Parwise

[ITCreefculture]

Interesting. I was able to find this fixture's documentation on the manufacturer's website. This is what they suggest for the spectrum output. (I assume you're using the "Reefer" diode set)

It's totally understandable that technology has limitations, especially at this incredibly reasonable price point. However, it would be nice to know what those limitations are so that we can make an informed decision. I really hope you guys aren't taking this personally.

Right now, I'm kind of obsessed with peridinin. As part of that, I'm constantly looking for bulbs that can give me reduced royal blue output and increased cyan and green. If the PARWise can help me compare bulbs to identify the small differences in those areas of spectrum, then I might seriously consider buying one. If those spectrums are a weakness for it because of some kind of rounding between measurement points or something, then it discourages me quite a lot.

I think if you truly want to research the specific output differences from a light fixture and are searching for data from a very specific Diodes in a mixed output… look for or rent a Seneye Spectra (our fully fledged single nm spectrometer) which can be used under water! Because that’s another thing and topic for another time.

Unless you’re testing just those LEDs on their own channel without other Blues on, the regular blues may hide the differences in the graph on PARwise as you can’t get the individual nitty gritty data as it doesn’t have the resolution.

As a day to day comparative tool - it’s worth having one for trips to the LFS, when you buy new corals or other reefers to compare general spectral outputs, DLI measurements (no one’s talking about this yet!) and of course PAR.

I’m really grateful you guys are all up for discussions!

I’m going to be at AquaShella in Dallas on Coralvues booth if any of you are there and want to say Hi!

 

[oreo54]

I think if you truly want to research the specific output differences from a light fixture and are searching for data from a very specific Diodes in a mixed output… look for or rent a Seneye Spectra (our fully fledged single nm spectrometer) which can be used under water! Because that’s another thing and topic for another time.

5nm increments should "find" a cyan diode..

With modern ramping leds a dli measurement will help to compare against old On/off tech.

BTW what is the sample rate?

 

[ITCreefculture]

5nm increments should "find" a cyan diode..

With modern ramping leds a dli measurement will help to compare against old On/off tech.

BTW what is the sample rate?

We’re sampling approx every 300ms so the GUI it feels very responsive but that can depend on the actual device’s performance you’re using to display the data in how quick you see changes as all that info needs to get to the web app and back out again.

I think for DLI - sharing as a result of the total energy you put into the tank in 24hrs knowing the and comparing spectrum and peak PAR could be pretty cool for comparing growth rates or colouring in various species.

 

[Cell]

For hobby use, I want my par meter to give me readings that align with current par recommendations, whether the actual par measurement is true or reads high/low due to spectrum. It's sounds like the Parwise may give a more accurate par reading because it "can ignore parts of the spectrum", that Apogee cannot, but if the recommend par levels shared by a vendor are all based off an Apogee, then the Apogee to me is more practical.

 

[Dburr1014]

For hobby use, I want my par meter to give me readings that align with current par recommendations, whether the actual par measurement is true or reads high/low due to spectrum. It's sounds like the Parwise may give a more accurate par reading because it "can ignore parts of the spectrum", that Apogee cannot, but if the recommend par levels shared by a vendor are all based off an Apogee, then the Apogee to me is more practical.

That's exactly it. Everyone uses the apogee and based readings for that. But some of that number isn't used by the animal. So, what do we do?
I feel that if you have the correct spectrum you can dial in the par. Spectrum may be more important anyway. We, for the most part, know the depth of water the corals come from. From there we can dial in par.

 

[ConsummatePro]

For hobby use, I want my par meter to give me readings that align with current par recommendations, whether the actual par measurement is true or reads high/low due to spectrum. It's sounds like the Parwise may give a more accurate par reading because it "can ignore parts of the spectrum", that Apogee cannot, but if the recommend par levels shared by a vendor are all based off an Apogee, then the Apogee to me is more practical.

I agree with this but the extra insights from spectrum may become useful for people to replicate other’s setups and may shape future advances.

I wonder if the PARwise team could do an “Apogee 510” emulation mode to include the same wavelengths as the apogee and then users can choose their scale (and also compare and in the process learn more).

 

[ConsummatePro]

I thought I could do a fun weekend experiment with some leftover LEDs I have from another project. Unfortunately the LEDs don’t give a wavelength but just for fun I wired them up to a breadboard and took readings of each LED. The PARwise definitely shows different peaks and the graph and color swatch definitely reflected the chosen LED. Except whites which as @ITCreefculture says, seem to have a few different spectra mixed in (esp blue in the cool white).

Unfortunately I didn’t have the UV LEDs on hand - I used them to make a point source for curing 3D resin prints and I can’t find that tool I made right now.

So in the absence of reported LED wavelengths this isn’t useful for confirming the accuracy of the PARwise but I thought I’d share anyhow. Excuse the janky breadboard work. The LED wires are so thin they didn’t reliably stick in the holes so tape held them in place while I did the readings!


Orange

“pink” looks purple to my eye

blue

Green

Yellow

Chartreuse

Red

White:

warm white:

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I thought I could do a fun weekend experiment with some leftover LEDs I have from another project. Unfortunately the LEDs don’t give a wavelength but just for fun I wired them up to a breadboard and took readings of each LED. The PARwise definitely shows different peaks and the graph and color swatch definitely reflected the chosen LED. Except whites which as @ITCreefculture says, seem to have a few different spectra mixed in (esp blue in the cool white).

Unfortunately I didn’t have the UV LEDs on hand - I used them to make a point source for curing 3D resin prints and I can’t find that tool I made right now.

So in the absence of reported LED wavelengths this isn’t useful for confirming the accuracy of the PARwise but I thought I’d share anyhow. Excuse the janky breadboard work. The LED wires are so thin they didn’t reliably stick in the holes so tape held them in place while I did the readings!


Orange

“pink” looks purple to my eye

blue

Green

Yellow

Chartreuse

Red

White:

warm white:

Brilliant! Thanks for doing that!

 

[Dburr1014]

So I bought a new bulb and again it says tuna blue. I put it in and it's given me the exact same Spectrum. The lights are in the same position as the one I got before so now I don't know what to think except maybe the blue and white one is the one I want not the tune of blue. That means Dana riddle didn't check the tuna blue, he also checked the blue and white bulb. I'm so confused!

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

So I bought a new bulb and again it says tuna blue. I put it in and it's given me the exact same Spectrum. The lights are in the same position as the one I got before so now I don't know what to think except maybe the blue and white one is the one I want not the tune of blue. That means Dana riddle didn't check the tuna blue, he also checked the blue and white bulb. I'm so confused!

I don't think Dana Riddle tested the blue and white. His tests found a significant amount of 490nm cyan.

You aren't seeing any cyan at all, which is confusing to me also.

The LED placement in your bulb tells me that it's definitely the "Tuna Blue" and there is no chance that it's the "Blue and White". The "Blue and White" is only royal blue and white. No cyan diode included. And white diodes are usually deficient in cyan.

Based on the diodes that the manufacturer claims are included in the "Blue and White" version, it's going to be significantly worse that what you are measuring for the one that you have.

The only two explanations that make sense in my mind is that either:
1) The manufacturer stopped using cyan diodes and substituted them for more royal blues.
OR
2) There is some kind of sensitivity issue with the PARWise in the cyan specific spectrum range.

I wonder if you could use some kind of tape to block all of the diodes in your bulb and measure their individual spectrum one at a time and see what each diode is putting out? Then you could check them against what the manufacturer is claiming to include?

 

[Dburr1014]

I don't think Dana Riddle tested the blue and white. His tests found a significant amount of 490nm cyan.

You aren't seeing any cyan at all, which is confusing to me also.

The LED placement in your bulb tells me that it's definitely the "Tuna Blue" and there is no chance that it's the "Blue and White". The "Blue and White" is only royal blue and white. No cyan diode included. And white diodes are usually deficient in cyan.

Based on the diodes that the manufacturer claims are included in the "Blue and White" version, it's going to be significantly worse that what you are measuring for the one that you have.

The only two explanations that make sense in my mind is that either:
1) The manufacturer stopped using cyan diodes and substituted them for more royal blues.
OR
2) There is some kind of sensitivity issue with the PARWise in the cyan specific spectrum range.

I wonder if you could use some kind of tape to block all of the diodes in your bulb and measure their individual spectrum one at a time and see what each diode is putting out? Then you could check them against what the manufacturer is claiming to include?

Yes, I can probably do that.
I'll have to find some time.. Maybe next weekend.
This is boggling to me.
On a side note, I have an old daylight home depot flood light I use for the cheato. Plenty of cyan there.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

On a side note, I have an old daylight home depot flood light I use for the cheato. Plenty of cyan there.

I'm not sure that I follow what you mean. Cyan seems to be the only color that is almost completely missing from the graph. Look at 480 nm.

EDIT: I guess the actual definition of "Cyan" is 490 to 520. So if you go by that definition, then yes, there is some in that bulb. I'm specifically look for 470 to 490 to hit the peak of Peridinin absorbance. I've just been calling that spectrum cyan. Is this actually 'light blue'? I'm not sure.

 

[Dburr1014]

I'm not sure that I follow what you mean. Cyan seems to be the only color that is almost completely missing from the graph. Look at 480 nm.

EDIT: I guess the actual definition of "Cyan" is 490 to 520. So if you go by that definition, then yes, there is some in that bulb. I'm specifically look for 470 to 490 to hit the peak of Peridinin absorbance. I've just been calling that spectrum cyan. Is this actually 'light blue'? I'm not sure.

Oh right, I thought it was more green but I guess it is bluish green.

 

[Dburr1014]

I finally had some time to play with my Reefbreeders v2. I have no lenses in the fixture.
I 100% each channel one at a time. The parwise was about 5" under the water and flow was off.


This is what I settled on for the display. I think it has the best rendition for the lighting.

 

[Dburr1014]

Now for the frag light.


What I ended up doing was taking some painters tape and covering each light source and leaving one exposed and took a par reading. I think I got them all it was kind of difficult and barbaric but this is what I got.
I know there is only 15 lights and I have 17 pictures, I must have duplicated a couple.
Out of all the pictures only one stands out to be in the Cyan Spectrum. I wish it had two bulbs like that it would make a big difference.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Your test on the Reefbreeders showed that the PARWise definitely has no issue showing light blue into cyan with that cool blue channel that peaks in the 470nm range, and the green channel in the 520nm range. So that rules out issues with the PARWise detecting those colors.

The ABI bulb claims to have "2x 460-470nm, 1x 470-475nm, 1x 490-495nm", and not a single diode that you tested looks like any of those that they're claiming to have. At this point, I fully believe that the manufacturer just stopped using the light blue and cyan diodes and opted for cheaper royal blue diodes and assumed that no one would be able to tell the difference.

That was a fantastic set of tests of the PARWise though.

 

[Dburr1014]

Your test on the Reefbreeders showed that the PARWise definitely has no issue showing light blue into cyan with that cool blue channel that peaks in the 470nm range, and the green channel in the 520nm range. So that rules out issues with the PARWise detecting those colors.

The ABI bulb claims to have "2x 460-470nm, 1x 470-475nm, 1x 490-495nm", and not a single diode that you tested looks like any of those that they're claiming to have. At this point, I fully believe that the manufacturer just stopped using the light blue and cyan diodes and opted for cheaper royal blue diodes and assumed that no one would be able to tell the difference.

That was a fantastic set of tests of the PARWise though.

The ABI bulb is still coloring up the frags. They had all browned out and since with this light they are looking better.
Jacob's parts insisted that they test everyone of these bulbs in that they comply with their picture that they show us. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I would like to have a bulb that look like that picture but I don't think I'll get it from this bulb I don't care how many I return and buy, it's just isn't going to happen.

 

[oreo54]

I'm specifically look for 470 to 490 to hit the peak of Peridinin absorbance. I've just been calling that spectrum cyan. Is this actually 'light blue'? I'm not sure.

Kind of both...

Your test on the Reefbreeders showed that the PARWise definitely has no issue showing light blue into cyan with that cool blue channel that peaks in the 470nm range, and the green channel in the 520nm range. So that rules out issues with the PARWise detecting those colors.

The ABI bulb claims to have "2x 460-470nm, 1x 470-475nm, 1x 490-495nm", and not a single diode that you tested looks like any of those that they're claiming to have. At this point, I fully believe that the manufacturer just stopped using the light blue and cyan diodes and opted for cheaper royal blue diodes and assumed that no one would be able to tell the difference.

That was a fantastic set of tests of the PARWise though.

The tests show one "possible" answer though it is a long shot.
"back in the day" the Chinese were selling 3W dual core dies as cyan. Basically a green and blue pair.
Of course they showed a dual peak spectrum.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Kind of both...

The tests show one "possible" answer though it is a long shot.
"back in the day" the Chinese were selling 3W dual core dies as cyan. Basically a green and blue pair.
Of course they showed a dual peak spectrum.

That's a really good point. It might not be the bulb manufacturer being sketchy. It's possible that he had good intentions, but was set up for failure by the company that fulfilled his order for the individual diodes.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Yea not sure the above is relevant..there was never.. afaict.. a 660nm diode..
Anyways 2 "official" ones.
TOP is "normal" Blaze (???) w/ 1 505nm cyan?
Bottom is "actinic Blaze puck 2019.

Or is it this one??

No cyan..
Sorry a bit confused here...

Keep in mind the chart is "relative" and the intense blue peak will always suppress the other peaks.

Sorry @oreo54 I've been pretty busy and didn't see all the new messages posted here.

I'm pretty sure mine is the second LED you posted with the two white diodes in the Puck. They started offering a "super blue" option, but mines all the normal pucks and I like those better. I can get a break down on them.

I'll try to post some pics too. They're working so well I've thought of going back 100% LED.....