Palytoxin discussion

[Zackhavey]

Pretty new reefer here. I just added a zoa frag to my biocube32, when I first started my tank I was pretty quickly drawn to the zoa corals, for obvious reasons I think, one of my lfs scared me off of them right off the bat with the horror stories of palytoxin poisoning, another told me it was no big deal, they frag all the time with no worries. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[bobby.w.hodges]

It can be dangerous, yes, but you can take caution too. If you aren't cutting then up it should never be an issue, don't scrub then off of rocks either or the water will be poisoned. They are fairly safe actually.

 

[Zackhavey]

So the toxins are only present when fragging or the coral is cut, its not like the coral is just covered in poison all the time and if you touch it say to place it, you die?

 

[Pistondog]

So the toxins are only present when fragging or the coral is cut, its not like the coral is just covered in poison all the time and if you touch it say to place it, you die?

That is correct, but only certain zoas and palys are toxic, but you should take precautions and assume toxicity to be safe.
Do not burn or boil rock with palys as this will aerosolize the toxin, which might then be breathed in.
2nd most toxic organic poison, according to some.
Touching with open skin can make you sick.
Wear glasses and gloves when fragging.

 

[Coastie Reefer]

Don’t eat them, rub them on an open wound/sore, don’t squirt them in your eye, and don’t boil them and breathe in the fumes..... and you’re fine...

 

[Oscar47f]

Not only certain, all zoas and palythoa have toxins some greater than others... leathers use toxins too, that being said not a big deal, just make sure you have no open wounds when handling the creatures and when cutting use safety equipment... as stated beforehand don’t boil or do anything dumb to the rocks containing these creatures and you should be ok... and always wash your hands after touching...

 

[Lowkey reefing]

Hello,

Newbie question.

Ok

So i removed the large playgrandis from a nano some frags had algea on em so i just brushed it off, touch em a few times. Placed em in a tank rinsed my hands woth just tap water and dryed em. Later i ate not thinking to wash my hands with soap. Could i of ingested it

 

[vanpire]

Probably not any qty that would adversely affect you. I have done this before.

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Hello,

Newbie question.

Ok

So i removed the large playgrandis from a nano some frags had algea on em so i just brushed it off, touch em a few times. Placed em in a tank rinsed my hands woth just tap water and dryed em. Later i ate not thinking to wash my hands with soap. Could i of ingested it

Your fine!

Unless your not, in that case my bad

 

[Beefyreefy]

Your fine!

Unless your not, in that case my bad

Uh, no response... R.I.P.

 

[Lowkey reefing]

Uh, no response... R.I.P.

Oh sorry,

Ehh still here just waiting. Thanks for the response.

 

[Lowkey reefing]

Your fine!

Unless your not, in that case my bad

Hey thanks for the fast reply!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Generally associated more with Palythoas (Paly) than zoa and always wear eye protection (safety glasses ) and latex gloves for added security

 

[PeterLL]

Does the toxin not set in fairly quickly as well?
I can't recall a source but I thought I have read that if you have been poisoned you'll feel it within about 15 minutes?
That being said it what I do is a face shield which protects Eyes, nose, and mouth. And also some gloves I throw away which protects hand's and any cuts. I also do frag outside so I feel the risk is almost nil.

 

[Katepete722]

Zoas and palys are awesome colorful beginning corals. You do have to be respectful of their potential toxicity, so don’t attack them with a tooth brush and absolutely don’t take a zoa or paly rock out and boil it. The toxin seems to be most damaging (anecdotally) when aerosolized so boiling them is bad news. Many many reefers have kept them with no adverse affect for many years. A tiny portion of reefers make a mistake like those listed above, and a tiny tiny tiny portion (again anecdotally) seem to trigger play toxin through routine maintenance. Treat them like Covid if you think you’re going to tick them off - mask, eye protection, good ventilation.

 

[gentlefish]

This is quite good:
Palytoxin poisoning — Palytoxin derives from the microalgae, Ostreopsis ovate and O. siamensis, corals, and sea anemones. Palytoxin was originally described in Hawaii but more recently has caused health problems among home aquarium enthusiasts [37] and after an algal bloom in Italy [38]. It binds to and disables the sodium/potassium ATPase pump. Human exposure to palytoxin has been described following ingestion of crabs, fish, and shellfish that have fed on palytoxin-containing algae or coral [39], inhalational exposure from corals in fish tanks or sea air [37,40-43], and dermal or eye exposure after touching corals that elaborate the toxin [43-46].

Inhalational exposure from soft corals in aquariums or sea air can produce conjunctivitis, chest pain, fever, shortness of breath, and bronchospasm [39,47]. Rarely, adult respiratory distress syndrome and acute respiratory failure may occur. Treatment is supportive with administration of antihistamines, inhaled bronchodilators, and systemic corticosteroids.

Although rare, ingestion of contaminated seafood (algae- and reef-feeding fish, crustaceans, and shellfish) can produce neurologic symptoms of paresthesias, weakness, severe uncontrollable muscle cramping (potentially leading to rhabdomyolysis), and hot-cold reversal [39]. Additional findings may include diaphoresis, vomiting, diarrhea, and severe abdominal cramping. Poisoning may occur in outbreaks with mortality rates as high as 10 percent [39].

 

[Lowkey reefing]

Does the toxin not set in fairly quickly as well?
I can't recall a source but I thought I have read that if you have been poisoned you'll feel it within about 15 minutes?
That being said it what I do is a face shield which protects Eyes, nose, and mouth. And also some gloves I throw away which protects hand's and any cuts. I also do frag outside so I feel the risk is almost nil.

It varies from what google has oulled up like 15mins to 8hours!

Thats such a broad range, so i figured it qouldnt be a bad thing to seek some guidance here.

 

[PicassoClown04]

Hi! I frag zoas and palys all the time, also have around 60 different frags/colonies happening right now so I think I can offer some advice

If/when you need to frag some zoas (or palys, but for purposes of this post I’ll call em all zoas) there’s a few rules you need to follow:
1- frag in a well-ventilated area. This could be in your garage with the door open, a bathroom with the fan thing on, or even completely outside. The main thing is that you’re getting a lot of air flow because the vapors can be inhaled but if you’re exposed long enough then you kind of start crying just like you do when chopping onions. If you don’t have access to a lot of airflow (aka basement tank or something) just wear a mask and some kind of eye protection and you should be fine as long as the whole process stays under 10 minutes long. For reference, I can cut and glue 20+ frags in 10 minutes so it really shouldn’t be that much of a time constraint unless it’s your first time fragging.

2- Don’t cut through a polyp! If you look at zoas when they’re closed, you’ll see that they were polyps connected by a thin membrane or mat. Cut between polyps, not directly through one. Only the polyps release palytoxin, the mat will not.

3- always make sure the zoas are closed before you frag them! Fragging zoas that are still open creates many unnecessary risks. I made this mistake once and only once. Did you know that zoas can SQUIRT water laced with palytoxin several inches if you attempt to frag them while they’re still open? You do now! Plus, its hard to see what you’re doing when all the polyps are still open so it’s better to just have them closed

That pretty much sums up the do’s and dont’s of fragging zoas. Now for a few general handling tips.

-Touching a zoa will not cause it to release palytoxin. The reason they even have palytoxin is to avoid being eaten, therefore they will only release it if the polyp is actually being eaten or if it’s being cut/damaged

-ripping/damaging a single polyp accidentally in your system won’t do any harm at all. Unless you’re running like a 5 gallon tank, don’t sweat it

-don’t boil zoas! If you have a rock with zoas on it and you’re looking to kill the zoas, do NOT boil it! This will cause all the zoas to release palytoxin which then evaporates into the steam and causes a potentially deadly gas to form! I suggest putting them in a blackout container, injecting with poison (aiptasia X, bleach, h202, kalk paste, etc), or simply leaving them outside for a week.

-In general, zoas are not more dangerous than any other coral. Unless you’re allergic to palytoxin, the effects (if you’re exposed enough to even have effects) will last less than a day and you should not be in any distress. The worst should be a mild headache; if you have trouble breathing or have extreme pain (say if you rubbed palytoxin into your eye) please visit an urgent care/ER IMMEDIATELY! Just don’t be dumb/careless and you’re gonna be okay

 

[Lowkey reefing]

This is quite good:
Palytoxin poisoning — Palytoxin derives from the microalgae, Ostreopsis ovate and O. siamensis, corals, and sea anemones. Palytoxin was originally described in Hawaii but more recently has caused health problems among home aquarium enthusiasts [37] and after an algal bloom in Italy [38]. It binds to and disables the sodium/potassium ATPase pump. Human exposure to palytoxin has been described following ingestion of crabs, fish, and shellfish that have fed on palytoxin-containing algae or coral [39], inhalational exposure from corals in fish tanks or sea air [37,40-43], and dermal or eye exposure after touching corals that elaborate the toxin [43-46].

Inhalational exposure from soft corals in aquariums or sea air can produce conjunctivitis, chest pain, fever, shortness of breath, and bronchospasm [39,47]. Rarely, adult respiratory distress syndrome and acute respiratory failure may occur. Treatment is supportive with administration of antihistamines, inhaled bronchodilators, and systemic corticosteroids.

Although rare, ingestion of contaminated seafood (algae- and reef-feeding fish, crustaceans, and shellfish) can produce neurologic symptoms of paresthesias, weakness, severe uncontrollable muscle cramping (potentially leading to rhabdomyolysis), and hot-cold reversal [39]. Additional findings may include diaphoresis, vomiting, diarrhea, and severe abdominal cramping. Poisoning may occur in outbreaks with mortality rates as high as 10 percent [39].

Great information just have to figure out how to decider the knowledge.

 

[RVA REEF]

post a picture of the zoa frag you got and we can let you know if its toxic.