Opinion needed please

[sevitz5]

Hey all, I had a 110 gal sps dominant tank up and running for 2 years with some softball size colonies in it. It had a sand bottom.

I decided I wanted a bigger tank, so I purchased a 180 gal from my LFS. I set it up on the other side of my room to make moving things easier. Following the advice of my LFS I bought about 90 lbs of the white dry reef rock and mortared it together with E-Marco reef mortar. I then setup a new trigger 39 sump and filled the tank with RODI water. My return is a Cor-20 and I have 4 of the WAV pumps for flow in the tank. I bought 2 bottles of the refrigerated Fritz 900 turbo start. I let that run for a few days, then added 8 Chromis and a small sailfin tang. I moved over a marine pure block out of my old tank and also added morenew marine pure to the sump. After another week, I moved over all my mushrooms from my old tank. I observed them for a few days, then moved over my zoas and LPS. I left the tank run for 2 more weeks, then I moved over all the fish from the old tank. I also used about 20lbs of the live rock from the old tank. I then moved all my sps over and took the old tank down. I used the same lights, skimmer etc.The main difference was the new tank is bare bottom.
Fast forward to today, I have lost almost every sps in my tank. The STN from the base up. I feel my parameters are solid:
Alk 8.2-8.5
Ca 420-426
Mg 1280-1340
NO3 5-10
PO4 .02-.08
i have done 2 ICP test that showed elevated aluminum (marine pure) and low iodine. That’s it.

Was the LFS advice bad? Was it too fast? It was roughly 4-5 weeks from filling the tank to adding sps. I am just wanting to figure out what went wrong.....I basically have to start from scratch on sps. First pic is my old tank.
Please help guys!

 

[Hemmdog]

Not sure but I’m very sorry to hear you lost a lot of colonies

 

[ReefGeezer]

Gotta luv em, but those sticks go south if you look at them funny. What was the alk in the old tank?

 

[MnFish1]

Hey all, I had a 110 gal sps dominant tank up and running for 2 years with some softball size colonies in it. It had a sand bottom.

I decided I wanted a bigger tank, so I purchased a 180 gal from my LFS. I set it up on the other side of my room to make moving things easier. Following the advice of my LFS I bought about 90 lbs of the white dry reef rock and mortared it together with E-Marco reef mortar. I then setup a new trigger 39 sump and filled the tank with RODI water. My return is a Cor-20 and I have 4 of the WAV pumps for flow in the tank. I bought 2 bottles of the refrigerated Fritz 900 turbo start. I let that run for a few days, then added 8 Chromis and a small sailfin tang. I moved over a marine pure block out of my old tank and also added morenew marine pure to the sump. After another week, I moved over all my mushrooms from my old tank. I observed them for a few days, then moved over my zoas and LPS. I left the tank run for 2 more weeks, then I moved over all the fish from the old tank. I also used about 20lbs of the live rock from the old tank. I then moved all my sps over and took the old tank down. I used the same lights, skimmer etc.The main difference was the new tank is bare bottom.
Fast forward to today, I have lost almost every sps in my tank. The STN from the base up. I feel my parameters are solid:
Alk 8.2-8.5
Ca 420-426
Mg 1280-1340
NO3 5-10
PO4 .02-.08
i have done 2 ICP test that showed elevated aluminum (marine pure) and low iodine. That’s it.

Was the LFS advice bad? Was it too fast? It was roughly 4-5 weeks from filling the tank to adding sps. I am just wanting to figure out what went wrong.....I basically have to start from scratch on sps. First pic is my old tank.
Please help guys!

I don't think it was too fast - BUT - there are differences between a 180 and a 110 i.e. depth - so the light will be different. I have had times when I have taken coral (in the same tank) and moved it up - or down - or sideways - and have it do what you mention - its been mentioned at my LFS as well. Changing the depth of the tank - for example is the same as changing the light. Spreading out more light in a larger area - also changes the light. If you used everything else 'the same' - You are probably changing multiple things (organics, flow, etc). Im hoping that your corals will make a recovery.

 

[MnFish1]

An other question - did you use any water from your 'old tank' in your 'new tank' - if not - that can also cause problems. depending on the nutrient levels (not the measured ones)

 

[Justfebreezeit]

I feel like frags would have survived the transition better.

 

[Mical]

I was going to ask the same thing as MnFish - how much of old water did you use?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Sorry to hear about this. I can’t say whether it was the best advice or worst advice as I have not performed an sps tank transfer. I do wish you the best of luck regarding your new system.

 

[ScottB]

Darn. You had some great looking colonies there. Sorry for the loss.

Spotless parameters IMO if they matched those of the donor tank. Iodine and Al I don't feel had much to do with it, but good on you for testing.

My speculation would be multiple small stressors did them in. The stress of the move itself. They were not accustomed to the bacteria. The bacteria consumed their prior (and now very diluted) nutrient sources. SPS need PO4 but struggle to consume it directly from the water column. Instead, they eat bacteria that have consumed PO4. But the Fritz and the dilution, and the lack of bacterial film from the glass, substrate and water starved them. My best guess.

My basement frag system took a while to develop a solid biome that my sticks would grow in. I have been expanding that system incrementally from 1 tank & sump to now 3 tanks and 2 sumps that share the same water. Each new tank took months to become a happy biome for sticks. Dinos on the other hand found each new tank a delightful place, while the "older" tank(s) were dino free. Same water, but not the same biome.

For my case, I BELIEVE that I need to work faster to "dirty up" the new tank sooner. When we are moving tanks, we tend (or I did) to take the opportunity to clean all the pumps/hoses/powerheads/heaters and surfaces. I posit that we should NOT do that. We need all the surface slime we can get over into the new and rather sterile tank. Slime is beautiful, balancing and nutritious.

Again, sorry for the loss. I gotta go refill my nitrate and phosphate dosers on the frag system.

 

[El_Guapo13]

Hey all, I had a 110 gal sps dominant tank up and running for 2 years with some softball size colonies in it. It had a sand bottom.

I decided I wanted a bigger tank, so I purchased a 180 gal from my LFS. I set it up on the other side of my room to make moving things easier. Following the advice of my LFS I bought about 90 lbs of the white dry reef rock and mortared it together with E-Marco reef mortar. I then setup a new trigger 39 sump and filled the tank with RODI water. My return is a Cor-20 and I have 4 of the WAV pumps for flow in the tank. I bought 2 bottles of the refrigerated Fritz 900 turbo start. I let that run for a few days, then added 8 Chromis and a small sailfin tang. I moved over a marine pure block out of my old tank and also added morenew marine pure to the sump. After another week, I moved over all my mushrooms from my old tank. I observed them for a few days, then moved over my zoas and LPS. I left the tank run for 2 more weeks, then I moved over all the fish from the old tank. I also used about 20lbs of the live rock from the old tank. I then moved all my sps over and took the old tank down. I used the same lights, skimmer etc.The main difference was the new tank is bare bottom.
Fast forward to today, I have lost almost every sps in my tank. The STN from the base up. I feel my parameters are solid:
Alk 8.2-8.5
Ca 420-426
Mg 1280-1340
NO3 5-10
PO4 .02-.08
i have done 2 ICP test that showed elevated aluminum (marine pure) and low iodine. That’s it.

Was the LFS advice bad? Was it too fast? It was roughly 4-5 weeks from filling the tank to adding sps. I am just wanting to figure out what went wrong.....I basically have to start from scratch on sps. First pic is my old tank.
Please help guys!

SPS are generally much less forgiving corals to begin with. Hence why most people say to wait until a tank is well established for at least half a year before adding SPS, especially Acros. And yeah, if you used water from your previous tank it probably would help with giving the livestock an environment that is mostly similar to what they were used to, but that doesn't change the fact that the tank was brand new only four weeks earlier and was setup with, from what it sounds, mostly dry rock.

So the SPS went from being settled on rock that was full of life, to mostly dead rock. Add to that the bioload from moving all your other livestock over, and something had to give, due to the system not being established enough to handle it all.

Unfortunately, the ones most likely to go would be the SPS corals as they need more stability and do not react as well to sudden sharp changes as other corals or even fish and invertebrates would.

Also, I do still think that even with adding bacteria ourselves with whatever product we choose to use during cycling, we still should be giving tanks (particularly larger ones) time to establish themselves properly. Just cause we poured some bacteria in, doesn't mean that all of it is still present one month later at the end of the cycling process. For all we know something could have gone wrong and the bacteria had all died by the time we start treating the tank, so all we did was add waste to the system, with nothing to break it down. Plus, more than likely alot of the bacteria we are trying to culture in the tank to cycle die during the process en masse, more so than they are reproducing as they have little to live off of, what with it being a brand new setup.

So if and when I setup a larger tank in the future, no matter how I choose to cycle, be it naturally or by dosing bacteria, I still plan to gold off on adding ANY SPS to it for at least half a year for the more forgiving ones (birdsnests, monti caps, etc.) and I would wait even longer to add Acros and other more difficult corals, even if I was only moving them from one tank to the new one and both tanks had the same parameters.

Just my personal thought though.

 

[SeaDweller]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but to me i feel it’s water related, not necessarily parameters but like some contaminant (maybe lack of N and P too)

 

[sevitz5]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

my alk in the old tank was closer to 8.0, so the new tank was slightly higher, but not enough to cause a problem.

as far as water, yes the new tank was all new water.

I definitely have learned a hard lesson with this tank!

 

[sevitz5]

SPS are generally much less forgiving corals to begin with. Hence why most people say to wait until a tank is well established for at least half a year before adding SPS, especially Acros. And yeah, if you used water from your previous tank it probably would help with giving the livestock an environment that is mostly similar to what they were used to, but that doesn't change the fact that the tank was brand new only four weeks earlier and was setup with, from what it sounds, mostly dry rock.

So the SPS went from being settled on rock that was full of life, to mostly dead rock. Add to that the bioload from moving all your other livestock over, and something had to give, due to the system not being established enough to handle it all.

Unfortunately, the ones most likely to go would be the SPS corals as they need more stability and do not react as well to sudden sharp changes as other corals or even fish and invertebrates would.

Also, I do still think that even with adding bacteria ourselves with whatever product we choose to use during cycling, we still should be giving tanks (particularly larger ones) time to establish themselves properly. Just cause we poured some bacteria in, doesn't mean that all of it is still present one month later at the end of the cycling process. For all we know something could have gone wrong and the bacteria had all died by the time we start treating the tank, so all we did was add waste to the system, with nothing to break it down. Plus, more than likely alot of the bacteria we are trying to culture in the tank to cycle die during the process en masse, more so than they are reproducing as they have little to live off of, what with it being a brand new setup.

So if and when I setup a larger tank in the future, no matter how I choose to cycle, be it naturally or by dosing bacteria, I still plan to gold off on adding ANY SPS to it for at least half a year for the more forgiving ones (birdsnests, monti caps, etc.) and I would wait even longer to add Acros and other more difficult corals, even if I was only moving them from one tank to the new one and both tanks had the same parameters.

Just my personal thought though.

Sounds like I did quiet a few things wrong. Thanks for the tips!

 

[ScottB]

Sounds like I did quiet a few things wrong. Thanks for the tips!

Don't beat yourself up. We are all speculating -- but in a helpful way hopefully. Tank upgrades are challenging, require perseverance, but worth it in the end. Dirty up that biome just a tad and you will be ready in no time for sticks again.

 

[sevitz5]

I went minimal on rock in the tank, so today I got a container and put it in the fish closet. I added about 40 lbs of dry rock to it for added bio. I plumbed the drain from my frag tank into it then have it overflow into my sump. The inflow is around 100 gph and I have a maxi jet 600 in the bottom to keep the water moving.

 

[Billldg]

Sorry for your losses, your old tank was gorgeous!!! I personally feel you may have moved a little to fast. No matter how hard you try, no 2 tanks are the same. Don't be hard on yourself, it can and will happen to us all, including myself as I plan on going from a 120 gal tank to a 225 gal tank in the next year or so. I plan on using aquacultured live rock to help with the transition as I feel it has better bacteria than a bottle or what may be in our tanks. I plan on setting up a long term temporary tank to house my sps colonies and will use a few cheap sps tester frags to test new tank before I put the colonies in. Like I said, keep your head up, the silver lining is that you have a new canvas to start another masterpiece.

 

[El_Guapo13]

Don't beat yourself up. We are all speculating -- but in a helpful way hopefully. Tank upgrades are challenging, require perseverance, but worth it in the end. Dirty up that biome just a tad and you will be ready in no time for sticks again.

Agreed. Don't fret too much. A lot about this hobby (as with most things in life) is trial and error. We make mistakes, learn from them, and proceed to rock out. I myself have only had a saltwater tank for the past year. It has definitely been a learning experience.

 

[Worthy1]

Dam that was one nice looking tank! I just did similar recently on upgrading from a 2ft cube to a 4ft. Everything completely new with only a few select corals I didn't want to get rid of moved over. Around the 2month mark I couldn't resist picking up some frags.

I knew there would be a sketchy moment since the tank was still fairly young and I knew the bacteria hadn't built up to where it needed to be. Any bleaching that started to occur I quickly cut off or fragged where needed. That issue only lasted a week or so before it stopped. I then spent a few months getting ontop of Alk, calc and Mag parameters. They were swinging easily and wildly. All the SPS were resilient to the swings sure I wasn't getting growth but the swings weren't as critical as people make out.

Now 6months in I am getting good growth, frags have bounced back, even bleached frags have regained colour and are starting to grow. This is because the bacteria has had time. Having said that if I put in the load that it looks like you did then im sure I would have lost a lot to.

 

[Will Wohlers]

Not much advise different from everyone else I can give but i also think it's water related.

I'm responding to you less about advise (since everyone else has covered that pretty spot on) and more to just offer words of encouragement.

About 6 months ago a troubled child my wife and I had taken in dumped a bunch of bathroom products into my oldest tank. This was my pride and joy outside of my wife and daughters, and my longest running system. It's a 180 gallon that is wall to wall massive old acros and within about 2 hours my largest colony started rtn which set off a chain reaction and the rtn of almost every acro colony I owned. Some of which were not replaceable. I even had 2 homewrecker colonies that combined probably would have been almost soccer ball sized. I lost almost everthing despite my best efforts to save it. It was a total knife to the heart and left me feeling defeated. And questioning the point in even starting over with this tank. Every time I would look at this tank I would get depressed so for a couple months I just ignored it and put all my attention into my other systems.

With my wife's encouragement I began to look at it as an opportunity to start fresh with it and use the opportunity to make this tank everything i ever wanted it to be. It's slowly coming back together and recovering and I'm actually excited about this tank again.

It sucks man. It's lots of time, money, and emotion invested into your tank lost. With a tank as beautiful as you had, and all us experienced reefers know, you didn't get it to the point of that first picture with out a lot of highs and a whole lot of lows. Although this is probably the lowest low you've hit on your journey. You obviously have a rainbow stoney thumb. Pull up your boot straps and pull every bit of motivation you have from down deep and keep pushing on. Take this as a learning experience and forgive yourself. It's just a setback that we all deal with in this amazingly stressful but fulfilling hobby. Give it some time and it'll be better then ever and nothing more then a lesson learned on your reefing journey. Best of luck. I'll be watching your comeback and quietly cheering you on.
Will

 

[sevitz5]

Thanks all.