Oxydator?

[Congaken]

Randy...things are going swimmingly in my 10...all fish seem well and happy...been reading Thiel's book and he talks about an oxydator...what is your opinion of these?...For one thing, I live in an area where there is power outages, so the O2 would help with that...also I do have some cyno (but not a lot) and I understand that it is helpful for this and general health of the tank...Amazon sells one mini for 29.95...I can afford it if its worth it...Thanks...Ken

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It seems like a reasonable way to add O2, if that is a goal. Beyond that, I'm not sure what benefits one might see from raised O2. I personally wouldn't expect it to solve a cyano problem, but I've not seen evidence either way.

 

[jedimasterben]

After much back and forth with Albert Thiel on Oxydators, he made it abundantly clear that he does not know how the Oxydator is designed to work and what it actually does, which is drip peroxide directly into the tank. You can find that data here, though this thread is very long and might hurt your brain to pick through http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/301060-oxydator-and-hydrogen-peroxide/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, I would not take chemical advice from Albeter Thiel. He is apparently still espousing incorrect ideas about reef chemistry (as he has in paste decades), including comments about the oxydator he made a few years ago on a different board:

"As stated above indeed ... as more O2 gets into the water, less CO2 can be held in solution and so the pH will remain more stable especially during the night .... "

That comment is just soooo wrong.

IMO, it is seemingly clear and simple how the oxydator works when used as directed
Hydrogen peroxide slowly reacts with the catalyst and produces O2.

I read a post from someone who only saw peroxide in the tank when the device was used with substantially more peroxide than is recommended, but not at the recommended dose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The peroxide measurement comment is here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/305180-the-official-ask-albert-thiel-thread/page-655

from it:
"Using the recommend size oxydator and the recommended solution, I have not been able to get a peroxide reading in a tank. When I have increased the strength several times that of the recommendation, I did get peroxide readings. "

But if people are getting cyano benefits, perhaps they are getting peroxide directly into the tank, which does kill cyano:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/back-at-it-peroxide-vrs-cyanobacteria.241002/

 

[jedimasterben]

The Oxydator works by catalyzing peroxide inside the unit with a tiny chunk of silver mixed with ceramic, which creates pressure that pushes some of the remaining peroxide solution out into the tank water. This reaction is incredibly fast in the beginning, dumping peroxide into the tank at an alarming rate, and then tapering off after a day or two until the remaining peroxide has been broken down and the reaction halts, which for my testing with 7% and 12% peroxide (diluted from 35%) takes about 5 days.

The peroxide measurement comment is here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/305180-the-official-ask-albert-thiel-thread/page-655

from it:
"Using the recommend size oxydator and the recommended solution, I have not been able to get a peroxide reading in a tank. When I have increased the strength several times that of the recommendation, I did get peroxide readings. "

What I don't understand is the 'peroxide reading'. The originator of that quote gives no data and does not mention what this 'reading' was taken from. IMHO it is just more bovine feces from people that don't understand how the device works or what it does. It's amazing how vehemently some people will defend the device and say that no peroxide ever touches the water, only 'activated oxygen', when the original device patent very clearly states that the device's purpose is to drip peroxide into the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the info!

What I don't understand is the 'peroxide reading'. The originator of that quote gives no data and does not mention what this 'reading' was taken from. IMHO it is just more bovine feces from people that don't understand how the device works or what it does. It's amazing how vehemently some people will defend the device and say that no peroxide ever touches the water, only 'activated oxygen', when the original device patent very clearly states that the device's purpose is to drip peroxide into the tank.

That's all entirely possible. I have no idea what they measured either.

 

[Reefer4Ever]

Bovine feces. I so love following this stuff

 

[atoll]

From the manufacturer: "Using a patented method, Söchting Oxydators produce normal and activated oxygen in the aquarium by means of Oxydator solution and special ceramic catalysts. The activated oxygen decomposes particularly putrid matters and toxicants and, thus essentially improves the well-being of fish and plants. Pure oxygen created by the Söchting Oxydator is mostly immediately dissolved in the water, so that there are hardly any bubbles produced. The oxygen supply is absolutely noiseless, expelling of CO2 and swirling of ground elements is avoided."

In other words, the Oxydator dispenses pure oxygen into the aquarium water, slowly and continuously over time, giving your inhabitants all the benefits of increased levels of dissolved oxygen. Without an Oxydator, good water circulation and regular partial water changes, the level of dissolved oxygen in your aquarium is falling due to the normal metabolic processes of your aquatic life. The Oxydator is "replacing" the oxygen that's being consumed and, as an additional benefit, it's maximizing the oxygen available for your aerobic bacteria (you must still do regular partial water changes to remove end-stage nitrates and for other purposes, of course).

Nowhere does it mention peroxide is directly dosed into the aquarium or leaves the Oxdator. However, there seems to be some contradiction from the manufacturer in some other literature they have published, perhaps lost in translation, however, my understanding is that peroxide is indeed broken down within the reactor into it's component parts before leaving it and that peroxide is not directly released into the aquarium at the stated doses. Only at greatly exceeded doses have I witnessed any negative reactions from the likes of anemones, this was with a concentration of 17% nd using 2 catalysts in an Oxdator model A. I would never advise anybody to go beyond using a 12% solution of Hydrogen peroxide but number of catalysts and size of aquarium also have an effect.

 

[atoll]

Quote "New is the continuous and critically higher dose of hydrogen peroxide, which the Söchting Oxydator decomposes into oxygen (O2) and water (H2O).

Your aquarium's water quality will be fundamentally improved and problems such as those aforementioned will be greatly hindered. The Söchting Oxydator breaks down hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen: 2 H2O2 ----------------------------> 2 H2O + O2."

 

[atoll]

Update.
I have been trying to get the definitive answer to a long-running question about how the Oxydator dispenses is Oxygen/peroxide so I wrote to Adrian the UK distributor of Oxydator products if he could help in getting an answer from Söchting Biotechnik the makers of the Oxydator. Below is the unedited reply I had been seeking which Adrian kindly passed onto me.

Here is the reply from Söchting Biotechnik

Quote "Hi Les,

The catalyst inside pruduces oxygen for the pressure to push out H2O2 steadily.
The outside ceramic is also a catalyst and there part of the H2O2 get dossolved into
water and O2. But part of the H2O2 gets free into the water and oxidates,
and increase the Redoxpotential of the water - thats also important to increase water quality.
And thats also the reason that people have to stick to the manual,
so that no overdosing hapened.

Kind Regards, Uwe"

Well, that clears that up once and for all. I was under the impression that all the Hydrogen peroxide was broken down before it left the Oxydator. Now we know that some of the H2O2 does indeed enter the aquarium water although what percentage of it does is another question.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well, that clears that up once and for all.

While I don't have any reason to think what he wrote is not totally correct, I would not generally just assume that all manufacturers understand how their products work on a molecular level. My experience suggests many do not.

 

[atoll]

While I don't have any reason to think what he wrote is not totally correct, I would not generally just assume that all manufacturers understand how their products work on a molecular level. My experience suggests many do not.

In the absence of any real alternative suggestions on how the Oxydator works and given the length of time Oxydators have been in use I am happy to accept the manufacturers answer to the question I asked. By all means, people can be sceptical but then we can be so about so many things. However, as with most things when it comes to the use of Oxydators I will keep with the truth of the pudding etc as I have seen for myself with the affects Oxydators have had on my aquariums (and that of others) over the last 25yearss or so. Antidotal? Maybe but I think not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In the absence of any real alternative suggestions on how the Oxydator works and given the length of time Oxydators have been in use I am happy to accept the manufacturers answer to the question I asked. By all means, people can be sceptical but then we can be so about so many things. However, as with most things when it comes to the use of Oxydators I will keep with the truth of the pudding etc as I have seen for myself with the affects Oxydators have had on my aquariums (and that of others) over the last 25yearss or so. Antidotal? Maybe but I think not.

As I said, he may be 100% correct, but the effects that people see do not require hydrogen peroxide to actually leave the device. Any reaction with organics and such may happen in the water near the catalyst.

Unless he actually measured hydrogen peroxide in the water, it seem hypothesis to say some leaves.

 

[atoll]

Abut the effects that people see do not require hydrogen peroxide to actually leave the device. Any reaction with organics and such may happen in the water near the catalyst.

I agree and after all it may depend on other factors like the % of peroxide use and the number of catalysts used. I have tried many combinations of both over the years and even gone too far with them. Some time I settled on 9% with 2 catalysts in my 2 Oxydator A's. In my case, I believe the vast majority of the peroxide is broken down before it leaves the beaker and enters the water column. When I used high strength peroxide and I once went to 35% (not a good idea I can tell you) and saw the negative effect it had on a large anemone I had but have never had an issue at lower %.
Oxydators have been around a long time, in fact, a very long time in the history of marine reef keepers. I have friends here in the UK who report similar results using Oxydators in their reef aquariums. For me and them the pudding eatings been well and truly found to be a very nice experience and that is what matters to most in this hobby with the hows and whys often coming secondary to the experience.

 

[atoll]

Dr. Sochting's Oxydator Information
A unique, new patent that gives constant, controlled release of pure and activated oxygen that keeps aquaria and garden ponds oxygen rich, clean and clear.

1. Activated oxygen filters to every corner of your aquarium including those "dead pockets" which the current can't reach. It even penetrates the gravel bottom, making it an ideal biological filter.

2. Activated oxygen encourages aerobic micro-organisms which convert fish excreta and rotting food into harmless end products. They put an end to stale, foul odours from the pool bottom.

3. Activated oxygen itself rids water of noxious organic products like carbohydrates and nitrite by converting them into simple, safe substances like water, carbon dioxide and nitrate.

4. Activated oxygen improves redox-potential, killing the unwanted algae and bacteria which cloud water. Your tank or pond stays clean, clear and healthier.

5. Activated oxygen is converted to ordinary oxygen by the Oxydator's specially developed ceramic surface. The reliable, self-adjusting system maintains exactly the right balance of activated and pure oxygen which your pond or tank requires.

6. No need for a CO2 diffuser in most cases - the unique process of the Oxydator does not expel CO2 from your tank but actually helps it to form from organic matter.

7. No need for tubes or cables - the Oxydator is the first safe, self-contained unit to offer a constant year-round oxygen supply for outdoor ponds. It continues to work even under thick winter ice.

How does the Oxydator work?

It makes clever use of Hydrogen peroxide's (H2O2) chemistry. This molecule consists of an oxygen atom loosely attached to a water molecule, like a ball in a gutter. One "shake", (or impulse of energy), will set it rolling and this gives it special energetic properties. The "shake" is caused by a catalyst in the peroxide reservoir. Two peroxide molecules are needed to produce the water and pure oxygen.

The chemical equation is:

2 H2O2 è ( catalyst ) è 2 H2O2 + O2

The Oxydator causes this reaction in two separate stages:

Stage 1 - A small catalyst rod breaks down some of the peroxide inside a plexiglass container (see diagram), producing the exact amount of oxygen needed. A diving bell acts as a valve, while an air cushion at the bottom of the container prevents water from penetrating the unit.

Stage 2 - The specially developed ceramic of the Oxydator releases the pure oxygen your fish need. Only our unique ceramic can do this - ordinary ceramic has no effect at all. This two-stage process constantly regulates the activated oxygen, releasing the right amount for your tank and ensuring the concentration is never too high for your fish.

What makes the Oxydator unique?

The benefits of adding hydrogen peroxide to water have long been known. It keeps fish in good condition, prevents acute oxygen starvation, stops fungus from growing and halts the build-up of decaying matter which makes the water murky. But regulating the peroxide concentration has always been a problem until now! The Oxydator is a unique new design with a constant, controlled release, giving the exact amount needed at any time. It radically improves the water quality, giving all the benefits mentioned above. The key is a specially developed ceramic which breaks peroxide down completely into water and oxygen. But the Oxydator does not only provide a supply of fresh oxygen. Unlike ordinary aerators, it will not expel CO2, an important plant nutrient, from the tank. It also releases activated oxygen which detoxifies poisons, rendering them completely harmless. With an Oxydator you can keep many more fish in your tank and you do not have to change the water so often. The oxygen supply adjusts to the temperature of a populated pond or tank. An 8 °C increase doubles the amount produced. Approximately 20,000 liter of water will be 100% oxygen-saturated (156 g of oxygen) by 1 liter of 30% peroxide solution at 25 °C. The table below shows the quantities and consumption rates at 25 °C. A simple adjustment gives the figures at other temperatures. An average number of fish and plants is assumed for each volume. As a highly populated tank needs more oxygen, the next highest combination may be more appropriate. The Oxydator also provides economical, purifying activated oxygen for plant-free, highly populated aquaria where aerators satisfy the large oxygen demands.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m not a fan of his incorrect description of hydrogen peroxide as an oxygen atom loosely attached to a water molecule (that’s just wrong), but it is at least clear he believes that hydrogen peroxide leaves the device. He doesn’t give any evidence, however.

 

[atoll]

I’m not a fan of his incorrect description of hydrogen peroxide as an oxygen atom loudly attached to a water molecule (that’s just wrong), but it is at least clear he believes that hydrogen peroxide leaves the device.

I have posted before, IMO it is not so much a matter as to if peroxide leaves the Oxydator but how much, surely that is the important thing here along with the results obtained. The suggestion is it is insignificant (interpret that as you will) to cause animal life forms issues and that it will quickly react with organics in the water used in the recommended percentage of peroxide and number of catalysts. Does the Oxydator do what it says on the tin and do many aquarists notice improvements in the water clarity and health of their animals, many report it does to one extent or another. I posted a case study recently of a friend who had an outbreak of white spot in his aquarium. Oxydators were used to help his tangs in particular to fight the problem. Those interested can read about it here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...n-the-fight-against-white-spot-part-2.376066/

 

[jedimasterben]

not this garbage again.

 

[atoll]

not this garbage again.

I well remember people saying similar things about skimmers when they arrived in the US, but hey you can lead a horse to water. I strongly suggest you keep off this thread given you have little to contribute but negativity. So many people in Europe know of and have experienced the benefits that Oxydators have brought, it is well documented and the science well proven along with the technology but I don't expect you to acknowledge it.