is Ich but if it is....

If one fish in your tank has been exposed, then they all have been and would all need to be treated. I would also point out that if you haven't added ANYTHING to your tank, including coral, then you have had Ich in your tank for a long time. You would have been performing Ich management without realizing it. I recommend reading this.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/
 
Ich eradication vs. Ich management

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire. ;)

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:
  • Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
  • Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
  • Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
  • Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
  • No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.
A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him:Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.
 
I had ich in the system and add the Metroplex and vitamin M to my frozen food along with seachems focus to bind the metroplex to the food so that the fish ingest the food.
IMG_3256.JPG
 
Start feeding Metroplex and some vitamin M with some focus and I will call in the #reefsquad for extra ID
I'll have to look into these and order some tonight!

Not saying it is Ich but if it is....

If one fish in your tank has been exposed, then they all have been and would all need to be treated. I would also point out that if you haven't added ANYTHING to your tank, including coral, then you have had Ich in your tank for a long time. You would have been performing Ich management without realizing it. I recommend reading this.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/
That was my initial thinking, in regards to the ich being in my tank for who knows how long. I read through the above post and really the only thing that applies under the management section is the diet. My tank has always been feed a variety of foods through the week. Pellets, flake, nori, and frozen meats. Always been good at the husbandry, although water conditions have never been "pristine". I have always had a slightly elevated nitrate and phosphate issue, but never sky high and always stable at ~15ppm / .025ppm. The foxface and coral beauty were the last livestock (fish, inverts, corals, etc) that were added to my tank. Eight months ago. The ONLY thing that has been added to my tank in the past eight months were two powerheads and both were purchased brand new.

If I set up the tanks for QT, will the semi large foxface be okay in a 20L for that long without being stressed the entire time? Seems counter productive. If so, could I add a few smaller fish in with him and split the livestock between the two tanks? I have enough extra equipment that I haven't used in over a year to set up two systems, just unsure on the current tank sizes I have.
 
I'll have to look into these and order some tonight!


That was my initial thinking, in regards to the ich being in my tank for who knows how long. I read through the above post and really the only thing that applies under the management section is the diet. My tank has always been feed a variety of foods through the week. Pellets, flake, nori, and frozen meats. The foxface and coral beauty were the last livestock (fish, inverts, corals, etc) that were added to my tank. Eight months ago. The ONLY thing that has been added to my tank in the past eight months were two powerheads and both were purchased brand new.

If I set up the tanks for QT, will the semi large foxface be okay in a 20L for that long without being stressed the entire time? Seems counter productive. If so, could I add a few smaller fish in with him and split the livestock between the two tanks? I have enough extra equipment that I haven't used in over a year to set up two systems, just unsure on the current tank sizes I have.

usually they are local at the local fish store (LFS) both are seachem products. :)
 
My LFS is a very shoty PetCo. I am 90% sure they do not have these products. I've looked for a few other additives before, with absolutely no luck and these do not look/sound familiar :-/
 
That's ich. Ich management may be an option. If not treating all of the fish and running the tank fallow and treating all new fish preventatively is a high stakes strategy and in today's environment with bad strains out there and velvet it's just a matter of if, not when, it catches up to you.
 
I'm not too thrilled about the idea of buying another tank as I already have an abundance of extra tanks and equipment. I do have a 20L and a 10. Could I split up 11 fish between the two tanks for the duration of QT or is that just way too small for that many fish? I could go pick up a 40 breeder for $40 with the $1/gallon sale, but I really have no desire to add even more stuff to my collection.
 
If it is Ich, the wrasse you moved to the 20l is probably infected. Also the frags in that tank can be infected. I'm not an expert but that is my understanding.
 
Noticed the white bumps on "Jake" today, two in the middle, and two in his black spot (pictured), and then one in the middle on the other side. Picture isn't the best, but I gotta say it's tough photographing these little buggers.

The last addition to the tank was Jake himself, along with a coral beauty -- both coming from the same tank (local member getting out of the hobby). This was about eight months ago. There also has been no changes what so ever made to the tank since January. I was hoping it was just bubbles, as every now and then some micro bubbles will stick to his slime coat, but alas, they are not bubbles. It's hard to tell in the photo, but where the bumps are, there is missing scales/tissue. He still eats like a champ and still has his awesome personality!
All other fish seem to be just fine.

In the 2 years I've had the tank, I've never had any fish show any signs of a parasites. Last month I did have a blue chromis go missing. Never did find him. Pretty sure he died somewhere in the rock work. I had a wrasse that got too aggressive and was bullying the chromis' pretty bad. I'm assuming that's why he died (wrasse was moved to his own tank).

I really don't like the thought of trying to catch the **** head until I know for sure it's ich. It if it ich, do I treat just him or do I try and catch all the fish and treat them all at once? I do have two tanks and enough equipment that I could set up QT tanks if need be, but if I treat all the fish at the same time, I don't think the two tanks would be big enough. The tanks are a 20L and a 10.
Fish:
Foxface x1
Clownfish x4
Chromis x2
4stripe Damsel x2
Coral beauty x1
Blue headed wrasse x1 (already in the 20L with some frags)

Thoughts? Suggestions? Help!!

File_000 (2).jpeg
Ill be completely honest, looks like detritus or sand particals. I freaked put myself for a while thinking i had ich although i basically tortured my poor fish through qt for over 3 months including corals. My tangs always kick up sand on eachother, and at the time will look like ich, but soon to fall off about a half hour later. Thats a great photo though
 
I'm not too thrilled about the idea of buying another tank as I already have an abundance of extra tanks and equipment. I do have a 20L and a 10. Could I split up 11 fish between the two tanks for the duration of QT or is that just way too small for that many fish? I could go pick up a 40 breeder for $40 with the $1/gallon sale, but I really have no desire to add even more stuff to my collection.
I'm not a fan of ich management, but you have been pretty good at it without even trying. Fortunately, ich tends to be a slower killer than something like velvet so you don't need to rush into anything. I really like @jsker 's advice and would try supplementing food to see if you can boost their immune system.
Just keep a very close eye on things and see if their conditions get worse. However, treating one fish separately for ich will not accomplish anything since ich will still be present in the tank.
 
Hi there!! How long have the dots been on him? I'm thinking it looks like it could be sand. If it is, then they will probably be gone by now. If it's ick, then they will be in the same spot for several days before dropping off.

If it's ick, then I strongly recommend getting all the fish out -including the wrasse that was removed and all fish that are in that tank with him- and running them through QT. That 40 breeder sounds like the best bet for that many fish. An oversized HOB filter, decent heater and an ammonia alert badge.... oh and plenty of pvc elbows for hiding places.
 
I'll reply to all questions once I get home. But I don't believe it's sand. It doesn't come across in the photo but where each spot is, there is what I would assume is tissue loss. Plus my sand / substrate is black. :(
 
Ich eradication vs. Ich management

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire. ;)

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:
  • Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
  • Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
  • Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
  • Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
  • No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.
A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him:Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.
HERBTANA always works for me, 7 days of treatment , ich is gone and corals are unaffected. The parasite may still be in the tank somewhere , but the fish can fight it off
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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