P04 or Water Swings

specialk · Oct 5, 2016

So I have been posting on here like MAD lately trying to:

1. Chase #'s -- I have learned not to do this (I knew this before but lost track and started doing it again when I started having algae issues)

2. Determine why is is taking so long to get my P04 down (basically I'm getting small algae blooms and I'm trying to get them to stop popping up and go away. I am also running GFO in a 2 little fishes canister and changing the GFO every 5-7 days as it gets exhausted. I can tell when it get's exhausted because I have to mag float the glass more often

As I am getting great growth on my SPS, the coloration is not where it should be for many of the SPS. (while others look great) I have looked into the lighting issue as well but it seems to be 1 of the 2 following.

I am wondering from all the experts on here who have gone thru this before (because it is getting MAD FRUSTRATING) ...

...If the SPS are not coloring up as they should, and some have even browned out a bit (but again still getting great growth) would there be a greater chance that this is due to :

1. Swings in my water parameters and lack of consistency (solid consistent calcium, Alk, etc)

OR

2. P04?

The reason I ask is because I also just watched a video from MACNA 2014 and Phosphate lecture from a top expert. And although he did not recommend high P04, the moral of the lecture was many many great tanks had higher then "many recommend" P04 levels and the SPS were doing GREAT!

So this made me think .. that the MAIN reason may be due to the lack of consistency in the water parameters as I know corals LOVE consistency.

So wondering what you think is a greater chance as to the reason why this is happening.

jsker · Oct 5, 2016

I have been running the balling method and running Po4's at .04, but any higher my corals are not happy

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2016

Browning out of corals usually means excessive zoox, which can come from excessive nutrients, not inconsistent alk or other basic parameters (as far as I can tell).

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Browning out of corals usually means excessive zoox, which can come from excessive nutrients, not inconsistent alk or other basic parameters (as far as I can tell).

Not really familiar with that? Excessive nutrients .. where may these excessive nutrients be coming from ... the only thing I dose is Seachem Reef Advantage Calcium. Also, how do I combat this? --thanks Randy!

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

Although by reading one of your past articles, it looks as if this is due to Alk swings .. ? In which I need to start really monitoring (I should have been from the beginning

) Alk and also start dosing that as well? Does this sound about right? And, in going back to your article, aim for about 7-8 alk readings?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2016

specialk said:
Not really familiar with that? Excessive nutrients .. where may these excessive nutrients be coming from ... the only thing I dose is Seachem Reef Advantage Calcium. Also, how do I combat this? --thanks Randy!

Foods provide the N and P nutrients (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, etc.) that drive zoox levels. organic carbon dosing may also spur zoox.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2016

specialk said:
Although by reading one of your past articles, it looks as if this is due to Alk swings .. ? In which I need to start really monitoring (I should have been from the beginning ) Alk and also start dosing that as well? Does this sound about right? And, in going back to your article, aim for about 7-8 alk readings?

What do you think I attributed to alk swings?

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Foods provide the N and P nutrients (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, etc.) that drive zoox levels. organic carbon dosing may also spur zoox.

But I dont feed all that much. 1 small seaweed sheet a day for my tangs, and frozen brine shrimp (that I wash thoroughly with water before I put in) and that is it. No flake food or anything like that.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2016

specialk said:
But I dont feed all that much. 1 small seaweed sheet a day for my tangs, and frozen brine shrimp (that I wash thoroughly with water before I put in) and that is it. No flake food or anything like that.

It need not be over feeding. Any feeding provides nutrients. Unless it is coming from the use of tap water or from dying organisms decaying, the source of nutrients is foods. Nearly all of the phosphate in foods ends up in the water, whether it is eaten or not. Same for nitrogen (ammonia, nitrate, etc.).

Myka · Oct 6, 2016

specialk said:
As I am getting great growth on my SPS, the coloration is not where it should be for many of the SPS. (while others look great) I have looked into the lighting issue as well but it seems to be 1 of the 2 following.

I am wondering from all the experts on here who have gone thru this before (because it is getting MAD FRUSTRATING) ...

...If the SPS are not coloring up as they should, and some have even browned out a bit (but again still getting great growth) would there be a greater chance that this is due to :

1. Swings in my water parameters and lack of consistency (solid consistent calcium, Alk, etc)

OR

2. P04?

In my experience with SPS...

Stable parameters shows up as growth, instability shows up as lack of growth or STN/RTN. The exception to this - unstable alkalinity could show up as lack of growth, STN/RTN, and also lack of color.

Correct/preferable parameters shows up as color, incorrect/less preferable parameters shows up as poor coloration.

Alkalinity shouldn't swing more than 0.1 dKH per day, or 0.2 dKH per week ime.

That's just the surface though, and that's just in general. I've seen really awesome SPS tanks that are unstable, high nutrients, look terrible on paper, but beautiful in person. I don't know how that is done - can't help you there.

Generally, the nicest SPS tanks that are the easiest to replicate are very stable, have low nutrients (not "zero", not medium, not high), and have a lot of food going in, lots of fish, and lots of nutrients going out (big skimmer, good maintenance practices, maybe carbon dosing). That said, the nutrient level of the water column isn't always the best measure of nutrients within the system, but it's all we have that we can put on paper.

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
It need not be over feeding. Any feeding provides nutrients. Unless it is coming from the use of tap water or from dying organisms decaying, the source of nutrients is foods. Nearly all of the phosphate in foods ends up in the water, whether it is eaten or not. Same for nitrogen (ammonia, nitrate, etc.).

Ok understood. I guess, as I am thoroughly confused now, how do I get this under control and how to I monitor and keep this under control?

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

Myka said:
In my experience with SPS...

Stable parameters shows up as growth, instability shows up as lack of growth or STN/RTN. The exception to this - unstable alkalinity could show up as lack of growth, STN/RTN, and also lack of color.

Correct/preferable parameters shows up as color, incorrect/less preferable parameters shows up as poor coloration.

Alkalinity shouldn't swing more than 0.1 dKH per day, or 0.2 dKH per week ime.

That's just the surface though, and that's just in general. I've seen really awesome SPS tanks that are unstable, high nutrients, look terrible on paper, but beautiful in person. I don't know how that is done - can't help you there. Generally, the nicest SPS tanks that are the easiest to replicate are very stable, have low nutrients (not "zero", not medium, not high), and have a lot of food going in, lots of fish, and lots of nutrients going out (big skimmer, good maintenance practices, maybe carbon dosing). That said, the nutrient level of the water column isn't always the best measure of nutrients within the system, but it's all we have that we can put on paper.

Thx Myka. yah I am having fits over here. I do need to get the stability of my system better and in check. this much I know.

specialk · Oct 6, 2016

And this is absurd .. I am ready to throw this tank in the garbage and sell everything off ... lol. (kinda laughing but NOT really I'm PI**ED) .. I just did a water change this past Saturday, changed the GFO yesterday (Weds) and this morning I noticed a small build up on my glass (so I mag floated and cleaned it) ... went to work at 8 am and am back at 3:38 pm and there is more stuff building on the glass and just magged float cleaned it again !!! Seems it is building up even quicker even after all that I just did ... this is ridiculous

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 7, 2016

specialk said:
Ok understood. I guess, as I am thoroughly confused now, how do I get this under control and how to I monitor and keep this under control?

Elevated nutrients are generally dealt with by more export. There are rmany good ways:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium

specialk · Oct 7, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Elevated nutrients are generally dealt with by more export. There are rmany good ways:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium

So wait .. forgive me for this -- but you are not saying by having higher phosphate or Nitrate ... meaning having more p04 and higher nitrate would help combat this issue?

Because my nitrate is around 2. (right where it should be)

Myka · Oct 8, 2016

I have to clean the glass on my tank every 2nd day on my current tank - drives me nuts. Some people clean it once a week, my last tank was like this. I couldn't say that my previous tank or my current tank were any more or less colorful that the other. I don't think cleaning the glass is as good an indication of tank health as some people suggest.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 9, 2016

specialk said:
So wait .. forgive me for this -- but you are not saying by having higher phosphate or Nitrate ... meaning having more p04 and higher nitrate would help combat this issue?

Because my nitrate is around 2. (right where it should be)

Sorry, I do not understand the question. I posted ways to reduce them.

A nitrate of 2 ppm is fine, but may not be low enough for the purpose of nitrogen limiting algae present. Going lower may not be desirable, and dealing with algae in other ways may be more so.