Out of whack phosphate and nitrate.

[Fishfreak2009]

Having issues getting my phosphate and nitrate balanced. Tank is a very heavily stocked mixed reef, 75 gallons, with a 20 gallon refugium full of Caulerpa, a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and was started in December with about 100 lbs of dry rock (old Pukani rock). We've been struggling with dinflagellates for about a month now, and have been monitoring levels pretty closely. We can't seem to get the nitrate above 0.

Current levels:
pH 8.4
Alkalinity 8.6 (normally sits closer to 10, but has come down since we tried skipping a water change for 2 weeks to see if we could get nitrates up)
Magnesium 1430
Calcium 435 (normally 450 but dropped for same reason above)
Phosphate 0.2 (normally at 0.1 but has gone up since shutting off skimmer for a week and skipping last week's water change)
Nitrate 0 (cannot get it to go up, even shutting off the skimmer and feeding the overstocked fish 4-5x daily with a mix of frozen, pellets, and live baby brine.

Any suggestions? Should I dose nitrates? And can I safely dose nitrates without a dosing pump? I've never ran a controller or dosing pumps before, and prefer to do things by hand.

 

[blaxsun]

I'm going to go out on a limb and opine that a 20-gallon refugium on a 75-gallon system (in addition to the skimmer) might be too effective in controlling nitrates. What's your total sump size? Yes, you can dose by hand if need be (even with dosing equipment, most of us still supplement some things by hand).

Out of curiosity, what kind of kits are you using for testing your parameters?

 

[Grumblez]

I've given up on getting my nitrate above 0. I had GHA that I figured was using it all up and now dino. My dino has been mostly contained to the sand bed manual removal combined with bumping up temp and dosing the Aqua forest mud seem to have all helped.

No skimmer, no fuge, moderate stock and auto feeder 2x a day only 5% or so water changes every other week to stir up the sand bed. I could dose nitrate but getting nitrate up is not guaranteed to eliminate dino. Some dinos just thrive in low nutrient conditions

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I'm going to go out on a limb and opine that a 20-gallon refugium on a 75-gallon system (in addition to the skimmer) might be too effective in controlling nitrates. What's your total sump size? Yes, you can dose by hand if need be (even with dosing equipment, most of us still supplement some things by hand).

Out of curiosity, what kind of kits are you using for testing your parameters?

Total sump is 20 gallons, so refugium is closer to 6-7 gallons. I'm testing parameters using Salifert tests.

 

[blaxsun]

Total sump is 20 gallons, so refugium is closer to 6-7 gallons. I'm testing parameters using Salifert tests.

That makes more sense (that's still a decent-sized refugium). Salifert kits are usually pretty good, but I do prefer Nyos for nitrates and phosphates as they're easier to read (not that you need to switch).

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I've given up on getting my nitrate above 0. I had GHA that I figured was using it all up and now dino. My dino has been mostly contained to the sand bed manual removal combined with bumping up temp and dosing the Aqua forest mud seem to have all helped.

No skimmer, no fuge, moderate stock and auto feeder 2x a day only 5% or so water changes every other week to stir up the sand bed. I could dose nitrate but getting nitrate up is not guaranteed to eliminate dino. Some dinos just thrive in low nutrient conditions

I tried raising temps, had them at 82 for a couple weeks, and it just made the corals grow faster, using the alk even faster. Had no effect on the dinos that I could see. So I lowered the temp back to 78, and am going to try dosing nitrates. Overall, the corals still look great (1 gorgonian always gets covered in dinos and is angry about it) and I had 1 acro frag bleach out completely (it was only added a couple days ago, went completely white overnight), but nothing else seems worse for wear. I just don't want things to get worse, and I'd love to get the dinoflagellates cleared up.

I'm considering dosing ESV B-Ionic Nitrate, following instructions on the bottle, to see if I can get those levels up.

The Caulerpa in the sump stopped growing (but hasn't died) when the nitrates tanked, and the coralline algae is still growing in the tank, steadily popping up all over the rocks (and using the alk and calcium in the process. Honestly, I'm really hoping that dosing nitrate will allow the Caulerpa to strip the phosphates out.

I always struggled in previous systems with high nitrates and phosphates, and a combo of an oversized skimmer, and a fuge full of Caulerpa always solved those issues and left me with excellent parameters. Set this tank up the same way, if anything I feed more and do fewer water changes, and now I can't keep nitrates up...

 

[Grumblez]

I tried raising temps, had them at 82 for a couple weeks, and it just made the corals grow faster, using the alk even faster. Had no effect on the dinos that I could see. So I lowered the temp back to 78, and am going to try dosing nitrates. Overall, the corals still look great (1 gorgonian always gets covered in dinos and is angry about it) and I had 1 acro frag bleach out completely (it was only added a couple days ago, went completely white overnight), but nothing else seems worse for wear. I just don't want things to get worse, and I'd love to get the dinoflagellates cleared up.

Yeah, I would try dosing some micribacter 7 or something in addition to raising the temperature. My speculation is that the increased temperature helps in some cases because it allows bacteria to out compete dinos.

Can always try slowly dosing nitrates to see if it helps with things and or the dino hydrogen peroxide/ black out protocols.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Yeah, I would try dosing some micribacter 7 or something in addition to raising the temperature. My speculation is that the increased temperature helps in some cases because it allows bacteria to out compete dinos.

Can always try slowly dosing nitrates to see if it helps with things and or the dino hydrogen peroxide/ black out protocols.

Already dosing H2O2 at 1mL per 5 gallons 3x daily and dosing microbacter7 once weekly and PNS sauce 2x weekly

 

[vetteguy53081]

Assuming you have no false readings. My best success for nitrates and Phosphates are use of ChemiPure blue or elite which bring them down and keep them in check. Blue is milder than elite
If your no3 and po4 are elevated, you would get cyano and not Dino.
Any pics under white lights you can provide for confirmation of what you are battling? Not sure how treatments are being recommended without confirming what you have. Again, pics will help

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Assuming you have no false readings. My best success for nitrates and Phosphates are use of ChemiPure blue or elite which bring them down and keep them in check. Blue is milder than elite
If your no3 and po4 are elevated, you would get cyano and not Dino.
Any pics under white lights you can provide for confirmation of what you are battling? Not sure how treatments are being recommended without confirming what you have. Again, pics will help

Tests have been done multiple times, and confirmed once with a friend's hanna tests. Avoided chemipure as it pulls nitrate and phosphate. Definitely dinoflagellates, confirmed under microscope as Amphidinium spp.

 

[Lavey29]

I had to double dose neophos and neonitro for multiple weeks when my tank was newer to get measurable numbers. Then for multiple months both nitrates and phosphate were running at elevated levels. The fuge has now seemed to balance everything out nicely for the past month with 10ppm nitrates and .05 phosphate these numbers appear to be holding steady now with no change to my feeding or biweekly water change. Tank is 11 months old now so I think I'm reaching a new level of maturity that's is helping stabilize things.

How old is your tank? If normal things like feeding and less skimming aren't helping your numbers then don't be hesitant to try neophos and neonitro. You don't want bottomed out parameters which will hurt corals and cause algae dino issues too.

 

[Lavey29]

Tests have been done multiple times, and confirmed once with a friend's hanna tests. Avoided chemipure as it pulls nitrate and phosphate. Definitely dinoflagellates, confirmed under microscope as Amphidinium spp.

I battled similar for multiple months always on the sandbed not on the rocks. Went away at night. PNS probio helped clean my sand up. It's a natural bacteria supplement and I dose it twice a week now.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I had to double dose neophos and neonitro for multiple weeks when my tank was newer to get measurable numbers. Then for multiple months both nitrates and phosphate were running at elevated levels. The fuge has now seemed to balance everything out nicely for the past month with 10ppm nitrates and .05 phosphate these numbers appear to be holding steady now with no change to my feeding or biweekly water change. Tank is 11 months old now so I think I'm reaching a new level of maturity that's is helping stabilize things.

How old is your tank? If normal things like feeding and less skimming aren't helping your numbers then don't be hesitant to try neophos and neonitro. You don't want bottomed out parameters which will hurt corals and cause algae dino issues too.

Pretty sure age is my primary issue. Tank was started in December.

 

[Lavey29]

Pretty sure age is my primary issue. Tank was started in December.

Yes, you have very little biodiversity if only 2 months age on the tank. It is going to be difficult to keep all your corals healthy in a new tank. Very experienced reefers can do it but the rest of us are not experienced enough to pull it off. Your tank is going to go through much change the first year. Obviously you are aware of the importance of parameters and how they affect coral health and nuisance algae in your tank. You will probably want to focus on increasing biodiversity. Dosing phytoplankton will help promote your microfauna. PNS probio is great for corals and minimizing detritus but it does also lower nitrates and phosphate slightly. With your dinos I would cut lights back to 8 hours with blue and UV, no whites. Siphon what you can, dose neophos and neonitro if you need to.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Yes, you have very little biodiversity if only 2 months age on the tank. It is going to be difficult to keep all your corals healthy in a new tank. Very experienced reefers can do it but the rest of us are not experienced enough to pull it off. Your tank is going to go through much change the first year. Obviously you are aware of the importance of parameters and how they affect coral health and nuisance algae in your tank. You will probably want to focus on increasing biodiversity. Dosing phytoplankton will help promote your microfauna. PNS probio is great for corals and minimizing detritus but it does also lower nitrates and phosphate slightly. With your dinos I would cut lights back to 8 hours with blue and UV, no whites. Siphon what you can, dose neophos and neonitro if you need to.

No way am I dosing phosphate. It is too high (0.2). I try to keep it around 0.05 normally. Not my first rodeo, I've been keeping saltwater and reefs since 2003.

Definitely suffering from lack of diversity. Started with Microbacter, PNS, and Biospira, added a small piece of old live rock from a local reefer's tank, and feed the tank with a blend of live phyto daily. Also regularly add 4-5 varieties of copepods. I used to run tanks with live rock, and do not like the man-made stuff, which is why I bought someone's old dry pukani rather than the caribsea liferock or marco rock to start this tank. I also added a rock I brought back home from St Kitts covered in coralline algae to help seed it in the tank, and all the corals have done very well and continue to grow, save 1 acro that did an RTN within 48 hrs of introduction, but had also popped off the frag plug and landed on an Acan echinata. All the other corals grow well, acros are encrusting and showing good colors and growth.

I am going to dose nitrate, and will see how things respond. I ordered ESV B-ionic Nitrate to manually dose with, and hopefully get my levels up to around 5ppm, as that's where I normally kept it in my older systems. Also harvested 2 big handfuls of macroalgae (mainly caulerpa, but also a little red pompom) from the refugium today. Left about half of it in there still.

 

[Lavey29]

No way am I dosing phosphate. It is too high (0.2). I try to keep it around 0.05 normally. Not my first rodeo, I've been keeping saltwater and reefs since 2003.

Definitely suffering from lack of diversity. Started with Microbacter, PNS, and Biospira, added a small piece of old live rock from a local reefer's tank, and feed the tank with a blend of live phyto daily. Also regularly add 4-5 varieties of copepods. I used to run tanks with live rock, and do not like the man-made stuff, which is why I bought someone's old dry pukani rather than the caribsea liferock or marco rock to start this tank. I also added a rock I brought back home from St Kitts covered in coralline algae to help seed it in the tank, and all the corals have done very well and continue to grow, save 1 acro that did an RTN within 48 hrs of introduction, but had also popped off the frag plug and landed on an Acan echinata. All the other corals grow well, acros are encrusting and showing good colors and growth.

I am going to dose nitrate, and will see how things respond. I ordered ESV B-ionic Nitrate to manually dose with, and hopefully get my levels up to around 5ppm, as that's where I normally kept it in my older systems. Also harvested 2 big handfuls of macroalgae (mainly caulerpa, but also a little red pompom) from the refugium today. Left about half of it in there still.

Well if you added that good live rock you will be ahead in the process for sure and sounds like you are checking every box. Yes .05 phosphate is good that is where mine is and my nitrates are holding 10 to 12 now which is perfect for LPS. Obviously if you have dinos forming something bottomed out like you noted your nitrates have so hopefully dosing will remedy that situation. Good luck with your tank.

 

[Dan_P]

Having issues getting my phosphate and nitrate balanced. Tank is a very heavily stocked mixed reef, 75 gallons, with a 20 gallon refugium full of Caulerpa, a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and was started in December with about 100 lbs of dry rock (old Pukani rock). We've been struggling with dinflagellates for about a month now, and have been monitoring levels pretty closely. We can't seem to get the nitrate above 0.

Current levels:
pH 8.4
Alkalinity 8.6 (normally sits closer to 10, but has come down since we tried skipping a water change for 2 weeks to see if we could get nitrates up)
Magnesium 1430
Calcium 435 (normally 450 but dropped for same reason above)
Phosphate 0.2 (normally at 0.1 but has gone up since shutting off skimmer for a week and skipping last week's water change)
Nitrate 0 (cannot get it to go up, even shutting off the skimmer and feeding the overstocked fish 4-5x daily with a mix of frozen, pellets, and live baby brine.

Any suggestions? Should I dose nitrates? And can I safely dose nitrates without a dosing pump? I've never ran a controller or dosing pumps before, and prefer to do things by hand.

If you are struggling to increase nitrates, get rid of the macro algae. Deal with phosphate reduction with a small amount of GFO.

 

[olonmv]

My numbers bottomed out when my refugium started to do its job too well (chamber 2 on a 13.5). I got cyano and just kinda lived with it. I didn’t want to feed heavier to bring my nutrients up outta fear of going overboard and raising nutrients too high. After a lot of reading through this site, I decided it was time to start dosing. Did testing every other day for about 2 weeks to see what consumption was and started dosing neonitro n neophos in conjunction with microbacter7. Went about my dosing/feeding routine without testing for a week after figuring out my tank consumption and was pleased to see that my numbers were exactly where I like them. I did do a sand swap in the middle of the ordeal(didn’t affect my tank mates nor my levels) which helped my cyano but it slightly crept back. Cyano is reducing and my numbers are finally stable with dosing.