Origin of nitrate/phosphate?

[DudeBruh]

What causes these parameters and what is an ideal range to be kept at?

 

[Brew12]

What causes these parameters and what is an ideal range to be kept at?

The main source is the food you add to your tank. The PO4 is normally introduced directly. The uneaten food, along with food waste, breaks down into ammonia. Bacteria then convert the ammonia to nitrite. Different bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate. A healthy tank needs both.

You will see lots of opinions on this. I feel fine if I am in this range.

NO3: 3ppm to 30ppm
PO4: 0.02 to 0.08 (and I don't really worry until above 0.15)

That said, consistency is key imo. I don't want my NO3 bouncing around between 3ppm and 30ppm. I just don't mind it being in that range.

 

[DudeBruh]

Thanks, I was a little unclear. As u said many thoughts on This.

My PO4 is sitting at your max high range of .08. My nitrates are through the roof. It doesn’t matter how many water changes or the quantity of water.

In your opinion: Does this mean my rock is converting ammonia to quickly ahead of my bioload? Or does the tank just need to mature? Am I ready for a Fuge?Or am I fighting something else?

How is nitrate usually sent out in a tank?

 

[Brew12]

Thanks, I was a little unclear. As u said many thoughts on This.

My PO4 is sitting at your max high range of .08. My nitrates are through the roof. It doesn’t matter how many water changes or the quantity of water.

In your opinion: Does this mean my rock is converting ammonia to quickly ahead of my bioload? Or does the tank just need to mature? Am I ready for a Fuge?Or am I fighting something else?

How is nitrate usually sent out in a tank?

I'm not a big fan of water changes to fix nitrates. I also believe you should feed your tank what it needs, regardless of what nutrients are in your water. This doesn't mean you aren't feeding too much, only that nutrient levels in water shouldn't be your only determination. If you don't have ammonia, it means the bacteria on your rock are doing their job.

I definitely think you are ready for a fuge. If you have high nitrates and plenty of PO4, you should grow algae easily. Growing algae is the most effective method of exporting nitrates in my opinion.

Skimmers will also help reduce nitrates. You will also hear about things like carbon dosing to help with NO3. The carbon source (vodka or vinegar are the most common) act as a fertilizer for bacteria growth which then consume the nitrates. They get removed via a skimmer or are eaten by stuff in the tank.

There are other methods, such as creating a low oxygen area for denitrification. Some people run bioreactors. Lots of methods, but growing algae in a fuge, chaeto reactor, or algae turf scrubber is what I prefer.

 

[vetteguy53081]

It start with food and organics and ends with breakdown and DE-nitrification. The remnants are nitrates and Phosphates. positive bacteria are your workers as is filtration

 

[redfishbluefish]

The other source is rock that wasn't cured.

 

[DudeBruh]

Do corals or other desirables in your D.T. besides macro algeas consume these?

 

[redfishbluefish]

All living things need nitrates and phosphates.

 

[DudeBruh]

The other source is rock that wasn't cured.

So as I now start to put together and buy the pieces for my Fuge , I should cycle my dry rock rubble?

All living things need nitrates and phosphates.

Probably worded that wrong.... could I use some of the soft or “weed” corals to bring down my levels?

 

[DudeBruh]

Also not to completely de-rail the topic but what’s the general thought on ATS vs Fuge here? Seen it was briefly touched in 2016 and in depth in 2013, but as quickly as tech upgrades and moves, especially in this hobby , r these still true.

Seen marine depot and LA more recently touch the topic and nothing but praise for ATS over reactors and Fuge. But again there business is to sell equipment, so I’d rather ask fellow hobbyists

 

[redfishbluefish]

So as I now start to put together and buy the pieces for my Fuge , I should cycle my dry rock rubble?.....

Yes to cycling....but you also need to cure the rock....and this can occur concurrently.

Curing is getting the old dead stuff out....releasing nitrates and phosphates, while cycling is "seeding" new life into the rock. Curing requires saltwater and a powerhead and that's it. Monitor nitrates/phosphates. When they get high, do a water change....a 100% water change is OK. Continue to monitor, and water change as needed. When nitrates/phosphates are no longer climbing, the cure is done. Typically the cycle occurs during the cure. Cures can take roughly between a month to 2 months. Skipping the cure typically results in a tank with high nitrates/phosphates -> Algae bloom.

.......Probably worded that wrong.... could I use some of the soft or “weed” corals to bring down my levels?

If you had a very large fuge/sump I guess you could use a "weed" coral. However, export of nitrates and phosphates are typically accomplished by fast growing organisms.....algae and bacteria are examples. Because that are rapid growers, the nitrates and phosphate drop relatively quick.

 

[DudeBruh]

Yes to cycling....but you also need to cure the rock....and this can occur concurrently.

Curing is getting the old dead stuff out....releasing nitrates and phosphates, while cycling is "seeding" new life into the rock. Curing requires saltwater and a powerhead and that's it. Monitor nitrates/phosphates. When they get high, do a water change....a 100% water change is OK. Continue to monitor, and water change as needed. When nitrates/phosphates are no longer climbing, the cure is done. Typically the cycle occurs during the cure. Cures can take roughly between a month to 2 months. Skipping the cure typically results in a tank with high nitrates/phosphates -> Algae bloom.





If you had a very large fuge/sump I guess you could use a "weed" coral. However, export of nitrates and phosphates are typically accomplished by fast growing organisms.....algae and bacteria are examples. Because that are rapid growers, the nitrates and phosphate drop relatively quick.

Questions for the curing. Does water have to be heated? Could I just place the Fuge rubble in a tote with a powerhead after scrubbing rock of all dead things. Monitor levels and to help “seed” when would I add bottled bacteria? Or is it it’s own thing independtly ?

 

[Flippers4pups]

So as I now start to put together and buy the pieces for my Fuge , I should cycle my dry rock rubble?


Probably worded that wrong.... could I use some of the soft or “weed” corals to bring down my levels?

This may sound crazy, but depending on your N03, your P04 could be limited.

Loosely related to the "Redfield ratio", rasing P04 will bring down N03. (Within reason)

I recently went through this. My N03 was climbing over 40ppm and my P04 measured "0.00" (Hannah)

Dosing seachem's flourish phosphorus over the course of several days brought up my P04, which I'm turn dropped my N03 to 20ppm.

This approach isn't a long term fix. Running a refugium or carbon dosing can reduce high N03. I just started my refugium, so it's not had time to kick in yet, thus the P04 dosing.

 

[Brew12]

Also not to completely de-rail the topic but what’s the general thought on ATS vs Fuge here? Seen it was briefly touched in 2016 and in depth in 2013, but as quickly as tech upgrades and moves, especially in this hobby , r these still true.

They all work on the same basic process. Its a matter of space and end goals. To me, a fuge does two things. Nutrient export and growing small organisms like copepods. An ATS gives you the most nutrient removal per square inch of space. An ATS will still grow pods, it just doesn't do it as well so it gives you the smallest boost to those organisms. On the other end, a fuge does the best at providing pods but takes a larger footprint for nutrient reduction. The chaeto reactor falls somewhere in-between on both. Takes a little more space than an ATS, does a little better job growing pods.

 

[DudeBruh]

Well my nitrates are 160 with the API test kit and 100 with the salifert. That’s As high as both will measure. My phosphates at .08.

I’m hoping a Refugium will help me out. My system is someone’s “getting out of the hobby sale” and I’m slowly adjusting things to suit me. His sump was an aqeon pro2 very undersized and only one drain, no space for a refugium without doing away with the skimmer. I’ve found a used trigger sump , sapphire 34, and hope to get it moving sooner than later to correct my levels.

 

[Brew12]

Well my nitrates are 160 with the API test kit and 100 with the salifert. That’s As high as both will measure. My phosphates at .08.

I’m hoping a Refugium will help me out. My system is someone’s “getting out of the hobby sale” and I’m slowly adjusting things to suit me. His sump was an aqeon pro2 very undersized and only one drain, no space for a refugium without doing away with the skimmer. I’ve found a used trigger sump , sapphire 34, and hope to get it moving sooner than later to correct my levels.

With nitrates that high, a water change would help. I just don't like it for long term correction.

 

[DudeBruh]

With nitrates that high, a water change would help. I just don't like it for long term correction.

Doing one as we speak. I’ve been told two different methods as far as frequency and quantity but I figured either is better than nothing. 30% every 4/5 days and 10% daily. However 10 days of each and nothing has been budged my nitrate levels

 

[redfishbluefish]

Questions for the curing. Does water have to be heated? Could I just place the Fuge rubble in a tote with a powerhead after scrubbing rock of all dead things. Monitor levels and to help “seed” when would I add bottled bacteria? Or is it it’s own thing independtly ?

No heat needed assuming it's done in a conditioned room of the house, and not in your unheated garage in the middle of winter in North Dakota.

I would not "seed" until you start to see nitrates/phosphates start to drop from water changes.

 

[DudeBruh]

No heat needed assuming it's done in a conditioned room of the house, and not in your unheated garage in the middle of winter in North Dakota.

I would not "seed" until you start to see nitrates/phosphates start to drop from water changes.

It would be in my unfinished basement/ crawl space. Temp is a little cooler or hotter depending but based on usual temp should be fine. I’ll use existing pieces that have fell of my aquascape structure to get my Fuge going and use the rubble Ill cure to reattach to my PVC structure down the road. Function before beauty.
Might as well cure all my rock in case I want to use some extra down the road for some island or who knows what.
Once cycled how do I keep it ready to go?