Palytoxin Thread Apology.

[brandon429]

Ill believe it the day one person posts a hospital-funded and closed chromatograph assay of their blood or lymph etc. till then, its 99% overstated.

*i believe your bacterial infection diagnosis however.

 

[MnFish1]

I simply think its overstated that's all. aware the compounds exist and I think the marine bac risk is the highest risk from handling. I dont believe the 'toxin is aerosolized from basic works like Tim said above. agreed some have been sick by it

1% of those who claimed the toxin were made sick by it. the other 99% just got through reading headlines or this thread
I think its 99% hype. we'd have seen it, we were knee deep in reefs for twenty years and I learned from folks who'd been doing it 20 before its not been seen out here, that type of of consequence or the hype part where all ailments are attributed to paly. I dont believe the man in Dallas died from it either it was a headline since he owned a reef tank and we'll never get closure on causatives. I 100% dont agree those zoanthids above poisoned anyone, it was the bad burrito. or the wal mart door handle, but it wasnt that set of zo's. those specific ones have been traded in lubbock bare handedly and then go out for burgers after thousands and thousands of times. I simply can't accept something my highly reefing city of 300K has never seen as common or likely.

One way to tell whether there is a problem is a temporal relationship. For example - there is a well-known case where someone actually took live rock and boiled it - and shortly thereafter the entire household (including the dog) was sick. Whether this was another toxin from the rock - or palytoxin - you're correct, who knows. I will say I think its a little irresponsible to say 99% is hype, when there are no real 'studies'. If I was cutting up palys and 15 minutes into It I got violently ill, I would assume it was the palys. If I worked in my tank on Tuesday, and got a headache Wednesday, I would not think it was palytoxin.

 

[MnFish1]

Ill believe it the day one person posts a hospital-funded and closed chromatograph assay of their blood or lymph etc. till then, its 99% overstated.

*i believe your bacterial infection diagnosis however.

A Case of Palytoxin Poisoning in a Home Aquarium Enthusiast and His Family

Inhalational exposure to palytoxin is an extremely rare cause of respiratory distress. This little-known marine toxin has the potential to cause significant morbidity and mortality. Toxicity has been best documented in cases of ingestion but has also been seen in cases of dermal exposure and...

www.hindawi.com

Since it's common knowledge that the amount of palytoxin is extremely small to cause symptoms, and it there is no diagnostic test available, your comments seem odd to me. Its also well known that palytoxin exposure (from inhalation) is extremely rare. If you are wearing gloves, exposure is extremely rare. If you are handling coral for only a very short period of time palytoxin exposure is very rare. But - there is no evidence of which I'm aware that 99% of 'reports' are 'hype'. I just read a case report that 200 people were sickened with palytoxin from cyanobacteria during a bloom in the mediterranean.

TO me, your request for a chromatographic study is unreasonable. There are MANY diseases that are diagnosed without a 'blood test'. Most of diagnosis in the real world is history, exposure, physical exam and symptoms. There are hundreds of diseases for which there is no 'blood test'

 

[arking_mark]

I hate to wake in on controversial topics.

After reading several papers and articles on Palytoxin, I believe that the toxin is limited to a very few number of Palythoas...and not Zoanthids.

I also believe that many "unexplained" illnesses are blamed on this toxin when there are many more reasonable common causes for them...and hence the hype of Palytoxins.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Palytoxin has been known about.
Sorry it should be informed to other as far as green palys. Grandis palys. Any large paly that will slime up.

People now days are a lot more hands on with their fish tanks. They dose and control the water chemistry with chemicals.
Used to be a lot more natural hands off approach.
My opinion.
D

 

[brandon429]

boiling live rock w palys/ agreed thats asking for it lol. agreed. nobody in lubbock would ever do that im regionally spoiled in my assumptions as well.

 

[arking_mark]

Palytoxin has been known about.
Sorry it should be informed to other as far as green palys. Grandis palys. Any large paly that will slime up.

People now days are a lot more hands on with their fish tanks. They dose and control the water chemistry with chemicals.
Used to be a lot more natural hands off approach.
My opinion.
D

I've been working with and fraggung Grandis Palys in my tanks for like 20 years. I don't think they are toxic.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Ok. You would take the mucus they put out and rub it on your skin?
Lol. Ive had no problems with grandis either. Green palys yes ive gotten sick for a day or so. Multiple times. I dont wear gloves or.glasses.
They are toxic imo. Palythoas. Maybe not zoas but palys yes i think its better to be safer than sorry.
D

 

[MnFish1]

I hate to wake in on controversial topics.

After reading several papers and articles on Palytoxin, I believe that the toxin is limited to a very few number of Palythoas...and not Zoanthids.

I also believe that many "unexplained" illnesses are blamed on this toxin when there are many more reasonable common causes for them...and hence the hype of Palytoxins.

Actually I think its a good discussion.

1. It gets confusing. Palythoa is a Zoanthid. "While the most well-known zoanthids are the zooxanthellate genera found in tropical and sub-tropical waters (primarily Zoanthus and Palythoa), many other species and genera exist, some still relatively unknown to science.[4][5][6][7] Many zoanthids (in particular the genera Epizoanthus and Parazoanthus) are often found growing on other marine invertebrates." So when you talk about differentiating 'Zoas' and 'Palys' to me its important to be sure you're talking about the same thing.
2. Palytoxin is widespread: "Palytoxin occurs at least in tropics and subtropics where it is made by Palythoa corals and Ostreopsis dinoflagellates, or possibly by bacteria occurring in these organisms. It can be found in many more species like fish and crabs due to the process of biomagnification."
3. At least according to the government of South Australia, Both Palythoa and Zoanthus can contain palytoxin: "What is Zoanthid Coral? ... These decorative ornamental corals are commonly called 'button polyps', 'sun polyps' or 'zoas'. Species of Zoanthid coral (e.g. Palythoa species and Zoanthus species) can contain a highly toxic, naturally-occurring and potentially lethal substance known as Palytoxin."

Not pointing this out to agree - but to agree with you that there is a lot of information out there that is contradictory - and whether only 10, 50, or 99 percent of 'cases' are something else, to me, the discussion underscores the fact that there are lots of things in our tanks that can cause significant illness (though rare), and that proper careful handling of fish and corals will prevent most of these issues.

 

[arking_mark]

Ok. You would take the mucus they put out and rub it on your skin?
Lol. Ive had no problems with grandis either. Green palys yes ive gotten sick for a day or so. Multiple times. I dont wear gloves or.glasses.
They are toxic imo. Palythoas. Maybe not zoas but palys yes i think its better to be safer than sorry.
D

I've deffinately had their mucus all over my hands...but I do thoroughly wash my hands anytime I'm in the tank or fragging. I also more often then not wear gloves these days.

 

[MnFish1]

I've been working with and fraggung Grandis Palys in my tanks for like 20 years. I don't think they are toxic.

Do you wear gloves? Any protective equipment? There are hundreds of articles (scientific articles, not board posts) that disagree with you. The main problem with your statement - is that even people who study these organisms disagree with the actual 'species' just using observation. The new studies involve a total revision of the area - using DNA. I agree with you that not all zoanthids contain palytoxin. The problem is that the average person can't tell them apart without a microscope (this is from a scientific article - not an opinion)

 

[arking_mark]

Do you wear gloves? Any protective equipment? There are hundreds of articles (scientific articles, not board posts) that disagree with you. The main problem with your statement - is that even people who study these organisms disagree with the actual 'species' just using observation. The new studies involve a total revision of the area - using DNA. I agree with you that not all zoanthids contain palytoxin. The problem is that the average person can't tell them apart without a microscope (this is from a scientific article - not an opinion)

I usually wear gloves these days and have glasses.

However, with regard to the Grandis Paly, I've been fragging it for like 15-20 years...before I was more careful.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I wear glasses prescription.
Not safty glasses or gloves like i said. I too also wash my hands up to my elbows and rinse and dry real good anytime ive touched the saltwater.
D

 

[MnFish1]

I usually wear gloves these days and have glasses.

However, with regard to the Grandis Paly, I've been fragging it for like 15-20 years...before I was more careful.

Curious - why do you wear gloves and glasses today (what changed your mind)

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

It is ignorant of me to think these people dont wash their hands?
D

 

[arking_mark]

Curious - why do you wear gloves and glasses today (what changed your mind)

There are lots of things in my tank that can potentially be harmful including my Magnificent Foxface. And there are lots of things on my hands that could be harmful to my tank. Gloves and/or clean hands is just a good practice.

 

[ColdWafflez]

Can you take the picture with more whites? The blues kinda wash everything out without filters.

sorry! this is the best I can do. I got rid of the zoas as soon as I recovered. I dont think I'll ever be getting zoas again after going through that experience...

 

[blasterman]

Couple points:

I've seen many post in Zoanthid forums over the years go to such paranoid extremes as not allowing children in the same room as their tank if a water change is being made, or wearing outright hazmat gear when moving rastas around a tank. My favorite was the guy claiming his wife miscarried because he added zoas to his tank.

About 20 years ago I was helping my step dad take down his 55gal reef tank. It was pretty messy and he hadn't cleaned under the canopy in years. A half hour after the move my face and eyes started burning, my sinuses filled up, felt sick to my stomach, etc. He didn't keep zoas or palys. Something in that tank caused a severe allergic reaction. Dont know what it was, but it wasn't palytoxin.

 

[elysics]

Has there been any scientific progress as to the actual source of the toxin? Whether it is the actual zoanthid itself synthesizing the compound or symbiotic/eaten dinoflagellates or cyanobacteria?

Because, in the latter case, having a thousand confirmed cases of a particular zoa being toxin free might mean nothing if the 1001st happens to come with the dangerous symbiont. And conversely, a super toxic one might be rendered inert when given different symbionts in aquaculture.

 

[arking_mark]

sorry! this is the best I can do. I got rid of the zoas as soon as I recovered. I dont think I'll ever be getting zoas again after going through that experience...

That does look like green button Palys.