Parameters a bit wonky- causing my cyano?

SallyWho · Oct 27, 2019

Good mornin'! I've been dealing with cyano in my 120g for a few months now. I do about 30g water changes every other week, but I'll admit that I haven't been testing like I should. Before the cyano bloom, I had a GHA problem, so I tossed some GFO in a filter bag into my refugium. The algae went away in a couple of weeks, but then I noticed my chaeto was turning white and wilting away. Then BOOM! Cyano! It's present on the rocks but not overwhelming, but it's overwhelming the sand bed. Stirring it up doesn't seem to get it up to the overflow and it's hard to scoop out with a net. I did some testing this morning and here are the results:

Temp: 78°F
Salinity: 1.026
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
Phos: 0.03
Alk: 7.6
Ca: 460
Mg: 1350

Yup, you read that right- zero nitrites and nitrates. I even repeated the tests to be sure. The tank's been up and running for over a year; I've got three fish and a few easy corals in there (zoas, trumpet, duncan, a lepto). It's not like the tank isn't cycled. Could the GFO have stripped my nitrates? Are the zeroes part of the reason I'm dealing with cyano that won't go away, and if I raise them up a little, do you think the cyano will die off? I tossed the GFO out last week anyway, since the algae was gone. How can I get detectable nitrates again? I already feed pretty heavily for three fish. Turn off my skimmer for a few hours a day? Let my filter socks get good and nasty before changing them? What are your thoughts? Thanks!

taricha · Oct 27, 2019

Would love to see pics of the affected areas.
@Dan_P might find this of interest.
It's looking increasingly like cyano mats in our tanks are often driven by the hyper-local conditions of accumulated waste at the substrate, and what we measure in the water tells us almost nothing about that.
That is to say - you have algae material dying and decomposing in the tank (plus your "heavy feeding" fish food) that may be capable of driving cyano growth. Because nutrients may be zero where you test, but the cyano is getting "target fed" so to speak.

(BTW, gfo isn't killing your nitrates. It knocks down phosphate pretty strongly though.)

Dan_P · Oct 27, 2019

taricha said:
Would love to see pics of the affected areas.
@Dan_P might find this of interest.
It's looking increasingly like cyano mats in our tanks are often driven by the hyper-local conditions of accumulated waste at the substrate, and what we measure in the water tells us almost nothing about that.
That is to say - you have algae material dying and decomposing in the tank (plus your "heavy feeding" fish food) that may be capable of driving cyano growth. Because nutrients may be zero where you test, but the cyano is getting "target fed" so to speak.

(BTW, gfo isn't killing your nitrates. It knocks down phosphate pretty strongly though.)

Definitely would appreciate pictures. And yeah, it seems the cyanobacteria films are being fed by the substrate and rock surfaces.

As we culture cyanobacteria under various conditions, we are gaining insight into their nutritional needs. For example, cyanobacteria do not grow well at low levels of nitrate and phosphate. Existing cultures starved of nitrate lose their color and quit growing. High light intensity found in reef aquaria would bleach cyanobacteria if they were not well supplied with nitrogen. @taricha performed experiments that gave us hints about how cyanobacteria can grow vigorously when the medium has low nitrates and phosphates. I am following up on his work with different species of cyanobacteria to further clarify what is going on.

WVNed · Oct 27, 2019

I have 3 tanks on a common sump
2 have cyano and 1 doesn't.
Explain that to me.

This one is full of algae. The other 2 aren't.

I just did a blackout on this tank to knock it down some. It was a lot worse in this tank.

The 2 with it have LED lighting. The one that doesn't has MH/T-5 lighting.
My nitrates run between 5-20 and I have to dose phosephates. They test to around 0.1 meaning I get enough blue on a Salifert test to be between .03 and 0.1.

taricha · Oct 27, 2019

WVNed said:
I have 3 tanks on a common sump
2 have cyano and 1 doesn't.
Explain that to me.

Yet another great demonstration that the bulk water properties are not all that important when it comes to cyano!
The lights can make a difference and I'd like to see details on models / bulbs so I can compare spectral properties.
That said, I grow cyano great under T5, and the more important difference might be the local waste and particulates that accumulate in each tank. I see macro algae in both tanks that have cyano, but none in the cyano-free system. It's also possible you are also feeding different foods in each system so different kind of waste collects.

WVNed · Oct 27, 2019

Top tank is a 240 mixed. It gets fish food like LRS 4 250w 10k MH 8 T-5s. I just changed from 20k to 10k MH bulbs
Middle tank is a 75 with a Photon V2. It has an eel, Lionfish and 2 other fish. It gets fish chunks, live shrimps and LRS. I just changed the program to be less blue and more white so the fish look better.
last is a 20H with a BB over it, both channels running 60%. No fish. I put some pellets in it for the inverts

SallyWho · Oct 28, 2019

Here's a couple of early morning pics. There's a little bit on the rocks, but there are sizeable mats in the sandbed. Every time I try to scoop it out sand always seems to settle over the top, making it hard to see its extent. In case it's relevant, my lighting is two old Radion XR30s (8hr ramping photoperiod) and two T-5 retrofit bulbs (6hr photoperiod). For flow, I have a gyre XF250 and in the opposite back corner, a powerhead to keep water moving along the back bottom of the tank. I had a diatom problem back there until I added the powerhead- incidentally, there's little to no cyano back there. I think I set the gyre to max out at 60%- if more flow is what I need, should I speed it up or add the other XF250 that I have stored away somewhere? Two XF250s seems a bit overkill for a 4' 120g, though.

You mentioned that localized food sources could be what's feeding the cyano in the sandbed. I have several large cerinth and a few nassarius snails down in there. Is it time for something more- more snails, a sand sifting starfish or goby?

taricha · Oct 28, 2019

SallyWho said:
Here's a couple of early morning pics. There's a little bit on the rocks, but there are sizeable mats in the sandbed. Every time I try to scoop it out sand always seems to settle over the top, making it hard to see its extent.

And now I think it may not be cyano at all.
Cyano ought to form a film over the top of sand. (But maybe it was too early in the day...)

SallyWho · Oct 28, 2019

taricha said:
And now I think it may not be cyano at all.
Cyano ought to form a film over the top of sand. (But maybe it was too early in the day...)

Unless I stir it up, it does stay settled like this. But it is red and very slimy, so I assumed it was cyano. What else could it be?

taricha · Oct 28, 2019

SallyWho said:
Unless I stir it up, it does stay settled like this. But it is red and very slimy, so I assumed it was cyano. What else could it be?

A couple of things. dinos and cyano come to mind.
Here's a twilliard test for (red) cyano using peroxide

Positive identification of cyanobacteria

Hi R2R members and visitors! I have one topic I would like to point out. The dreaded cyanobacteria Now most of you may know I spend countless hours studying this exact bacteria. Well I want to let you all know that most of the cases are not the common cyanobacteria that we see plague our tanks...

www.reef2reef.com

and here's a protocol for dinoflagellates

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

@mcarroll I am linking a thread I started that noticed my ORP was super low and I thought that was probably due to dinos. Anyone else notice the same thing? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/can-dinos-cause-really-low-orp.325625/#post-4035164 I'll continue updating there.

www.reef2reef.com

MERKEY · Oct 28, 2019

I have no clue how it's doing that in different tanks with the same sump! I am watching along for when I have multiple tanks on a single loop. Like in 10 years hahah

so jealous!

On a side question and not to distract from your original post but I see you have a multibar angel amd I am thinking of getting one soon and have heard they are hard to keep. What has your experience been? Thank you!

taricha · Oct 29, 2019

WVNed said:
Top tank is a 240 mixed. It gets fish food like LRS 4 250w 10k MH 8 T-5s. I just changed from 20k to 10k MH bulbs
Middle tank is a 75 with a Photon V2. It has an eel, Lionfish and 2 other fish. It gets fish chunks, live shrimps and LRS. I just changed the program to be less blue and more white so the fish look better.
last is a 20H with a BB over it, both channels running 60%. No fish. I put some pellets in it for the inverts

interesting. different food and diff lights, so both explanations are possible. I'll look into the spectrum and see if anything noteworthy comes up.

Dan_P · Oct 29, 2019

taricha said:
Yet another great demonstration that the bulk water properties are not all that important when it comes to cyano!
The lights can make a difference and I'd like to see details on models / bulbs so I can compare spectral properties.
That said, I grow cyano great under T5, and the more important difference might be the local waste and particulates that accumulate in each tank. I see macro algae in both tanks that have cyano, but none in the cyano-free system. It's also possible you are also feeding different foods in each system so different kind of waste collects.

Light intensity drives cyanobacteria growth. If the nitrogen and phosphorous levels are high enough, a luxurious cyanobacteria film can form. If the levels are not adequate, existing films can bleach and new growth can be limited.

In an aquarium, locally high levels of nitrogen and phosphorous seem to be the explanation for localized growth. This could occur if particulate organic carbon collects in the infected area. @taricha performed a clever demonstration of this in the lab and his findings have influenced my study of cyanobacteria nutrition.

SallyWho · Oct 29, 2019

taricha said:
A couple of things. dinos and cyano come to mind.
Here's a twilliard test for (red) cyano using peroxide

Positive identification of cyanobacteria

Hi R2R members and visitors! I have one topic I would like to point out. The dreaded cyanobacteria Now most of you may know I spend countless hours studying this exact bacteria. Well I want to let you all know that most of the cases are not the common cyanobacteria that we see plague our tanks...

www.reef2reef.com

and here's a protocol for dinoflagellates

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

@mcarroll I am linking a thread I started that noticed my ORP was super low and I thought that was probably due to dinos. Anyone else notice the same thing? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/can-dinos-cause-really-low-orp.325625/#post-4035164 I'll continue updating there.

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you! I'll do this experiment as soon as I can. Do you think microscopic analysis could be helpful? I don't have a microscope, but I work in a laboratory and have access to medical grade 'scopes...I might take a sample to work anyway, just because! LOL!

If this is indeed cyano being fed by local areas of nutrients, should part of my treatment plan include more sand sifting/detritus eating critters? If so, what do you suggest? Thanks!

taricha · Oct 29, 2019

SallyWho said:
Do you think microscopic analysis could be helpful? I don't have a microscope, but I work in a laboratory and have access to medical grade 'scopes...I might take a sample to work anyway, just because! LOL!

Oh absolutely! Those tests are for people who can't get microscope access. You should absolutely take samples and get them under the scope for definitive answer to what is in your sand.

SallyWho said:
If this is indeed cyano being fed by local areas of nutrients, should part of my treatment plan include more sand sifting/detritus eating critters? If so, what do you suggest? Thanks!

Maybe? Sand sifting gobies aren't looking for waste. They are eating the sandbed fauna that live off the waste. So they are kind of on the wrong team. Some speculative ideas: I prefer slow movers like sea cucumbers who consider dirty sand a good meal. Ceriths will also make a meal out of fish waste. High energy things like fish excrete waste that's still rich enough to drive nuisance growth.

Cory · Oct 31, 2019

Same screen different lights on both sides:

stanleo · Oct 31, 2019

When I started my tank I had a cheap crappy light that was supposed to be good on a reef tank. I had low nutrients nitrate 2ppm and phosphate .03ppm. I had cyano everywhere. I changed the light to a better Red Sea ReefLED 90s and within a week, no more cyano. Poor lighting and low nutrients can absolutely cause a cyano outbreak. This is evident in the fact that your tank with the MH/T5 is clear and your others with LED are having cyano even though they are on the same water source.

If you can, improve the lighting, wait a few days and gently scrub everything with a soft bristle brush.

SallyWho · Nov 1, 2019

Okay, I finally had some time to do some tests! I scooped up a bit of the red slime and put it in a cup of tank water, added hydrogen peroxide, and waited. After a time, the sample floated to the top & bubbles were observed at the surface around the inner perimeter of the cup. 8hrs later, the water was pink & the sample was green. I took another sample to work and put it under the microscope (my coworkers and I all ooh'd and aah'd over the cool stuff in there). What we found looks very much like the google image search results for cyano. So now what do I do about it? There's so much info it makes my brain lock up. Raise my nitrates (how?)? Manual removal as often as possible? More water changes? Fewer water changes? Crank up my gyre for more flow? Stir the sand bed daily, or get critters that will sift/clean it? Different CUC members?

OA3B · Feb 1, 2020

SallyWho said:
Okay, I finally had some time to do some tests! I scooped up a bit of the red slime and put it in a cup of tank water, added hydrogen peroxide, and waited. After a time, the sample floated to the top & bubbles were observed at the surface around the inner perimeter of the cup. 8hrs later, the water was pink & the sample was green. I took another sample to work and put it under the microscope (my coworkers and I all ooh'd and aah'd over the cool stuff in there). What we found looks very much like the google image search results for cyano. So now what do I do about it? There's so much info it makes my brain lock up. Raise my nitrates (how?)? Manual removal as often as possible? More water changes? Fewer water changes? Crank up my gyre for more flow? Stir the sand bed daily, or get critters that will sift/clean it? Different CUC members?