Opinions on high end corals?

[Chrisv.]

Too bad we can't all come together as hobbyists to drive the price back down to where it used to be LOL! I miss the good old days, when you could get a huge beautiful torch coral colony with several heads for 80 bucks or less. Just my 2 cents!

These chop shops treat reefers (especially new reefers) like addicts and they exploit them. This is why I always encourage people to go to their local reef clubs and look locally first. The frag from the local guy who has a coral that's practically growing out of the water is always going to be bigger and healthier than the frag from a person who imports a coral, chops it up into quarter inch frags and sells them all in a weekend by making a bunch of idiots click refresh instead of living their lives.

 

[igord]

Try to play it in your head with Gru's (from despicable me) accent.
- We see the coral
- We like the coral
- We buy the coral

The point is - I'm totally OK with high-end corals if it makes me happy and the price does not make me unhappy.

 

[Johnnyrainbowreefer]

What's your opinion on high end corals. Are they worth buying? Would they make you enough money per year to just buy few pieces of equipment and small things. Or is it just a look what i got thing.

For me it’s the beauty of the piece, and what it adds to my aquascape. I have purchased low end stuff on a whim and got disappointed with what I brought to the table. It’s not really bragging rights or anything, it’s more of the wow factor for me. I’d rather spend 650.00 on a sungod torch than spend 500 on a bunch of stuff that’s just boring to me. Just my personal experience. Great question btw.

 

[stephj03]

I would argue that stuff like WD, SCOP, Cherry bomb are almost in that range as well now.

As for torches, they're called HG for a reason. There aren't actually that many out there compared to common torches.

It's not like every LFS had a whole HG torch tank back in the day selling for $30/head.....

 

[mdb_talon]

I miss the good old days, when you could get a huge beautiful torch coral colony with several heads for 80 bucks or less. Just my 2 cents!

Haha i miss those days too....and the days i could fill up my gas tank for $10, but dont think either are coming back. To be fair though much of the price increases is not just on the retailer side. The price your LFS is paying for coral from a wholesaler today is exponentially more than it was a decade ago, and with increasing collection restrictions I imagine that is just going to continue getting worse.

 

[cancun]

Yeah but those good old days never really went away.

You can still get no name common zoas, torches, stags, etc for very reasonable prices.

There's actually a lot of really beautiful formerly high end corals that are very affordable now that they've been out for a while.

Pink Cadillac
PC Rainbow
SSC
Most no name LPS
Most no name shrooms

Almost all of these cost the same as entry level frags always have and yet are way nicer than what was commonly available for a good

These chop shops treat reefers (especially new reefers) like addicts and they exploit them. This is why I always encourage people to go to their local reef clubs and look locally first. The frag from the local guy who has a coral that's practically growing out of the water is always going to be bigger and healthier than the frag from a person who imports a coral, chops it up into quarter inch frags and sells them all in a weekend by making a bunch of idiots click refresh instead of living their lives.

I totally agree! I feel sorry for new reefers just getting into the hobby.

I have many corals I bought from reefers in my area, from others breaking down a tank, or frag swaps, and got nice big pieces at a very reasonable price.

Personally I spent 650.00 on a xtra large Red Carpet nem because I felt the price was ok for a red one, and the size. However I personally don't want to spend 200.00 a head or more for a high end torch or hammer coral. I saw a medium pink wall hammer the other day at a lfs in my area for 350.00!

Also it is the risk one must think about too. As previously mentioned.....before a newbie plunks down a bunch of money for a coral I would make sure I can properly take care of it.

All great points, and good discussion from the OP!

 

[stephj03]

This thread seems to pop up frequently and never seems to be fully honest with itself.

Regardless of how it starts, it always ends up pointing hate at premium offerings and how they are marketed and sold (coral, lights, pumps, supplements etc) and all the damage it does to new hobbyists and old school reefers.

Live sales are by and large a party foul but I'm sorry, if you did so little research that you bought a tiny frag of a common coral for $40 at a live sale that's on you and has little to do with the price point of a high end frag.

 

[cancun]

Haha i miss those days too....and the days i could fill up my gas tank for $10, but dont think either are coming back. To be fair though much of the price increases is not just on the retailer side. The price your LFS is paying for coral from a wholesaler today is exponentially more than it was a decade ago, and with increasing collection restrictions I imagine that is just going to continue getting worse.

Absolutely correct! I remember when I got my driver's license gas was just under a buck a gallon! LOL!

 

[Chrisv.]

This thread seems to pop up frequently and never seems to be fully honest with itself.

Regardless of how it starts, it always ends up pointing hate at premium offerings and how they are marketed and sold (coral, lights, pumps, supplements etc) and all the damage it does to new hobbyists and old school reefers.

Live sales are by and large a party foul but I'm sorry, if you did so little research that you bought a tiny frag of a common coral for $40 at a live sale that's on you and has little to do with the price point of a high end frag.

Oh I think the gear now is nothing short of incredible. It's expensive but so much better than back in the day. I will even concede that some of the expensive corals ARE very nice... Nicer than we had back in the day. I bought a couple jawbreakers and I can see them from across the room.

I just hate chop shops. They are a blight on the hobby. Back in the day Steve Tyree made people sit on a waiting list to get frags on a monthly basis. At least you knew he was keeping it long term. Now people frag their frags! People done even know what a full colony looks like. It's pathetic.

 

[ReefChasers]

As a vendor this thread is illuminating and lots of good feedback to take into consideration. An opinion from "the other side" is that you do have to make good money on certain items. Everybody wants things cheap cheap cheap but corals are actually kind of expensive. Whether direct importing or buying from USA sources there is always a cost. The indo/malay stuff is going to be the cheapest but also tends to be less hardy (if we are talking about SPS/torches etc). Direct importation is fraught with issues and requires a large capital investment (the indo/malay/vietnam guys don't ask for too much, but if you're placing say a 7000 dollar order in vietnam it's going to still have a 5-6k shipping charge).

That said, lots of things can go wrong that lead to losses. The vendors themselves (like us) have to deal with losses just like hobbiests deal with losses. Aquaculture facilities are expensive, and they have a high up-front cost if you are trying to do things right (not just fragging out of a tank in your basement). That money has to be earned back over time and the best way to do that is on some highly profitable items that are sought after that you can grow/maintain.

Another thing to consider is "Free shipping" and "29.99" shipping (we offer both) but lets be honest here I can't ship live coral to any of you for less than $50.00. Fedex is going to charge me $32-40 even if the package is small and you are close by. Then I have another $7-12 dollars in shipping materials (heat pack, styrofoam coolers etc). So when I offer you 29.99 shipping and you want a $20.00 coral frag... well you can see really quick how that math doesn't really add up. Business be out of business fast, or no employees, or never leave the basement, right?

If I got a 150-200 dollar cost into a medium sized acro colony you have to understand that I might lose that money.Not every colony is going to make it. I might ship you a frag and it might die in transit, or within the 48-hour guarantee window and then I have just lost $50 shipping it to you + the cost of the frag that I now have to replace. This happens pretty often as vendors we do our best to mitigate HOW OFTEN but when you are a reputable seller (and not a basement dweller) then you have to be responsive to these issues and give people a fair shake. You can't be like 'oh well sorry it died on you in 48 hours guess you're SOL'. No you have to refund/credit/replace/reship etc.

Anyways, this is all very high stakes, a $400 shipment could get delayed and lost completely (can and does happen to no fault of anyone but FedEx or UPS).

At the end of the day, a reputable business that seeks to grow (Expand facility, expand operations,have employees, make profit) has no choice but to make money on hot items when they can. There isn't anything "Wrong" with that at the end of the day it's what the market will bare that dictates the price.

That said, there is a lot of feedback here to take into consideration and I can't speak for all coral vendors out there but we will definitely try to improve what we do based on some of this feedback.

 

[cancun]

As a vendor this thread is illuminating and lots of good feedback to take into consideration. An opinion from "the other side" is that you do have to make good money on certain items. Everybody wants things cheap cheap cheap but corals are actually kind of expensive. Whether direct importing or buying from USA sources there is always a cost. The indo/malay stuff is going to be the cheapest but also tends to be less hardy (if we are talking about SPS/torches etc). Direct importation is fraught with issues and requires a large capital investment (the indo/malay/vietnam guys don't ask for too much, but if you're placing say a 7000 dollar order in vietnam it's going to still have a 5-6k shipping charge).

That said, lots of things can go wrong that lead to losses. The vendors themselves (like us) have to deal with losses just like hobbiests deal with losses. Aquaculture facilities are expensive, and they have a high up-front cost if you are trying to do things right (not just fragging out of a tank in your basement). That money has to be earned back over time and the best way to do that is on some highly profitable items that are sought after that you can grow/maintain.

Another thing to consider is "Free shipping" and "29.99" shipping (we offer both) but lets be honest here I can't ship live coral to any of you for less than $50.00. Fedex is going to charge me $32-40 even if the package is small and you are close by. Then I have another $7-12 dollars in shipping materials (heat pack, styrofoam coolers etc). So when I offer you 29.99 shipping and you want a $20.00 coral frag... well you can see really quick how that math doesn't really add up. Business be out of business fast, or no employees, or never leave the basement, right?

If I got a 150-200 dollar cost into a medium sized acro colony you have to understand that I might lose that money.Not every colony is going to make it. I might ship you a frag and it might die in transit, or within the 48-hour guarantee window and then I have just lost $50 shipping it to you + the cost of the frag that I now have to replace. This happens pretty often as vendors we do our best to mitigate HOW OFTEN but when you are a reputable seller (and not a basement dweller) then you have to be responsive to these issues and give people a fair shake. You can't be like 'oh well sorry it died on you in 48 hours guess you're SOL'. No you have to refund/credit/replace/reship etc.

Anyways, this is all very high stakes, a $400 shipment could get delayed and lost completely (can and does happen to no fault of anyone but FedEx or UPS).

At the end of the day, a reputable business that seeks to grow (Expand facility, expand operations,have employees, make profit) has no choice but to make money on hot items when they can. There isn't anything "Wrong" with that at the end of the day it's what the market will bare that dictates the price.

That said, there is a lot of feedback here to take into consideration and I can't speak for all coral vendors out there but we will definitely try to improve what we do based on some of this feedback.

Definitely a great point! Thanks for taking the time to comment! 8)

 

[Cjeippert]

My ego won't let me have cheaper frags. The dream is for designer pieces like gmk and jf homewreckers that cover the tank

Nice! Homewrecker dominate tank!

 

[MaxTremors]

I would argue that stuff like WD, SCOP, Cherry bomb are almost in that range as well now.

As for torches, they're called HG for a reason. There aren't actually that many out there compared to common torches.

It's not like every LFS had a whole HG torch tank back in the day selling for $30/head.....

There are obviously some less common color morphs, but the gold varieties are literally the most common and most collected variety, but they’re sold as something special because the gold torch trend caught on. Corals that we get now are different than what we had 20 years ago because Australia wasn’t exporting corals, but there have always been more desirable or higher end varieties, the prices were never this out of control though.

 

[ADAM]

It’s what the individual likes… my Holy Grail and Master strains of torches warm my heart when looking at them. I like my “basic” purple too, but I’d sell it tomorrow to make room for another Master/HG.

 

[Heres_doe_]

For me it’s the beauty of the piece, and what it adds to my aquascape. I have purchased low end stuff on a whim and got disappointed with what I brought to the table. It’s not really bragging rights or anything, it’s more of the wow factor for me. I’d rather spend 650.00 on a sungod torch than spend 500 on a bunch of stuff that’s just boring to me. Just my personal experience. Great question btw.

Perfect now bless me with a frag lol (beautiful tank)

 

[Heres_doe_]

As a vendor this thread is illuminating and lots of good feedback to take into consideration. An opinion from "the other side" is that you do have to make good money on certain items. Everybody wants things cheap cheap cheap but corals are actually kind of expensive. Whether direct importing or buying from USA sources there is always a cost. The indo/malay stuff is going to be the cheapest but also tends to be less hardy (if we are talking about SPS/torches etc). Direct importation is fraught with issues and requires a large capital investment (the indo/malay/vietnam guys don't ask for too much, but if you're placing say a 7000 dollar order in vietnam it's going to still have a 5-6k shipping charge).

That said, lots of things can go wrong that lead to losses. The vendors themselves (like us) have to deal with losses just like hobbiests deal with losses. Aquaculture facilities are expensive, and they have a high up-front cost if you are trying to do things right (not just fragging out of a tank in your basement). That money has to be earned back over time and the best way to do that is on some highly profitable items that are sought after that you can grow/maintain.

Another thing to consider is "Free shipping" and "29.99" shipping (we offer both) but lets be honest here I can't ship live coral to any of you for less than $50.00. Fedex is going to charge me $32-40 even if the package is small and you are close by. Then I have another $7-12 dollars in shipping materials (heat pack, styrofoam coolers etc). So when I offer you 29.99 shipping and you want a $20.00 coral frag... well you can see really quick how that math doesn't really add up. Business be out of business fast, or no employees, or never leave the basement, right?

If I got a 150-200 dollar cost into a medium sized acro colony you have to understand that I might lose that money.Not every colony is going to make it. I might ship you a frag and it might die in transit, or within the 48-hour guarantee window and then I have just lost $50 shipping it to you + the cost of the frag that I now have to replace. This happens pretty often as vendors we do our best to mitigate HOW OFTEN but when you are a reputable seller (and not a basement dweller) then you have to be responsive to these issues and give people a fair shake. You can't be like 'oh well sorry it died on you in 48 hours guess you're SOL'. No you have to refund/credit/replace/reship etc.

Anyways, this is all very high stakes, a $400 shipment could get delayed and lost completely (can and does happen to no fault of anyone but FedEx or UPS).

At the end of the day, a reputable business that seeks to grow (Expand facility, expand operations,have employees, make profit) has no choice but to make money on hot items when they can. There isn't anything "Wrong" with that at the end of the day it's what the market will bare that dictates the price.

That said, there is a lot of feedback here to take into consideration and I can't speak for all coral vendors out there but we will definitely try to improve what we do based on some of this feedback.

That was a great read. I totally agree with you. When you have a reputation to maintain as the best you gotta eat losses at times wether u like it or not.

 

[Buckster]

I'm all for fellow reefers selling the frags at a reasonable price. I've taken trips to pick some up. I've had some not survive and I don't freak out as I didn't need a second mortgage to acquire them!

 

[DracoKat]

As much as I love some of the high end corals, I can't justify the price for several reasons that most already mentioned here. But I don't see a reason to spend hundreds on a small piece of frag if I am the only one to appreciate it. It's like catching a huge fish that got away and no one can share the excitement but yourself.

I go for pieces I personally like and not worry about rarity or popularity.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

What's your opinion on high end corals. Are they worth buying? Would they make you enough money per year to just buy few pieces of equipment and small things. Or is it just a look what i got thing.

In my ridiculously unqualified opinion, the simple answer is no. The 'high end' corals may be nicer to look at when blasted by the right lighting spectrum..but chasing after the latest and greatest usually comes with a higher risk of coral mortality. There is a reason the newer corals are not prolific and cheap and it is not just because of lack of initial supply. These corals have not necessarily gone through the 'domestication' process of adapting to tank life whereas the older ones that are highly prolific seemed to have been able to make it in many different tanks and many different skill levels. Not trying to say the high ends cant be aquacultured, as obviously they can, but probably more by the more advanced hobbiest.

 

[Chrisv.]

As a vendor this thread is illuminating and lots of good feedback to take into consideration. An opinion from "the other side" is that you do have to make good money on certain items. Everybody wants things cheap cheap cheap but corals are actually kind of expensive. Whether direct importing or buying from USA sources there is always a cost. The indo/malay stuff is going to be the cheapest but also tends to be less hardy (if we are talking about SPS/torches etc). Direct importation is fraught with issues and requires a large capital investment (the indo/malay/vietnam guys don't ask for too much, but if you're placing say a 7000 dollar order in vietnam it's going to still have a 5-6k shipping charge).

That said, lots of things can go wrong that lead to losses. The vendors themselves (like us) have to deal with losses just like hobbiests deal with losses. Aquaculture facilities are expensive, and they have a high up-front cost if you are trying to do things right (not just fragging out of a tank in your basement). That money has to be earned back over time and the best way to do that is on some highly profitable items that are sought after that you can grow/maintain.

Another thing to consider is "Free shipping" and "29.99" shipping (we offer both) but lets be honest here I can't ship live coral to any of you for less than $50.00. Fedex is going to charge me $32-40 even if the package is small and you are close by. Then I have another $7-12 dollars in shipping materials (heat pack, styrofoam coolers etc). So when I offer you 29.99 shipping and you want a $20.00 coral frag... well you can see really quick how that math doesn't really add up. Business be out of business fast, or no employees, or never leave the basement, right?

If I got a 150-200 dollar cost into a medium sized acro colony you have to understand that I might lose that money.Not every colony is going to make it. I might ship you a frag and it might die in transit, or within the 48-hour guarantee window and then I have just lost $50 shipping it to you + the cost of the frag that I now have to replace. This happens pretty often as vendors we do our best to mitigate HOW OFTEN but when you are a reputable seller (and not a basement dweller) then you have to be responsive to these issues and give people a fair shake. You can't be like 'oh well sorry it died on you in 48 hours guess you're SOL'. No you have to refund/credit/replace/reship etc.

Anyways, this is all very high stakes, a $400 shipment could get delayed and lost completely (can and does happen to no fault of anyone but FedEx or UPS).

At the end of the day, a reputable business that seeks to grow (Expand facility, expand operations,have employees, make profit) has no choice but to make money on hot items when they can. There isn't anything "Wrong" with that at the end of the day it's what the market will bare that dictates the price.

That said, there is a lot of feedback here to take into consideration and I can't speak for all coral vendors out there but we will definitely try to improve what we do based on some of this feedback.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It seems like although there is a bigger up front cost, there is a real benefit to sustained aquaculture and long term care of corals in the US.

I feel like this model is much less present in the hobby than it was. Back in the day when "Mr. Coral" (a guy from md) started chopping up recently imported colonies, there was outrage. Now it seems that his model is the rule rather than the exception.

Honestly, if the expense of aquaculture is what's driving up prices, one thing that I think would make the pill a LOT easier to swallow is better communication about the aquaculture business and the associated expenses. Even people who are "doing it right" and at scale fail on this front. ORA for example, could have an amazing YouTube channel where they discuss the industry and what it takes to go from a coral on a reef to a frag in your tank. Nevertheless, I think that a substantial segment of the sales are coming from some random dude who is ordering wild colonies and has a band saw. It's not a good look for the hobby and it's terrible for the environment. If I buy a coral from a vendor, my friend should be able to call them six months later and buy a frag of the same coral. Corals should be big enough to stand a decent shot at survival. Many new reefers don't know that a 1 cm frag will have different colors than the real colony, given that on a tiny frag everything is a growth edge.

I think there are real opportunities to be a part of the solution.

Generating frantic feverish "fear of missing out" driven sales is the opposite of what the hobby needs. Look at the BRS model. They know that if we're all successful, we will buy a lot more stuff. If buyers have a split second to decide if they want a coral or not, how can they contemplate where it will fit in their tank. Sellers need to stop treating people like addicts that they want to get hyped up to the point of making irrational decisions.

Notice: nowhere in there did I say you can't charge what you need to. I just think it needs to exploit buyers and most importantly, the wild reef, a lot less.