Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

[jda]

I would be interested in your methods. I have also never had a QT tank.

Here is a quick link to some of my methods in this thread, but they are likely not complete since I am usually hesitant to talk much about this. Let't take more of this off of this thread - I am actually not the thread destroyer that I am made out to be... to anybody else, there is a lot nuance and stuff here that needs to be understood and this is not likely good for people without vast experience.

Ich / Velvet Do Nothing Treatment Thread!

I am sharing my experience beating (living with) ich/velvet by doing nothing except maintaining good water quality and movement and increasing the quantity, quality and variety of foods offered to the fish in my DT. Hi all. I'm a big fan of R2R and the many perspectives I've gained over the...

www.reef2reef.com

If we agree that what makes Jay so good is his ability to help people when the rules/instructions won't or don't work, then why should we not all strive to do this for new hobbyists when they enter the hobby?

 

[jda]

Nobody is right or wrong 100% of the time. While I don't always agree with BRS, I have never found them to be dishonest or purposely misleading people. I find them more helpful than not.

If someone posts something that is incorrect, it should be corrected. But some of the time it really doesn't even matter. Like this thread. It doesn't really matter what method people use to cycle their tank, so long as it works. Even though I think the old fashioned way is dated and takes longer than is needed, I'm not going to care if someone wants to do it that way.

And when it would take me a month to reach the point where I could add fish vs same day adding fish, I think it skips quite a bit. Same for the other bacteria we are able to add now which helps skip many of the ugly stages. Introducing the bacteria allows for systems to become mature much faster, even if things like corals getting bigger still take longer.

Also I'm not really sure why you think the cycle takes as long after adding bacteria. I guess it can depend on the type of bacteria, but as long as they are in your tank reproducing at a rate that is enough to handle the fish load, I'm unsure what else you are really going for at that stage of the tank. There is no point where it stops working, you are seeding the tank.

It's kind of like sod. You can wait for the grass to grow naturally, or you can buy sod and have a great lawn right away. None of my business which you choose, but I would find it odd for the guy who grows grass to say the other guy doesn't have a real lawn because the roots haven't fully taken hold or whatever.

I think that you made my point for me about the sod. Sure, you can put sod in, but it is much deeper than that. You can pretty much plant seed at any time... it will germinate when the conditions are right and it takes a while... no doubt it can take a long time (we used to seed in July or August when the dirt was dry and easy to move and it would not come up until April.) Without telling people when to put the sod in, how to prepare the soil, how much to water it, how to use root stimulator, what situations to use root stimulator, etc, the sod will not root down and it will die. Some might get lucky if they pick the right month and a bunch of rain comes and their soil was perfect, but this is not proof that it is as easy as "just putting in sod." The nuance and details matter. There are differences. You cannot just tell people to go and get some sod and have them just be successful just to unroll it and walk away. The directions also need to be tailored to Jane Homeowner vs a professional landscaper - this matters too.

The point is this - even if you lay down sod, it is not a lawn yet... it is grass in a thin layer of soil with thin roots sitting on top of different soil. It takes more than this to be a lawn. Just because it looks like a lawn does not mean that you are done. There is no skip lawn. Laying down sod = adding a bottle of bacteria. Looking like a lawn = fish living without wait. Roots growing and settling in = actual cycle. Not watering, laying down in the wrong months, not preparing the soil right, not stimulating, etc. = the myriad of things that people do wrong even when they use bottled bacteria which are also numerous.

I agree that some things don't matter as long as they work, but you all are still ignoring the failures that have happened. The tools have not been used right by too many people to ignore and we have established not everybody gets the right instructions (my whole point on BRS is that they meant well and still led people astray), then giving advice like "add bottle, add fish" is just reckless. There is more to it than that. There is a lot of what-ifs in your posts like "the right kind of bacteria" or "reproducing at a rate that is enough." All of this is right and should be explained in a way that does not happen with the typical brandon post, which is what this is all about, right? This is where the ire, not just from me, comes from...

This is somewhat off topic, but I could add fish the first day into a sterile tank without bottled bacteria, still never have my ammonia get over .05, or so, and have a nice and healthy tank. I don't suggest this since it takes an awful lot of experience that most do not have... and patience and restraint which also most do not have.

 

[MnFish1]

I think that you made my point for me about the sod. Sure, you can put sod in, but it is much deeper than that. You can pretty much plant seed at any time... it will germinate when the conditions are right and it takes a while... no doubt it can take a long time (we used to seed in July or August when the dirt was dry and easy to move and it would not come up until April.) Without telling people when to put the sod in, how to prepare the soil, how much to water it, how to use root stimulator, what situations to use root stimulator, etc, the sod will not root down and it will die. Some might get lucky if they pick the right month and a bunch of rain comes and their soil was perfect, but this is not proof that it is as easy as "just putting in sod." The nuance and details matter. There are differences. You cannot just tell people to go and get some sod and have them just be successful just to unroll it and walk away. The directions also need to be tailored to Jane Homeowner vs a professional landscaper - this matters too.

The point is this - even if you lay down sod, it is not a lawn yet... it is grass in a thin layer of soil with thin roots sitting on top of different soil. It takes more than this to be a lawn. Just because it looks like a lawn does not mean that you are done. There is no skip lawn. Laying down sod = adding a bottle of bacteria. Looking like a lawn = fish living without wait. Roots growing and settling in = actual cycle. Not watering, laying down in the wrong months, not preparing the soil right, not stimulating, etc. = the myriad of things that people do wrong even when they use bottled bacteria which are also numerous.

I agree that some things don't matter as long as they work, but you all are still ignoring the failures that have happened. The tools have not been used right by too many people to ignore and we have established not everybody gets the right instructions (my whole point on BRS is that they meant well and still led people astray), then giving advice like "add bottle, add fish" is just reckless. There is more to it than that. There is a lot of what-ifs in your posts like "the right kind of bacteria" or "reproducing at a rate that is enough." All of this is right and should be explained in a way that does not happen with the typical brandon post, which is what this is all about, right? This is where the ire, not just from me, comes from...

This is somewhat off topic, but I could add fish the first day into a sterile tank without bottled bacteria, still never have my ammonia get over .05, or so, and have a nice and healthy tank. I don't suggest this since it takes an awful lot of experience that most do not have... and patience and restraint which also most do not have.

Yes - thats what people do with TTM and some QT tanks on a daily basis. BTW - I'm not recommending the 'slow way' or the 'quick way'. There are plenty of successes (and failures) - with both the 'slow way' and the 'quick way'. I am merely trying to make the point that those that say 'you shouldn't or can't' do it the 'quicker' way - are somehow mistaken.

 

[MnFish1]

All of this nuance and explanation is much more accurate than just saying that bacteria = cycle. Of course just having bacteria does not mean that a tank is cycled. I also agree that some bacteria need treated differently than others. It is not smart to say such simple comments like bacteria = cycle since somebody who does not know better can take it the wrong way and make a bad decision.... and if somebody does make a bad decision based on a post like that, then it is not really all that helpful to tell them that they should have just followed the directions.

Don't even get me start about people who believe BRS videos. ...there is not enough time left here in the day. However, do BRS instructions qualify as directions/instructions?

What is more accurately happening here is that SOME/RIGHT bacteria can usually get people through until a real cycle can start to work and take hold. Just because fish don't die and some element is/is not present never means that a cycle is done. If the hobbyist is smart and still have some patience, then all could be well. Some caution should be given about inverts and coral since some are well demonstrated to have ill effects in these scenarios that are never covered in these topics (my apologies if I missed them). ...you know the whole story. This is no less true than using a single piece of live rock or any other seed including fish gut bacteria - if you can keep the bioload low enough for the added bacteria source population, then you will be OK, but if you don't then you will fail since you have not truly cycled.

FYI - again - I'm not saying that experience doesn't matter - NOR - am I saying that ONLY following directions will guarantee 'success'. My point is that IMHO - Many people deliberately do NOT follow directions (if a little trace elements are good, more is better, etc etc). And the directions/instructions I'm talking about are the directions/instructions on whatever product one is using. So - to answer your question - I would not consider BRS videos 'instructions' - but rather their opinion. As to their experiments - They are interesting to watch - but I would not say they are 100% the answer to every question

 

[jda]

If we agree that only following directions does not guarantee success, then we cannot blame the person and not the method. Any method involving dynamic things is flawed without help. We can also probably agree that advice that is mostly given here is not appropriate for especially somebody new to the hobby.

FWIW - I just read macrobacter 7 instructions. I have no idea if this stuff is good or a joke, but the instructions require the hobbyist to know quite a bit about bioload... and they even state that these are recommendations and say things like "most aquaria." I also read Fritzyme 7, which is for freshwater, but it has directions... dose given for new system... for systems with heavy bioload or some new systems (different I guess from the other new systems before) can be increased up to 10x with no help on determining the gradient... like a new hobbyist is supposed to know? If you overdosed (how would anybody know), then perform water changes. Neither of these talk about ammonia and the FW one does not talk about nitrite. Neither talk about stocking of fish, coral and inverts. NONE OF THE THESE ARE TRUE DIRECTIONS, even from a manufacturer.

I have no stake in the quick or slow game. My stake is in correctly and accurately identifying what is happening, explaining it so that people understand it, can prepare for what is coming and stay out of the pitfalls that some often experience. Labeling pouring in a bottle as cycled has caused harm - folks who didn't know about parameter spikes during a cycle for the new 'nem that they bought for nemo, buying too many fish, etc. They did not know that the real cycle had not happened yet. Sure, they are dumb, but it might not be that they did anything wrong and were just dumb to believe people who said that the cycle was over if fish were swimming OK and still alive.

I think that most know that I do not consider BRS to be an authority on much of anything outside of promoting, selling and shipping product, but others do. Without nuance, details and experience, how would anybody know what to believe what is helpful and what is not? Are there directions/instructions for what to believe from BRS?

Let's don't even start on the people who do follow manufacturer directions/instructions to a tee and still get hurt.... ahem... UWC, anybody?

I get that some people are going to want to just do whatever they want for whatever reason - deliberately do stupid things and/or not follow manufacturer directions. For me, this is not OK since live things are at stake. It is especially frustrating since the gain is often so minimal in the long run, or there is no real gain at all other than an illusion that some might believe. They all think of themselves as pioneers, like they were the first people to think of something, have a new method and are saving the hobby with some advancement. Nearly all the time, they just thought that they were smart because they were too dumb to realize that all of this was tried before, and usually by smarter people. They ignore when people tell them that all of this has been done and suggested and that they can even read about it in other places. They can even convince themselves further by thinking that anybody who is against them is dumb, establishment or a troll or hater. I totally don't have time for people who deliberately want to do stupid things... but I can leave them alone if they are just content to hurt themselves (and their livestock), but it is different for me when they want to hurt others, and especially those who don't know better.

 

[MnFish1]

If we agree that only following directions does not guarantee success, then we cannot blame the person and not the method. Any method involving dynamic things is flawed without help. We can also probably agree that advice that is mostly given here is not appropriate for especially somebody new to the hobby.

FWIW - I just read macrobacter 7 instructions. I have no idea if this stuff is good or a joke, but the instructions require the hobbyist to know quite a bit about bioload... and they even state that these are recommendations and say things like "most aquaria." I also read Fritzyme 7, which is for freshwater, but it has directions... dose given for new system... for systems with heavy bioload or some new systems (different I guess from the other new systems before) can be increased up to 10x with no help on determining the gradient... like a new hobbyist is supposed to know? If you overdosed (how would anybody know), then perform water changes. Neither of these talk about ammonia and the FW one does not talk about nitrite. Neither talk about stocking of fish, coral and inverts. NONE OF THE THESE ARE TRUE DIRECTIONS, even from a manufacturer.

I have no stake in the quick or slow game. My stake is in correctly and accurately identifying what is happening, explaining it so that people understand it, can prepare for what is coming and stay out of the pitfalls that some often experience. Labeling pouring in a bottle as cycled has caused harm - folks who didn't know about parameter spikes during a cycle for the new 'nem that they bought for nemo, buying too many fish, etc. They did not know that the real cycle had not happened yet. Sure, they are dumb, but it might not be that they did anything wrong and were just dumb to believe people who said that the cycle was over if fish were swimming OK and still alive.

I think that most know that I do not consider BRS to be an authority on much of anything outside of promoting, selling and shipping product, but others do. Without nuance, details and experience, how would anybody know what to believe what is helpful and what is not? Are there directions/instructions for what to believe from BRS?

Let's don't even start on the people who do follow manufacturer directions/instructions to a tee and still get hurt.... ahem... UWC, anybody?

I get that some people are going to want to just do whatever they want for whatever reason - deliberately do stupid things and/or not follow manufacturer directions. For me, this is not OK since live things are at stake. It is especially frustrating since the gain is often so minimal in the long run, or there is no real gain at all other than an illusion that some might believe. They all think of themselves as pioneers, like they were the first people to think of something, have a new method and are saving the hobby with some advancement. Nearly all the time, they just thought that they were smart because they were too dumb to realize that all of this was tried before, and usually by smarter people. They ignore when people tell them that all of this has been done and suggested and that they can even read about it in other places. They can even convince themselves further by thinking that anybody who is against them is dumb, establishment or a troll or hater. I totally don't have time for people who deliberately want to do stupid things... but I can leave them alone if they are just content to hurt themselves (and their livestock), but it is different for me when they want to hurt others, and especially those who don't know better.

We've kind of gone down a rabbit hole on some of these things - but I agree with you. Here is a quote of my response a this past Monday:

You know as well as everyone else - the objection is the 'possibility' that a living being could be harmed - its the same objection that comes up every time its discussed. It doesn't matter that it never happens - the thing is it 'could' happen - so its "barbaric". If you think you can get beyond that argument - I think you're probably incorrect. (BTW - I completely agree with you - with both freshwater and marine - with thousands of dollars worth of discus, after moving one tank to another - and common sense looking at @Dr. Reef 's experiments - of course its possible to put in bacteria - and fish on day 1. I agree with you there is no debate that its possible - and successful - and follows the instructions on several products already available.

Hasn't this ship sailed yet? I agree with you - you can use bottled bacteria to start a tank - with dry rock, live rock or a canister filter.

Part of the equation - which people should be aware of:

1. A seneye is not required - a Seachem alert is enough in all likelyhood
2. It depends on surface area and bioload - as to whether the method will be successful
3. Since the topic of the thread you posted was 'high ammonia, nitrite and nitrates' I would assume fish disease got very little discussion.

I completely agree that if there is no visible distress in inverts and fish - there would be little concern for ammonia at that minute. The problem is - the problem can come up the 'next day'.

Thus - we are mostly saying the same thing. Right?

For example.

Bacteria company says put in x for y gallons of water.
If you have a large bioload (which I would measure as a rising free ammonia level on a seachem alert) - you can use more.

But just for the sake of discussion - the actual instructions for Fritz 900 (saltwater) are (and I wish that they had added to check ammonia and nitrate in a new tank) - otherwise I think they are fairly complete?:

For new systems, dose 1 oz (29 mL) per 25 US gallons (95 L). Shake well before dosing. To decrease cycling time, FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 can be safely used up to 5x recommended dosage.

• For best results, maintain ideal water parameters noted below and use FritzZyme® TurboStart 900 before the expiration date on the package
• All chlorine and chloramines must be removed from water before adding FritzZyme® TurboStart 900
• Nitrifying bacteria require ammonia and nitrite to survive; in new systems introduce livestock or another ammonia source like Fishless Fuel to start cycling
• Maintain adequate water flow or aeration
• Discontinue use of skimmer and UV sterilizers for at least 5 days after application
• Store refrigerated
• No contraindications: can be used with all of our other products and meds
• Safe for use with all species, including plants and invertebrates
• Safe to add directly into a tank with livestock present
• Systems may be slightly cloudy or have an earthy odor for several hours after treatment
• Variations of odor and color between bottles is normal, a strong sulfur smell does not mean the bacteria are dead
• Do not freeze or overheat. Store in a cool, dark place
• Overdosed? Live nitrifying bacteria are very safe even if overdosed. Observe for any distress, perform small water changes if necessary

Ideal parameters for FritzZyme® TurboStart 900 nitrifying bacteria:
Temperature: 77-86 F (25-30 C)
pH: 7.3-8.0; nitrification is completely inhibited below pH 6.0
Salinity: 15 - 40 ppt (1.011 to 1.030 sg)
Alkalinity (KH): minimum 4.5 dKH or 80.5 ppm KH
Phosphate: above 0 ppm

PS - I wish they would have mentioned measuring nitrate and ammonia since its for a 'new tank' - that I agree is missing

 

[jda]

I think that we are somewhat saying the same things, but not enough... at least for me. This last mile it too important and anybody can get the wholesale infrastructure done.

I still think that those "directions" are only a start and that the people who need help most, newer folks, still have no idea how to correctly use them, unless just by luck that it works out. I can think of 100 ways, which I will spare you all, to follow those to a tee and still have a failure... the most common being overstocking since my idea parameters of temp, pH, salinity, alk and po4 are all fine... so I go and get some nemos, a dory, a few nems, a moorish idol (forgot his name) and are still ticked that the store did not have that cute stingray teacher or any sharks. I could fail just by overfeeding the fish too much - I just looked at a package of Rods Food and mysis and it does not have directions of feeding... just a warning not to overfeed but also no detail between new, newer and established tanks what what overfeeding means to each.

I would like to see this board help people along the lines of, follow the dosage instructions on the bottle for an initial tank, understand that this just starts the cycle and might allow some fish, but it is not done. You need to be aware of some things like not overfeeding, keeping stock low, hold off on inverts for a while. ...things like this. Maybe help people with some common failures instead of saying that they don't count.

I want people to understand that bottled bacteria is no guarantee of success and if they don't succeed then it was not likely for some cop-out reason that they did not follow the directions. If we can get here, then we can understand that paradigm of "pour and stock" is also not smart to deliver to the masses. There needs to be wholesale condemnation of one-size methods or else some will always believe that one is OK because another was.

This needs no discussion, but 86 for ideal temp? pH of 7.3 to 8.0? Alk of 4.5 might be OK for FO, but not good advice for a future reef. Was this a copy/paste error from an Amazonian tank? I imagine that it was. Ha. Great directions/instructions.

 

[brandon429]

we cant condemn something in motion for nearly a decade now, and seated in the market as #1 cycle option.


the only option is for skeptics to relent, and take notes on the trending these fish-in cycles present to us. take notes, not dictate, nobody is seeking out your cycle advice they're following another way the masses use. quick stocks, dump and go's...


the only thing you and I can do is take notes on the patterns unfolding. by all means redirect the ones you can

among the deluge, catching a teacup is still some effort.


along the lines of jobs on file in massive work threads:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

I need to to a tank swap out here in the next few weeks. same tank size just a full replacement. red sea 650P around 180ish gallons I have 2" of carib sea special grade my fav. sand. I plan to put the fish corals and LR in to a tank with HOB filter, flow heater and light for maybe (...

www.reef2reef.com

yet another viewpoint for symptomless ammonia proofing

because every animal in every tank for eight years lives, 100% track record, we can assume ammonia was within control without testing for it. I'm sure this will garner pages of forceful disagreement, but again, what do the links show? the only links we really see recurring on this thread? we got spot checked on bed swaps a few times there with digital nh3 meters...and passed. we are able to link symptoms (lack of any) to actual digital reads each time there's an inspection.

work threads provide a service to aquarists so they can repeat tested patterns on file. Any aspect of cycling I can show you: is in control


above, consequences are being hinted at for doing bottle bac + fish cycles without verification.

it's incredibly hard to get any posts though showing a failure on the part of bottle bac with fish...the consequence portion seems made up or in the least an outlier so miniscule in chance doesn't seem worth a mention, much less a stance.

 

[brandon429]

if any reader here has links for formal published papers on how to move transfer $20,000 sps reefs without losing stock and never, ever using bottle bac in the jobs go ahead and post those too. Only formal links have the real truth...let's see some for the jobs of switching sandbeds and relocating huge established reefs. only links from google scholar please. just one will do.

its amazing that rinsing sand in tap water is every single job on file.


if we asked the umpires here "does rinsing your sandbed in tap water cause harm" 100% would say yes, of course with some sort of personal slight following. I don't think MN would say that, he's measured aspects of the job

we kept people's rocks in saltwater above, not freshwater.

work threads analyze best practices claims by assembling good or bad outcomes from other people's reefs. it's hard to luck into not killing other people's reef using bad science, it's usually only good science that works, re: the bottle bac threads with no ammonia control symptoms being the only ones we can find. studying what 200 aquarists had as an outcome from placing fish and bac together on day one reveals patterns that it's working, without harm in each thread I'm seeing.

spot checks using digital meters keeps checking out, no matter how we test load a cycle: with a quick early bioload, or in the case above by robbing half the surface area for the system all at once and then the remaining filter bac must now carry the load the rocks + sand used to carry. Dr. Reef did a formal study on bottle bac initial bioload carry using multiple tuned seneyes and showed compliance as the trend, not failure. these two threads are tests of cycling adaptation.

cycles seem under control even when you instantly remove the sandbed from any reef tank using a common degree of live rocks in the display.

cycles seem under control when dumped from a bottle into the tank, initially. I struggle to find any way cycles have trouble maintaining in this hobby, and lots of verification work is on file for the claim. the warnings about loss and cycle incompletion simply aren't able to be located as a failed cycle thread, much less 50 pages of failed cycles collected. heck I'd enjoy seeing two examples.

robbing sandbeds from any tank that posts without saying yes to some and no to others should appear on paper as the most dangerous activity possible in reefing, but we can see it's not. it wasn't any kind of cycle insult as the masses (or critics) had concerned at the start of the thread.

 

[jda]

You still have no interest in changing your tune or approach even though many have effectively demonstrated why the basis is wrong, discounting the failures is wrong and why other people's "work threads" are proof of nothing, which you claim as yours?

About the only thing that is accurately posted is that "haters" will come. People wanting to give the truth have come, and for good reason, yet you want to act the same way which will just bring more. ...yet it is always them and never you. If you are not going to change, at least quit complaining about them.

For anybody new to this, beware... this is a misleading and disingenuous post from another thread "every single cycle I've set up remotely over the last 3-4 years and logged in work threads confirms..." What he means is that he has read about other peoples work on message boards and picks and chooses what he wants to claim and keep track of. He has never done any of the actual work like "I" or "set up" is meant to imply. ...just beware. This will probably be edited now, so I saved a copy in case the narrative changes.

BTW - I know that you read these beyond laughing at ignored posts and otherwise responding. Claiming that you ignore them is another misrepresentation.

 

[jda]

it's incredibly hard to get any posts though showing a failure on the part of bottle bac with fish...the consequence portion seems made up or in the least an outlier so miniscule in chance doesn't seem worth a mention, much less a stance.

This is new in an edit. I guess that the people (sorry, trolls and haters) just on this thread that have posted about losses are making it up? Perhaps I value life enough to take the time for a mention and to have a stance. The stuff that dies might appreciate it. The people (who made it all up?) who lost fish might appreciate it. I do not agree with minuscule, but even if the failure and losses are small, it is always worth the effort. Fix this indifference and lack of balance and a lot of your trolls and haters might go away.

 

[homer1475]

OMG give it up already, both of you.

21 page thread that could have ended on page 1, with just you to bickering back and forth.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

I crashed a 10 gallon tank that I rinsed the sand bed on. Even posted about it in one of mnfishs threads. It can happen. We see daily tank crashes here for various reasons. Pretending like it doesn't happen is just...weird honestly.

 

[kschweer]

This thread has more than ran its course. It’s been decided to close it at this point.