Only Care About Reliability - APEX or GHL

[robbyg]

Personally, given the choice between the 2. I'm gonna stick with my apex out of sheer convenience.

Yep the Apex is really convenient. I don't know who wrote their Fusion Software and the App but that person is the one that makes everything else almost tolerable.

Any chance @Sisterlimonpot I could convince you to switch

 

[Ditto]

As a person who uses both, I believe has one of the best threads comparing the two, a major update to that thread in the works the feeling I still have even now three years later is why did it take me so long. I kick myself still for not doing it sooner.

The GHL product been rock solid no issues of it crashing. I can not stress the reliability of GHL product it is night and day compared to Neptune Systems products Yes I have 1 2016 unit left that I use to help others switch out. WI have helped dozens of people switch out, and all of them are 100% happier after the switch out. I explain what they will loose when they do the switch out for example events based on power utilization, and they are like what ever I can live without it if the stability of the unit is what you say it is.

 

[LadyTang2]

Thanks for the comments, I really just am after some of the basic stuff like the powerbar and doser. I am tempted to save money and skip kh director/trident. I see calcium reactors that are not constantly adjusting feeding amazing tanks. So how big really is the benefit of these testers vs just doing a once weekly manual and setting a doser to dose the same amount for a week? Tanks after a year usually have pretty constant demand right?

 

[User1]

Thanks for the comments, I really just am after some of the basic stuff like the powerbar and doser. I am tempted to save money and skip kh director/trident. I see calcium reactors that are not constantly adjusting feeding amazing tanks. So how big really is the benefit of these testers vs just doing a once weekly manual and setting a doser to dose the same amount for a week? Tanks after a year usually have pretty constant demand right?

Automated testing saves the hobbyist time. How much time depends on their testing frequency. If it is once a month I wouldn't bother. If it is once a week I probably wouldn't bother. If it is daily I would bother. If it is a couple times a week? I would bother. It just depends.

What they do offer you is a visual representation of what is being tested and its respected frequency. If that is important to you great. Get one. If it isn't then there is no need.

Here is the deal. Honest to goodness truth. Before automated testing and controllers hobbyists had successful tanks. They still have successful tanks. There are successful tanks with skimmers, without skimmers, with MH, with T5's, with combo of all three together.

A controller is not needed. It is both a monitor and a task scheduler. Beyond that it really is up to the hobbyist to decide how it may help him or her.

 

[vangvace]

Wow, didn’t know there’s no surge protection on the energy bar. I have mine plugged into a GFI outlet. I don’t have a UPS yet. I will soon though. For now I’m going to plug the Apex into the power strip that has the cabinet lights and iPad power plugged into it.

You can get a single outlet surge protector that should work well. It might even prevent many of the more common support issues.

I've used both the classic (before and after fusion) and P4 and I greatly prefer the P4 for reliability. I had an Apex that liked to dump its settings every couple months. I had another one with a temperamental outlet.

The other thing on reliability is pH and salinity probes and calibration. My GHL probes haven't drifted like the Apex ones would. Still a trust, but verify type of thing... but I don't feel like their readings are for trends.

 

[273629116]

HAve you had to replace any heads?

I replaced one set of rollers out of all the pumps. The original 2.1 had an issue with the rollers and those needed to be replaced on quite a few units I believe. The one set I did replace was used pretty heavily, I was trying to use that pump for ATO on my old tank. Now with the bigger Waterbox, I added in the doser maxi for water changes from my basement, and do ATO using 2 sensors and a separate pump also in my basement

 

[laverda]

I have been a lot nag time Neptune use including AquaController 2s, AC Jrs, AC 3, AC3 Pro and finally Apex classic. I loved everyone of them up to the Apex. I used to say they were as reliable as a rock. My Apex has let me down one 3 occasions when it turned my ALK dosing pump to ON each time. The first time I thought maybe I had some how accidentally done it. The next two times I had not touched the controller for at least a week before it happened each time. To make matters worse it did not send alarms when my PH spiked up as it was programmed to do. So that makes 4 major failures really. I also have 2 failed EB8s due to getting moist. Products designed for use in wet environments really should be designed with keeping moisture out of them in mind. That applies to a lot of other aquarium products that are poorly designed. Now I no longer rely on Apex for anything critical. Most of the addon components are unreliable and I would never use most of them. I have an AFS which is ridiculous loud.

I did not vote for either as I have no experience with the GHL. I have used RKL controllers and they were very problematic junk with horrible customer support.
I would love to switch to GHL, but the financial out lay is hard to justify. If my Apex gives any more trouble I may just switch back to my tried and true AC3 Pro.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

If my Apex gives any more trouble I may just switch back to my tried and true AC3 Pro.

I'm with you. I still have mine and a bunch of DC8s. You're right, it's a rock!!

 

[Tastee]

I’d like to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread. I’ve found it a really interesting read. This topic ran a risk of ‘us vs them’ and ‘I hate xxx because’ responses but everyone has been wonderfully thoughtful and considerate in their responses. Great effort everyone.

 

[Kyl]

I never had issue with my classic until that firmware reboot fiasco, but with my 2016 the probe results would go wonky ever so often, and I had branded hardware failures to the point I was checking it throughout the day via fusion to make sure everything is right. For that fact alone, the switch has been night and day for me.

In fact, the last time I checked myghl was to adjust dosing since my alk consumption is increasing, which was five days ago now. I only really ever look at the Profilux unit itself now to see what the alk is, via the KHD. If it goes out of range I get an email, but i'm still curious just to see where it's at.

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

Have only owned Apex and it has performed reliably for the past 7 years. However, I own a software development company and have done some programming (not a lot as I leave the serious stuff to our professionals). My observations and comments from one of our programmers is "what a crappy little language, it's missing basic functions" and is pretty obtuse. I haven't touched the programming in it for years so if it ever fails, I'm screwed. Still, it has been reliable and I've had great support so I'd go Apex again.

 

[KenO]

Reliability can have a number of definitions. Even the best hardware can fail. One of my KHD's had an issue with the internal mixing pump. Does that say that GHL products are garbage, I don't think so. The other one has been working just great. To me you have to consider how reliable is the data the controller is giving you. If the probes can't perform the function they are designed to do then they are not reliable. If they have to be constantly recalibrated that is not reliable.

With that said, I have both the Apex and I have 2 GHL P4 systems. I got the Apex first, honestly I didn't even know the GHL system was out there. All I ever saw was posts about Apex. So I bought one. After I did, I wished I didn't. I've programmed in a number of languages over the years starting back in the early 80's. To me, I could not wrap my head around the programming logic of the Apex. As for the probes, my pH probe never seemed to work right and I was always recalibrating the probe. The salinity probe, I could never get it to give me a true reading. I gave up trying. The ORP probe I just removed after awhile. Why have an aquarium controller if you couldn't rely on the probes and the data they were providing. Based on all that, I never really bothered to program the unit to do more than control my heaters and even that was a challenge. The heaters I had were too big to put on one outlet so I had to put them on 2 different outlets. Now my Apex is used to control my Radions that Mobius can't control and a couple of Maxspect gyre pumps with the ice cap controllers. It doesn't do any monitoring at all. My biggest issue with the Apex was the wifi after a powerfail, my Cox modem and router takes forever to reboot and once it does the Apex has given up trying to connect to the wifi. So I would have to reboot the Apex. That's hard to do when you are not home. The GHL didn't have that issue.

I worked with Ditto and Vinny at GHL and I then purchased a GHL P4 system and it was like night and day. I did have some issues getting the wifi working on the GHL, I also have a networking background, and it turned out the hotspot on the GHL was stepping on the same channel with one of my 2 repeaters in the house. I changed the channel on the GHL and the problem was solved. As for the probes, the pH probe calibrated first try. When I compared the reading to my handheld pinpoint pH meter the numbers were spot on. The salinity probe calibrated first time. I would read online and the general consensus was don't rely on salinity probes. With the Apex and my experience that was absolutely true. With the GHL, it showed me that my digital refractometer wasn't reading correctly. I was having issues with corals and it was because my salinity was way low. I now rely on the salinity probe and have the alarms set to let me know if the numbers drift.

The programing on the GHL for me was logical. If I could think of a task I wanted the GHL to do, I could program it to do that.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread, maybe I missed it. The P4 has a backup function. Yep after every change I make, I run a backup of my programming data and sensor data. So if my P4 ever dies and has to go in for service, I can reload all my programing and sensor data with 2 buttons.

 

[LadyTang2]

Reliability can have a number of definitions. Even the best hardware can fail. One of my KHD's had an issue with the internal mixing pump. Does that say that GHL products are garbage, I don't think so. The other one has been working just great. To me you have to consider how reliable is the data the controller is giving you. If the probes can't perform the function they are designed to do then they are not reliable. If they have to be constantly recalibrated that is not reliable.

With that said, I have both the Apex and I have 2 GHL P4 systems. I got the Apex first, honestly I didn't even know the GHL system was out there. All I ever saw was posts about Apex. So I bought one. After I did, I wished I didn't. I've programmed in a number of languages over the years starting back in the early 80's. To me, I could not wrap my head around the programming logic of the Apex. As for the probes, my pH probe never seemed to work right and I was always recalibrating the probe. The salinity probe, I could never get it to give me a true reading. I gave up trying. The ORP probe I just removed after awhile. Why have an aquarium controller if you couldn't rely on the probes and the data they were providing. Based on all that, I never really bothered to program the unit to do more than control my heaters and even that was a challenge. The heaters I had were too big to put on one outlet so I had to put them on 2 different outlets. Now my Apex is used to control my Radions that Mobius can't control and a couple of Maxspect gyre pumps with the ice cap controllers. It doesn't do any monitoring at all. My biggest issue with the Apex was the wifi after a powerfail, my Cox modem and router takes forever to reboot and once it does the Apex has given up trying to connect to the wifi. So I would have to reboot the Apex. That's hard to do when you are not home. The GHL didn't have that issue.

I worked with Ditto and Vinny at GHL and I then purchased a GHL P4 system and it was like night and day. I did have some issues getting the wifi working on the GHL, I also have a networking background, and it turned out the hotspot on the GHL was stepping on the same channel with one of my 2 repeaters in the house. I changed the channel on the GHL and the problem was solved. As for the probes, the pH probe calibrated first try. When I compared the reading to my handheld pinpoint pH meter the numbers were spot on. The salinity probe calibrated first time. I would read online and the general consensus was don't rely on salinity probes. With the Apex and my experience that was absolutely true. With the GHL, it showed me that my digital refractometer wasn't reading correctly. I was having issues with corals and it was because my salinity was way low. I now rely on the salinity probe and have the alarms set to let me know if the numbers drift.

The programing on the GHL for me was logical. If I could think of a task I wanted the GHL to do, I could program it to do that.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread, maybe I missed it. The P4 has a backup function. Yep after every change I make, I run a backup of my programming data and sensor data. So if my P4 ever dies and has to go in for service, I can reload all my programing and sensor data with 2 buttons.

Very informative post KenO, thanks

 

[User1]

One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread, maybe I missed it. The P4 has a backup function. Yep after every change I make, I run a backup of my programming data and sensor data. So if my P4 ever dies and has to go in for service, I can reload all my programing and sensor data with 2 buttons.

Pretty sure the Apex also has this. Login to the local unit, not Fusion, misc tile, 3rd icon at the top is load/save and looks like a disk drive.

 

[robbyg]

One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread, maybe I missed it. The P4 has a backup function. Yep after every change I make, I run a backup of my programming data and sensor data. So if my P4 ever dies and has to go in for service, I can reload all my programing and sensor data with 2 buttons.

Just a friendly word of advice @KenO
I would not put all my faith in a backup alone, but it really depends on how many modules and power bars you have connected. Most controllers recommend unplugging everything first and then installing them back in the same order that they where originally installed before you use the restore file.

While most controllers are some what plug and play, they don't actually have individual IDs that identify power bar one from power bar two or Temp sensor one from two. As each one is plugged in they get assigned an address that depends on the order they are plugged in and your programs depend on those address to know which one to look at and talk to.

It does work if you have every cord labeled as to which port it is plugged into and also have a saved list of addresses for each device on the system.

I learned this years ago when I tore down my system to neaten up the wiring. I plugged back in things into various ports as I went along and then nothing worked right. Powerbar one had power bar three's Address and the programs all turned on the wrong plugs or referenced the wrong sensor. In the end it was just easier for me to redo the whole of the programming as I have so much stuff attached it was almost impossible to get it all back without a reference to the ports and Addresses.

So I suggest that you make a screen shot of your device lists with the addresses and keep it handy so you can plug everything back in the right order. BTW the reason you cannot just wipe and restore the system with everything plugged in is that It will assign all the stuff addresses in a random order as it detects each device.

I now keep my wires labeled and keep screen shots of my addresses and my programs. That way even without a restore file I can put things back to normal.

 

[KenO]

Just a friendly word of advice @KenO
I would not put all my faith in a backup alone, but it really depends on how many modules and power bars you have connected. Most controllers recommend unplugging everything first and then installing them back in the same order that they where originally installed before you use the restore file.

While most controllers are some what plug and play, they don't actually have individual IDs that identify power bar one from power bar two or Temp sensor one from two. As each one is plugged in they get assigned an address that depends on the order they are plugged in and your programs depend on those address to know which one to look at and talk to.

It does work if you have every cord labeled as to which port it is plugged into and also have a saved list of addresses for each device on the system.

I learned this years ago when I tore down my system to neaten up the wiring. I plugged back in things into various ports as I went along and then nothing worked right. Powerbar one had power bar three's Address and the programs all turned on the wrong plugs or referenced the wrong sensor. In the end it was just easier for me to redo the whole of the programming as I have so much stuff attached it was almost impossible to get it all back without a reference to the ports and Addresses.

So I suggest that you make a screen shot of your device lists with the addresses and keep it handy so you can plug everything back in the right order. BTW the reason you cannot just wipe and restore the system with everything plugged in is that It will assign all the stuff addresses in a random order as it detects each device.

I now keep my wires labeled and keep screen shots of my addresses and my programs. That way even without a restore file I can put things back to normal.

I never leave anything to chance. I have screenshots of everything, including what you listed above. When I did the update to the 7.24 release I had to use the data backup to restore my configuration and programing. It all worked like a charm.

 

[lmm1967]

Why have an aquarium controller if you couldn't rely on the probes and the data they were providing.

Which temperature graph below would you say has more reliable data?

Above is my temperature graph of one of my tanks on GHL - GHL's response is I must have interference in my home.

Odd that this expansion box - no matter where I put it in my house or what tank it's on - does this.

No other controllers in my home do this - including a DIY Reef-Pi (see below) that is unshielded and has the temp probe cables laying in the midst of power cables for my halides.

How about 1 temperature port reporting 3 degrees off from every other port no matter what probe is plugged in or what tank it is measuring?

 

[LadyTang2]

So I suggest that you make a screen shot of your device lists with the addresses and keep it handy

Where can you find the addresses in GHL?

 

[KenO]

Which temperature graph below would you say has more reliable data?

Above is my temperature graph of one of my tanks on GHL - GHL's response is I must have interference in my home.

Odd that this expansion box - no matter where I put it in my house or what tank it's on - does this.

No other controllers in my home do this - including a DIY Reef-Pi (see below) that is unshielded and has the temp probe cables laying in the midst of power cables for my halides.

How about 1 temperature port reporting 3 degrees off from every other port no matter what probe is plugged in or what tank it is measuring?

Like I said in my write up any hardware can fail or be faulty. If you’ve done the troubleshooting and the EB is at the latest firmware level. I would load the latest version under the 7.24 release which is considered a beta version since I’ve read that there was some issues with the probes on the EB and if that doesn’t fix it then send it and the probe to GHL for service. My one KHD failed. It kept giving me a low dKH reading and it was making a loud noise during testing. I contacted GHL sent them my KHD graphs and a video of the noise. They tested and confirmed the internal pump was bad and replaced the pump and returned the unit to me.

 

[KenO]

Where can you find the addresses in GHL?

Go under the System Tab and the PAB assign and configure tab then you will see this.

click on your PB this one shows for the number start it’s 7 so it’s the 2nd PB. I did screen shots of all my devices like this.