Outta my league DIY LED

[metalsniper]

Outta my league DIY LED, I'm going to need some help

I will begin this with a bit of a disclaimer:

I am beginning this project well aware that I do not possess the know how to complete it; However, I intend to learn what I need to. And while I know it would be easier to buy some pre-made hunk of light from with a fancy name on it, I want a little bit of me to go into this light and my tank.

The Beginning:
What I imagine to start, to learn how, is a 9'' square heat sink with 16 led mounted thereon. I am thinking I will drill and tap the heat sink and use thermal paste and nylon screws to attack the leds. From there, I think 4 dimmable buckpucks each controlling 4 lights. Probably 700 mA dimmable buckpucks will do the trick.

I would like to do a custom metal or printed plastic casing for the whole thing with a nice fan set into the case, with an offset glass panel tank side to prevent splashing and provide UV filtration. This would be accomplished with 5 screws, one in each corner and one in the middle with something like a 1'' spacer, unless I decide to go for some optics on the leds.

Where I need help:
It comes down to this, I don't know how to do circuitry. I would love to set it up with a temperature probe on the case that runs the fan and to be able to control dimming and, hell why not, sunrise and sunset with an on device or external setup.
I don't know how I would need to setup the buckpucks to run anything, I would like to make the whole thing run off of one grounded AC plug. And I want to eventually make multiple and have one setup control them all.

Like I said in my disclaimer, I know I can't do everything that I want to, but I want to try.

I was thinking of taking a page out of the maxspect book and going with a light setup like theirs.

[TABLE="width: 675"]
[TR]
[TD]Channel[/TD]
[TD]Make/Model[/TD]
[TD]Quantity[/TD]
[TD]Luminous Flux & Driven Current[/TD]
[TD]Color Temperature / Wavelength[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]Cree XLamp® XM-L
T6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]540 lm @ 1500mA[/TD]
[TD]Cool White
7000-8000K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD]Philips Luxeon Rebel
LXML-PB01-0040[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]88 lm @ 1000mA[/TD]
[TD]Blue
460-490nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philips Luxeon Rebel
LXML-PR01-0500[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1222mW @ 1000mA[/TD]
[TD]Royal Blue
440-460nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]SiBDI
S35-U U60[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]500mW @ 700mA[/TD]
[TD]Super Actinic
400-410nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SiBDI
S35-U U70[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]600mW @ 700mA[/TD]
[TD]Super Actinic
410-420nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philips Luxeon Rebel
LXML-PR01-0500[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]910mW @ 700mA[/TD]
[TD]Royal Blue
440-460nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Cree XP-G
Q3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]232 lm @ 1000mA[/TD]
[TD]CRI 85 Warm White
3000K[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Philips Luxeon Rebel
LXML-PR01-0040[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]88lm @ 1000mA[/TD]
[TD]Blue
460-490nm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]





I'm going to just put this out there now. I'm taking an adventure and I'm dragging anyone who wants to come along with me.

Tear it apart and I'll build it back again better, that's what forums are for right?

 

[cdness]

following along!

 

[Onedesign1]

Well you seem to have given it some good thought and some research.

I would like to start by asking what size tank you are planning to put your described fixture over? 9" square heatsink leads me to believe its a smaller cube of some sort. From there I could offer you my opinions and there is plenty of knowledge here to pitch in as well.

 

[metalsniper]

At this point the plan was to attempt the 9'' square at an attempt to go modular. The first would most likely be used over a frag tank or be one of two or three used over a 4' bow front. The final plan is to use a couple hung as pendants over a 7' 225 gal.

Hope that gives a little insight.

 

[metalsniper]

Alrighty, I've been trying to figure out how to do my circuitry with timers and switches as well as dimming and I think I'm going to need some serious help.
Just for fun, let's say I'm using 4 700mA buckpucks running 4 leds each. Am I looking at the proper current and what will my voltage look like.

Okay, now one step more in depth.
Using a power supply, I can probably fine anything but lets start with 20V at something like 5A. If I split the output from this my voltage stays the same but my current gets cut right, so 4 ways would give me 20V at 1.25A each. This should be adequate for what I need correct?

I setup a circuit on a given buckpuck with 4 leds from led+ to led- do I need a resistor or is that covered by the buck puck? Is the 700mA the right size if I'm feeding it 1250mA or do I need to start lower?

The next few circuits would need to be in...(?) parallel or series (?); mechanical timer, master on/off, dimming, all three coming from the control and reference pins.
I think the master on/off would need to be in series with both the mechanical timer and the dimming but after looking at the buck puck spec sheet I'm not certain anymore.
http://www.luxdrive.com/download/?dltf&dmid=1109
What kind of dimmer would I need?

Alright boys and girls, help me out here. Looking okay, I'm worried of getting to the point where I throw some stuff together and the whole thing burns out.
You may notice I switched to mechanical timing and dimming for simplicity in this first step of the build, I figure if I can find out how to program arduino or similar I can easily enough pull the circuit and change it up.

 

[Onedesign1]

While the buckpucks are fine I would encourage you to maybe split the build into 2 controllable pieces rather than 4 and then investigate some turnkey drivers just to simplify the whole build. Meanwell ELN series or Inventronics sell some nice small drivers and you won't need a separate power supply, are dimmable, etc.

I would also encourage you to consider XPGs as opposed to the XMLs. My personal view on the XML is unless you really drive the heck out of them you don't get the benefits of their superior output and the XPG becomes a better choice with lower cost.

I can recommend a dedicated controller with 4 channels of control for use in sunrise and sunset and in fact if you were willing to limit your max drive current to 500ma you could direct drive 4 strings of 3 LEDs with each string individually controllable by its own channel. This would be a completely different direction than you were going but I offer it up as an option. I use it to control my sunrise and sunset and 2 of the channels have relay outputs to switch my drivers on and off. The controller is called a DIM4 and is available for about $80. Its a great unit purpose built for what we do. Those Arduino projects give me a headache thinking about them. If you can't find it online or if you want the manual shoot me a PM.

If any of the above interests you further I'd be happy to point you at some drivers. The actual wiring is not that bad once you figure out what you want to do and I can help with that as well. I will say i feel those buck pucks you chose complicate things a bit with having to utilize a circuit board, separate power supply, etc. So it depends on what you really want to do. I just prefer the turnkey drivers is all.

In your specific question you are correct in how the current splits from a power supply. The buckpuck will take care of the rest you just need the power supply to deliver enough and the puck will use what its rated for.

 

[metalsniper]

Thanks for the input Onedesign1, I considered going with two drivers instead of the 4 I mentioned but I really wanted to be able to independently control the color spectrum. I suppose it's still possible with parallel series and resistors right?

However, another consideration that went into the buckpucks (though I suppose there are a number of drivers that would work in the same way) is that I wanted to be able to run the whole thing off of one 120V ac wall plug. By having the dedicated power supply I feel like its a little easier and less cluttered on the outside as long as I can pack away the psu on the inside of my system.

I was kinda being dumb and decided to leave this in just for posterity. I realize that the mean well ELN-60-24 if using 4 or 2 strands would work and runs directly off 120VAC. Any idea about if external power is required for the dimming circuit or just a pot? I would like to have a knob on the side of my casing to allow for adjustment of the different colors. edit: This whole dimming knobs and such is negated if the DIM4 works for me I suppose.

For the price I don't know which is easier or better, the mean wells or the buckpucks because while the buckpucks require an additional psu I could setup all 4 circuits for the same price as two mean wells. I wasn't planning on doing a whole circuit board but rather just a wires, what do you think?

But on to the DIM4, all I have to say is woah momma. I really think that looks like exactly what I've been looking for. With that, I could run 4 buckpucks independently with timing and dimming control all already done? Would it work with buckpucks or would I need to use mean wells?

Now, pulling myself together. If I were to use the DIM4, and two mean wells or 4 buckpucks would I be able to work it out so that I still only had one cable going into my fixture? I know I could make a fan run off the relay with either set up so I'm not worried about that.



Otherwise if I went to directly driven led at 500mA I don't think I would get adequate light for whatever I might use the LED. I know its silly but I'm trying to over think this whole thing on purpose so I make sure I understand everything I'm doing. I also didn't address the LED choices because I've put the least thought into what actual leds in intend to use. Though I could do different buckpucks at the given driving currents above and really push the hell out of them.

 

[metalsniper]

I never really considered the psu as a major price point but I can't find anything cheap. I would need something over 12V and around 5A, those run at over 100$ unless I'm looking in the completely wrong place. Gosh...

Alright, well it does make a little better sense now. What would happen if I were to run a power cord from the wall, split it 4 ways and run each to a mean well eln-60(p-d)-24; would that work?

 

[Onedesign1]

I never really considered the psu as a major price point but I can't find anything cheap. I would need something over 12V and around 5A, those run at over 100$ unless I'm looking in the completely wrong place. Gosh...

Alright, well it does make a little better sense now. What would happen if I were to run a power cord from the wall, split it 4 ways and run each to a mean well eln-60(p-d)-24; would that work?

Yes you can gang the power cords into one. Prior to the DIM4 I always wired separate power cords plugged into their own timers. Since I added the DIM4 I still have them that way without the timers yeah! (I also use larger drivers in my large build). I have seen others gang 4 meanwells on 1 plug...there's not much different plugging 4 cords into 1 strip than wiring the 4 together into 1.

Remember with the Meanwells to not only check voltage but also current...all the 60W or 30W put out 60 or 30W so as you lower voltage the current output is higher. Also remember the Meanwells operate in a range of voltage...for example the 48V ELN runs between 24v and 48V so there's a lot of flexibility in how many LEDs you can drive. go to their website and check out the spec sheets.

You answered your own question on the dimming but yes with the ELN line you need a 10VDC supply and potentiometer to control the dimming. Yes the DIM4 solves that but I should note that without the DIM you can gang a whole bunch of the ELN dimming circuits onto a single 10VDC supply and give each driver its own POT. I take it you found the DIM4?

Back to the buckpucks...they do sell a cord to plug into the pins so you can avoid soldering to the pins. yeah I was never able to find cheap PSUs when I was considering building my own drivers. Apparently there used to be a cheap units everybody was buying but its since disappeared from the market. My conclusion was its just cheaper, faster, cleaner, and easier to by the Meanwells

I am not sure on the buckpucks and do not have the spec sheet open but the DIM4 operates 0-10V analog for dimming.... not PWM...so if the buckpucks are PWM dimming they won't work with the DIM4. If they are 0-10vdc then they'll work just fine.

Yes I am rather taken with the DIM4 myself. I use 2 large Meanwell HLG drivers and utilize the relay outputs to power 2 solid state relays (SSR) to switch on each driver which is a big deal because these drivers only dim down to something just above off but not completely dark. I used to run them to timers for the on/off. Now thats all gone! Plus there's enough output that i also run 2 120mm fans off the same relay channel! and I still have 2 channels free which I may add some direct drive moon lights.

Let me know if I missed anything for your questions.

 

[metalsniper]

Thanks again Onedesign1 for helping me work through this. I've been convinced, it wasn't that hard was it, to go with the Meanwells. Looking at the spec sheet, the ENL-60-24 gives 12-24VDC at 2.5A while the ENL-30-24 gives 3-24V at 1.25A . Assuming a lead voltage of 3.5 or so for most leds, that puts me at 14V per strand of 4 but I only need 700mA-1.5A depending on the led and how high I want to run them.
So would I need a resistor of some sort if I wanted to run two strands at different currents?

With a two driver setup, I could then have one wire come in and split it to each driver, then from each driver run two strands. Would I need to split the inlet power cable into three to power the dim4? Or I could run 4 of the 1.25A ones to get independent dimming control. I just don't know how necessary that is. I feel like two of the bigger ones would work if I could put in a pot or something and just dim them manually to the ratio I want.

When I figure out how I will try to make an electrical schematic so I can get that perfect.
If you understand what I'm trying to figure out I'll be amazed because it feels so convoluted.

 

[Onedesign1]

no...you will run all the LEDs hooked to one driver at the same drive current...they have to be balanced parallel strings. They can be different types of LEDs so long as each string is within a reasonable amount of drive current to each other...less than 5% from low string to high string. So if you're going to run 1 ELN 30-24 with 2 strings then each string will run about 625ma

The DIM4 runs off 12VDC so you need a separate 12VDC adapter ....recommend about 1.25A in order to be able to direct drive fans and drivers. The drivers have separate wires exiting them for the dimming circuitry which connects to the DIM4...or 10V connected to a POT. The driver AC just goes to the wall or through a relay controlled by a DIM4 and then the wall.

So long as you remember you need to balance parallel strings, the wiring is quite simple.

Let me know if this makes any sense.

 

[metalsniper]

I think I understand. So basically, whatever current I have will be split evenly. With that said, I suppose it is an important step to figure out what LEDs I want so I can properly size the drivers.

If I want to do a Blue driver and a white driver the blue driver should have a strand of Blue/Royal blue and a strand of Royal Blue/actinic so I want to get a range of 440-490 on the blue strand and 400-460 on the actinic strand.
The white driver would have 4 cool whites probably 7000-8000K then the other some warm whites, like 3000K and maybe a green and a red?

What bulbs would be good for each of these categories?
2 blue
4 royal blue
2 actinic

4 cool white
2 warm white
1 green
1 red

Depending on the leds I find would it be possible to just drive them all at 1A or do different leds need a different driving current?

 

[Onedesign1]

Correct on your 1st paragraph.

I'm going to steer you a slightly different direction by recommending a slightly different combo. Research and consider the following Cree combo...specs can be found at cree.com.

The royal blues are actinic at about 450nm on the new XTE's.. consider using 6 XTE RBs and 4 XPE Blues on one driver. (400/420nm is UV and its debatable if they do anything)

On the other consider 3 XPG Neutral White, 3 XPG R5 Cool White and 2 XPE Greens on another driver. The lumen output of the XPG CW is so high I really recommend using them as opposed to the XMLs as you would likely completely wash out the blues. I would actually recommend having 2x the blues in some combo than the whites but I'm trying to stick somewhat to where you started

Note that I left out the reds ... this is because the NWs are around 4000k and contain a lot of red

My personal experience is that most of XP LEDs run 3.1v to 3.25v at 1000ma. Use that for your driver research when looking at the voltage range to size it. If you were to do the above on 2 drivers you wouldn't have to split them into parallel strings. Conversely if you wanted to you can put them all on 1 driver but then you lose the separate control but I just give it as an example.

So thats just my recommendation for you to consider and I can tell you are a good researcher to make an informed decision.

I think I understand. So basically, whatever current I have will be split evenly. With that said, I suppose it is an important step to figure out what LEDs I want so I can properly size the drivers.

If I want to do a Blue driver and a white driver the blue driver should have a strand of Blue/Royal blue and a strand of Royal Blue/actinic so I want to get a range of 440-490 on the blue strand and 400-460 on the actinic strand.
The white driver would have 4 cool whites probably 7000-8000K then the other some warm whites, like 3000K and maybe a green and a red?

What bulbs would be good for each of these categories?
2 blue
4 royal blue
2 actinic

4 cool white
2 warm white
1 green
1 red

Depending on the leds I find would it be possible to just drive them all at 1A or do different leds need a different driving current?

 

[metalsniper]

I had been considering myself going a little more general with the led's for costs and ease of supply. I am however, leaning towards more blue and since they'll be independently dimmable I'd rather have more blue than less.
In depth on the leds:
Cree XT-E RB at a driving current of 1A should have a forward voltage of 3.5V $3.43ea from cutter
Cutter Electronics
Cree XP-E Blue have the same 3.5V at 1A $3.87
Cutter Electronics
Cree XP-E green is 3.8V at 1A $4.96ea
Cutter Electronics
Cree XP-G cool white and neutral both are 3.3V at 1A
Neutral $7.34ea
Cutter Electronics
Cool white $7.70ea
Cutter Electronics
Since they all sit around or over 3.5V at the current I would be driving them I should probably go with the ELN-60-48-D if I were to use two drivers with only one string each because I would need just over 28V at 1A. Alternatively I could go with the ELN-30-27-D if 27 volts would be adequate. The give and take of that is that the ELN-30-48 only gives .63A but at that current, the 27V would probably work.

What do you thinks the best, just go with the 60-48 and have lots of wiggle room?

One more option would be to use two ELN-30-15 with two strands each balanced at 1A each. This would give me 15V where at most 14 would be needed. Is there anything required to balance the circuit or will everything just be driven at 1A?

I'm thinking at this point(still wide open to change) a string of 4 RB, a string of 2 RB & 2 Blue on the first driver then on the other, a string of 2 neutral white with 2 blue, and a string of 2 cool white with 2 green. Seem balanced enough? And of course if I go with just one strand per driver I would just combine the two from each.

Throw one of these into the mix to power the dim4 for 17.95
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/NES-15-12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuEhFEw3BeJbbVEtWnl6HxsKkqURAAJZT4%3d
I know I could go cheaper with something like a cell phone charger but I would rather have dependable.

 

[metalsniper]

Alright, Now I've got a thought in my head and I want to put it out there before I forget it.
If I were to instead of going directly go to the dim4 but instead custom wire a jack of somesort with control for each channel and the relays would that be possible, feasible? I'm wondering this because then it would be possible to link multiple fixtures onto one dim4.

I'm thinking along the lines of a reefkeeper where the controller plugs into one thing then everything else daisy chains off it. So go out the back of a box with the dim4 that has wires for each channel and relay. A cable then connects this to the first light where it plugs in to a jack wired with each of the dimming circuits and relays.

Looking into it a little more I think it would, I would probably need to do something like a custom 12 pin molex and have a few spare just in case.

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1235598
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=092-564

 

[Onedesign1]

That mixture looks good to me. Curious if you are in that part of the world to use Cutter.

The DIM4 should be fine the way you want to use it since each channel has a 500ma drive capability and the dimming circuits use very very little...less than 50ma for sure. However it will struggle if you start putting too many fans directly on it...high start up current and probably 300-400ma usage. Relays are not an issue.

Again my experience with hundreds of the XPGs and XPEs is that they tend to run 3.1v-3.25v...3.3 is an occasional outlier. So just be careful that the driver can handle the lower end of the voltage I suppose. 8 on a 60-48D is definitely the low end but ok.

To balance the strings you measure the total string current 1st. If significantly off between the multiples you start measuring the voltage of each LED and you will find outliers in each string. You swap these outliers between strings until you get the total between the strings close. Alternately having extra LEDs available to swap is the easier way I think. You should consider using 1-ohm resistors in each string to aid in taking current readings via a voltage measurement...let me know if you are not aware of this method. Also, using fast blow fuses on each string is advised for protection. If you use the 60-48D you won't have to worry about parallel strings but can still use the resistor for current measurements.

 

[CJO]

On the other consider 3 XPG Neutral White, 3 XPG R5 Cool White and 2 XPE Greens on another driver. The lumen output of the XPG CW is so high I really recommend using them as opposed to the XMLs as you would likely completely wash out the blues. I would actually recommend having 2x the blues in some combo than the whites but I'm trying to stick somewhat to where you started.

I agree with most of what you have said, but have a couple of issues with this. If you do this, you are limiting your maximum current to 1A, but would be better staying at 750mA or less. Also, the green tend to overpower other colors- that seems to be a pretty high ratio of green to white.

CJ

 

[Onedesign1]

I agree with most of what you have said, but have a couple of issues with this. If you do this, you are limiting your maximum current to 1A, but would be better staying at 750mA or less. Also, the green tend to overpower other colors- that seems to be a pretty high ratio of green to white.

CJ

CJ glad you joined in to help! I think it takes actually turning them on and running them to see you have to dim them which is why I recommended steering clear of the XMLs in this build...I in fact run my whites and greens around 500ma at peak time and my blues at 900ma. I think this is something he'll have to experience himself to determine where he wants to land but I agree.

As for the greens I am running 2 greens for every 8 whites on my most current fixture and have no issue of them over powering anything ... they really can't match an XPG in that regard. Granted the slightly higher ratio here may make a difference but being a small array is making it difficult to strike a balance. My total fixture us 44 RBs, 24 whites, 6 greens, and 3 reds (I didn't use enough neutral whites so had to add some red).

 

[metalsniper]

Reasonably how many led's do you think I can fit onto that size of a heat sink? If I am using the ELN-60-48 then I suppose I could add a few more lights. Or if space is the issue, make the blues triple stars or something? I'm looking into it now but I since I am able to dim everything I might as well get as much light on there right?

Looking at heat sinks Heatsink USA has a 10in that would work instead of 9in. With that, the stars are about .62in^2 by my calculations and the heat sink would be 100in^2 so I could cram over 100 led if I filled it up.
Practically, if I only want to use the two drivers I can only run 13 led per strand to be safe. This seems like it would probably be the better idea just to get the most for my money and that gives a lot more freedom in light choices. That gives 5 more lights per strand, what do you guys think?

At 26 leds what volume of water do you think I could light?
Also, I'm in the US too so I doubt I could actually purchase through cutter, if you know of a good supplier here that has all of the leds and preferably drivers that would be awesome.

 

[Onedesign1]

Hard to tell but I have 77 on the 10" profile and 36" long with 2 120mm fans and its just above room temperature. This tank is a 4x2x2 120G So divide it by 3 and its just about 26. I would use about that many on a 40B but a narrower by longer heatsink to cover it. the most important thing IMO is getting coverage on the tank. I good formula for Cree 3W'ers is (LxW)/16 = # LEDs. Has worked very well for me personally on my tank and fixture I've done and worked on for others.

I highly recommend checking out rapid.com for LEDs

Reasonably how many led's do you think I can fit onto that size of a heat sink? If I am using the ELN-60-48 then I suppose I could add a few more lights. Or if space is the issue, make the blues triple stars or something? I'm looking into it now but I since I am able to dim everything I might as well get as much light on there right?

Looking at heat sinks Heatsink USA has a 10in that would work instead of 9in. With that, the stars are about .62in^2 by my calculations and the heat sink would be 100in^2 so I could cram over 100 led if I filled it up.
Practically, if I only want to use the two drivers I can only run 13 led per strand to be safe. This seems like it would probably be the better idea just to get the most for my money and that gives a lot more freedom in light choices. That gives 5 more lights per strand, what do you guys think?

At 26 leds what volume of water do you think I could light?
Also, I'm in the US too so I doubt I could actually purchase through cutter, if you know of a good supplier here that has all of the leds and preferably drivers that would be awesome.