Perpetually Rising Nitrates

underthereef · Aug 1, 2022

Hi Everyone,

So I've had a new tank running for about 6+ months now. But ever since I initially cycled it using pure ammonia and microbacter start xlm I am having a problem with my nitrates constantly rising. Idk if this is normal for new tanks or if something is going wrong with the system or operation. I'd like to start adding corals and stuff but I don't like how my nitrates keep rising so high. I'd like everyone's advise of what might be causing this or where I can improve.

Here are some facts about the system:

-180 DT with a 40G (est 180G total water volume) sump running fleece roll filter, eshopps s-200 protein skimmer, refugium with 4 inches of ocean direct live sand and xport bioballs on top.
-I have never been able to tune my skimmer properly. It has either been erratic changing levels (not high enough or overflowing) or filling cup with very wet skim. Hardly any tint to it. I've tried to research how to tune skimmers and it seems like my issue could be that I don't have enough bio load yet but then if there are rising nitrates in the water you would think that means that there are enough nutrients in the water so that the skimmer should be working better?
-I was running my return pump at about 800 gph, but have now raised it to about 1100 gph so turning over about every 10-11 minutes. I notice it seems like debree gets blown around forever in my DT without ever actually going into the overflow. I'm also running 2 Nero 5's (one on each end of the tank)

-I have only 4 fish so far: White tail kole tang, 2 relatively small clowns, midas blenny.
-I have a population of copepods I seeded several months back.
-NItrates are currently 20PPM after a large water change. Have been creeping up as high as 40-50 PPM. Doing 30G water change every 4 weeks.
-I've been feeding roughly 1/4 cube of frozen food per day seperated into 2 feedings (San Francisco bay)
-I feed fairly slow with a syringe and the fish eat all the food I put in the tank and still seem hungry. I also feed a small 1 inch square of nori for the tang 3-4 days a week.
- I was feeding a small amount of flakes/pellets a couple times a week but have stopped as of a couple weeks ago.
-I cycled it initially with 1.25 PPM ammonia but somehow my nitrates ended up being around 30-40 PPM.
-I have some brown diatoms but no other algae or anything else.
-Have 3 kessil a360x's but only running on about 5% for 4-6 hours a day.

Is there something else that can be causing or leaching rising nitrates? The live sand? Could it be the lack of a proficiently operating skimmer? Lack of flow? Idk how, but is it possible I am overfeeding? Or is this normal for a new system with no corals yet? I'm just surprised also because I thought with such a big system 4 fish would hardly make a difference.

The other interesting factor is that phosphates have been reading 0 the entire time. So idk where the nitrates are coming from.
I'm using RODI water with Instant Ocean Reef Crystals salt at 35PPT.
Testing with API saltwater master test kit and Salifert as well.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

davidcalgary29 · Aug 1, 2022

I don't think you're feeding enough, to start. I feed most of my tanks three times a day; I have two tanks (one 65g; the other a 73g) with planktivores, and they go through an entire sheet of nori a day.

The only thing that I can tell you is that tank maturity really does matter. I also think that it's a grave mistake to chase numbers in a new tank unless your fish are clearly unhappy; you're only going to make yourself unhappy if you can't achieve what you want. If you need some coral, go with softies and enjoy the colour and movement they bring. They're generally much more fun than SPS, anyway, and much easier to grow. You should also get some lovely macroalgae, like halymenia, which will not only add texture to your tank but help you with nutrient export, as well.

There are many people here who have kept beautiful reef tanks at 100-200 PPM. I'm not one of them, but keep in mind that "high" nitrates are something of a relatavistic concept.

KrisReef · Aug 1, 2022

Pictures of your skimmer
Your sump (with the water level)
And your sandy bio balls section
And the tank.

The description of details were good but I can’t see it

BigDangler · Aug 1, 2022

KrisReef said:
Pictures of your skimmer
Your sump (with the water level)
And your sandy bio balls section
And the tank.

The description of details were good but I can’t see it

And your sandy bio balls section

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sandy balllllllls

KrisReef · Aug 1, 2022

BigDangler said:
And your sandy bio balls section

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sandy balllllllls

That’s shameful

underthereef · Aug 1, 2022

KrisReef said:
Pictures of your skimmer
Your sump (with the water level)
And your sandy bio balls section
And the tank.

The description of details were good but I can’t see it

Pictures are here!

underthereef · Aug 1, 2022

BigDangler said:
And your sandy bio balls section

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sandy balllllllls

Should I change my user name to sandy balls so I can compete with @BigDangler

CookieRdReef · Aug 1, 2022

I would try another nitrate test kit. Unless you have done 0 water changes in 6 months there isn't a normal reason for nitrates to be so high. Ususally high PO4 goes along with high nitrates. The tank sounds like it shoukd be very very low nitrates with so little fish and feedings for that water volume.

underthereef · Aug 2, 2022

davidcalgary29 said:
I don't think you're feeding enough, to start. I feed most of my tanks three times a day; I have two tanks (one 65g; the other a 73g) with planktivores, and they go through an entire sheet of nori a day.

The only thing that I can tell you is that tank maturity really does matter. I also think that it's a grave mistake to chase numbers in a new tank unless your fish are clearly unhappy; you're only going to make yourself unhappy if you can't achieve what you want. If you need some coral, go with softies and enjoy the colour and movement they bring. They're generally much more fun than SPS, anyway, and much easier to grow. You should also get some lovely macroalgae, like halymenia, which will not only add texture to your tank but help you with nutrient export, as well.

There are many people here who have kept beautiful reef tanks at 100-200 PPM. I'm not one of them, but keep in mind that "high" nitrates are something of a relatavistic concept.

Okay I'll start feeding more as that was my feeling too; I wanted to feed more but I just don't know why my nitrates are reading so high. I know it can be bad to chase numbers maybe I'm just rushing trying to feel comfortable putting in some corals. I do eventually want to have a mixed reef with some SPS so I wanted to stay on the lower end of nutrient spectrum. Could it be the opposite affect, where since I don't have thriving corals etc that my nutrients are rising faster even though I don't have many fish?

CookieRdReef said:
I would try another nitrate test kit. Unless you have done 0 water changes in 6 months there isn't a normal reason for nitrates to be so high. Ususally high PO4 goes along with high nitrates. The tank sounds like it shoukd be very very low nitrates with so little fish and feedings for that water volume.

That was my thought too; what could raise nitrates but not really be raising phosphates? Could it be the fish presense and my protein skimmer not operating well be a factor? Or what could potentially cause this? Obviously I could step up the water changes and maybe even start my fuge with Chaeto already but I was just surprised nitrates were going up like that already.

I did test with two test kits (API master saltwater test kit and salifert) but I guess that's also a possibility still as well.

davidcalgary29 · Aug 2, 2022

underthereef said:
Okay I'll start feeding more as that was my feeling too; I wanted to feed more but I just don't know why my nitrates are reading so high. I know it can be bad to chase numbers maybe I'm just rushing trying to feel comfortable putting in some corals. I do eventually want to have a mixed reef with some SPS so I wanted to stay on the lower end of nutrient spectrum. Could it be the opposite affect, where since I don't have thriving corals etc that my nutrients are rising faster even though I don't have many fish?

That was my thought too; what could raise nitrates but not really be raising phosphates? Could it be the fish presense and my protein skimmer not operating well be a factor? Or what could potentially cause this? Obviously I could step up the water changes and maybe even start my fuge with Chaeto already but I was just surprised nitrates were going up like that already.

Our tanks are closed systems; you introduce nitrates through the food that you feed your fish and the waste that they produce, and neither your mechanical (skimmer) nor biological (microbial) export systems are robust enough to utilize the chemical byproducts (including nitrates) of basic cellar function.

Nori is actually a high source of imported nitrates, but the health of your fish is the most important consideration, and I think you should feed more -- not less, of it.

You can get a better skimmer. You can grow chaeto in your sump; you can do weekly 50% water changes with RO/DI water; you can dose Prime or phyto or Microbacter 7. Some, or any combination of these things, will probably bring down your nitrates, but 30 ppm still isn't really high in a new tank.

CookieRdReef · Aug 2, 2022

Corals appreciate nitrate so your numbers should be fine to add some. A fuge and and corals will suck up some nitrates but not much initially. Doing 30g every 2 wks instead of 4 should bring the NO3 down lower.

CookieRdReef · Aug 2, 2022

Your water may be too clean for the skimmer to do much. I have 23 fish in my 180g. Dont be afraid to feed more, the micro and invisible stuff in our tanks are the real secret sauce and they need to eat. Too clean is bad for a newer tank.

KrisReef · Aug 2, 2022

About that skimmer
The water level and top of the bubble column are way too high. I had a skimmer like yours and it took awhile to break in. Adjust the bubble height to about the same height as the bottom of the collection cup and let it do its thing. It will start skimming a little each day, and if you increase your feeding it will kick in sooner.
High nitrates will continue for awhile but eventually the biological filter will also kick in and the tank will eat nitrates. Takes awhile to get there but it will. Be patient.
I think the mods will change your username if you ask them, but the one you have is okay really.

Viking_Reefing · Aug 2, 2022

With zero phosphates the breakdown of nitrates won’t be very efficient. I would look at raising those.
Also, throw in some macro algae in that refugium. If you have the fuge for nutrient export the current setup won’t do much.

underthereef · Aug 2, 2022

Thank you guys for all your help!

I will be implementing your recommendations and be more patient letting my tank mature while adding some beginner corals soon also. I think my thought process on the tank biology was a little backward as far as mature system vs newer system needs. But now reading your guys advice makes me realize that. Lol.

underthereef · Aug 2, 2022

Viking_Reefing said:
With zero phosphates the breakdown of nitrates won’t be very efficient. I would look at raising those.
Also, throw in some macro algae in that refugium. If you have the fuge for nutrient export the current setup won’t do much.

How far along would you guys recommend to start running chaeto in my refugium? Is that more of a down the road tool to use if I need it after my tank is more established and skimmer is actively skimming more? Or is that something you can start running sooner and be beneficial?

What's a good way to just slightly add a low level of phosphates?

CookieRdReef · Aug 2, 2022

underthereef said:
How far along would you guys recommend to start running chaeto in my refugium? Is that more of a down the road tool to use if I need it after my tank is more established and skimmer is actively skimming more? Or is that something you can start running sooner and be beneficial?

What's a good way to just slightly add a low level of phosphates?

I added neophos by brightwell to about .05 ppm when my tank was new. Adding cheato will give pods some habitat and can boost ph if you run your light at night for reverse photo period.