PH help please

[lutmfurl]

Hi, I am in my first year of fish keeping and CRYING OUT FOR HELP!!!!!!! I have a Red Sea Max 130D full details below kept as a mixed hard and soft coral tank with fish and inverts.

I regularly attend to my water with changes every fortnight. I am currently experiencing issues trying to maintain my PH. I have tried using many different buffers but still see it drop 0.3 every day.

Parameters

Temp 25.3 to 25.6
Salinity 1.025
Alk 11
Calcium 415 but normally around 450
Mag 1220 but normally around 1330
Nitrates 20 - 40
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
PH 8.0

I have tried buffering up using seachem reef buffer, aquavito 8.4, aquavito balance. Can buffer the system up to 8.25 at 9pm and by 9pm the next day it has dropped back to 7.95. Having to buffer every day but is causing massive swings through the day. Also starting to have high all issues as this week after trying to buffer up my alk got to 14. I use my lfs ro water and mix my own salt using aquavit salinity. I dose 10ml seachem fusion 1+2 daily which normally maintains my calcium, mag and alk.

Have tried upping lights to 10 and 12 hours to see if it helps maintain PH and also tried adding an air pump to the back compartment to try and raise oxygen.
Tank details

RSM 130D
Stevie T (InTank) Media rack
Purigen and either chemi-pure elite or dupla siliphos
9002 Tunze skimmer
TMC PH Controller
Ehime flow pump
Standard lights about 8 month old bulbs with a pair of cheap blue led for evenings after daylights

Corals
toadstool
daisy coral
few zoas
3 tourch heads
2 sun corals
trackie
lobo
2 medium hammerheads
few kenya trees
mushroom

Stock
yellow eyed tang
pair of blacker ice clowns
mystery wrasse
orange tail damsel
sand sifting starfish
6 sand sifting snails (narcissus or something)
1 mexican turbo snail
8 hermit crabs
pompom crab
emerald crab
electric flame scallop
8 trocus snails

Feeding
mysis pe
brineshrimp and garlic
zoo and phyto
aquavito fuel
formula 2 and brine shrimp flake
Dupla eeze calanus finmarchicus coral food

Example last night. PH at 8.1 early evening. Started to drop as expected when lights went off but tried to drip the aquavito balance in over a few hours to get it up to 8.25 and maintain it till i went to bed. Today when i got home from work about 18 hours later its back to 7.95 after 8 hours light. and won't raise much more (maybe 8.05 by tonight). This is a daily theme.

Any advice you can offer would be gratefully received.

 

[diablomaster9045]

That PH drop is normal. Every tank I know has some form of ph drop at night time.

Stop using a buffer to chase PH. This will cause more problems than it is worth.

Some things you can do to help ease the PH change:

1. Add some form of a refugium to the tank and run it on an opposite cycle of your main tank lighting.
2. Add a Co2 scrubber to your skimmer air intake. How to make a Co2 scubber: JeF4y's CO2 Scrubber - Increase your pH! - Atlanta Reef Club Forums
3. Open your windows when it is nice out to get the stale air out of your house.

 

[LetItReef]

mine does drop too and seems the opening the windows helped.

 

[Pete polyp]

Your ph is fine. If it gets below 7.5 or above 8.6 then you should be concerned.

 

[fishroomlady]

I never test ph. Not sayin' that's the correct thing to do but the big 3 are the most important - alk, calcium, and magnesium

 

[lutmfurl]

That PH drop is normal. Every tank I know has some form of ph drop at night time.

Stop using a buffer to chase PH. This will cause more problems than it is worth.

Some things you can do to help ease the PH change:

1. Add some form of a refugium to the tank and run it on an opposite cycle of your main tank lighting.
2. Add a Co2 scrubber to your skimmer air intake. How to make a Co2 scubber: JeF4y's CO2 Scrubber - Increase your pH! - Atlanta Reef Club Forums
3. Open your windows when it is nice out to get the stale air out of your house.

Many thanks for the advice. I understand that ph drops at night but even with what i consider normal buffering it drops 0.3 overnight but does not come back up. Having to use 20ml of balance every night plus fusion to keep it around 8.0. Have tried leaving it but if untouched for a couple of days it rapidly drops toward 7.5

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

Ide say u need to better look at how alk and calcium correlate within the system, keeping these and magnesium at proper levels really don't worry about pH unless it gets under 7.6 or. Over 8.6....and if you are using aragonite it will dissolve when dangerous. Low levels of. Ph are. Hit and buff water back up. To about 7.8 anyways!

 

[lutmfurl]

I never test ph. Not sayin' that's the correct thing to do but the big 3 are the most important - alk, calcium, and magnesium

I wasn't always to worried but lost £200 of fish at xmas due to ph crash so picked up a tic ph controller cheap to keep an eye on it. Still test occasionally but mainly like you say, alk, mag and calcium.

 

[lutmfurl]

Ide say u need to better look at how alk and calcium correlate within the system, keeping these and magnesium at proper levels really don't worry about pH unless it gets under 7.6 or. Over 8.6....and if you are using aragonite it will dissolve when dangerous. Low levels of. Ph are. Hit and buff water back up. To about 7.8 anyways!

Many thanks for reply. What is considered proper levels on here. The reason for concern has been due to my tang repeatedly getting velvet and only parameter that seems out or swinging is ph.

 

[diablomaster9045]

Many thanks for the advice. I understand that ph drops at night but even with what i consider normal buffering it drops 0.3 overnight but does not come back up. Having to use 20ml of balance every night plus fusion to keep it around 8.0. Have tried leaving it but if untouched for a couple of days it rapidly drops toward 7.5

I strongly recommend making a Co2 scrubber for your skimmer. You can get the Soda Lime at BRS for $45 for a 9 lb jug.

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

Refer to these for info

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry

Between the three these should help with any Cal alk mag questions!

 

[UK_Pete]

Buffer is alk. Thats quite important to know and Randy is always saying don't use buffer to control pH. If you have your alk at a particular number and you add 'buffer', that will raise your alk, because adding buffer is adding alk. Buffer is just another word for alk (IE alkalinity).

Your pH is set for a particular alk by CO2. IE most aquarists have a figure in mind for the alk they want to have, so its not 'variable'. You have to stick at the level of buffer / alk that you want for your corals.To change the pH of your tank, therefore, you have to change its CO2 level. Although changing alk will slightly change pH, its a small change, and not very useful. So for all intents and purposes don't think of any connection between pH and alk.

Whats happening when your pH drops at night is that your CO2 levels are rising (as I think you know). The usual reason is that algae stop using CO2 when the light turns off. Algae need light to convert CO2 to more algae (IE grow), so when the light turns off the growth stops, the CO2 rises and so the pH drops. CO2 in your tank comes from things like fish and bacteria, who continue to release CO2 even when the lights are off.

How to get rid of the CO2? The obvious one is limewater, which is calcium hydroxide, and that binds the CO2 and converts it to calcium carbonate. But you would need to drip it slowly all night to get an even effect with no spikes in pH, and your calcium and alk will rise (but that might not be a problem).

Another way is to aerate the water better, with low CO2 air. The low CO2 air might come from outdoors via a tube from your skimmer intake to the outdoors, or you can use a CO2 scrubber as someone already said, to strip the CO2 from the air going to the skimmer. How well this works depends on the skimmer you have, a bigger skimmer with faster tank water flow and more air flow will have a stronger effect. With a scrubber you need to replace the media from time to time, so if outdoor air works for you then its probably easier.

Another way is to have algae growing on a 'reverse cycle'. So when the tank lights are off, a light over your sump is on. That way, as long as you have algae in the sump, there will always be growing, lit algae to remove CO2 from the water.

FWIW when I changed my tank to use outside air for the skimmer pH went from 7.9 to about 8.4, but I seem to be quite lucky as most people don't see such a large effect. But its very easy to try.

 

[fishroomlady]

I'll defer to the experts on this thread. I have to think that if all of your other parameters are in check (salinity, temperature, alk, mag, calcium) and you have a sufficient skimmer, then something else caused the demise of the fish. Velvet is a disease that fish get and it's usually brought into a tank from adding a new fish that is infected. At least that's my understanding of velvet - that's how my fish got wiped out in a crash a few years back - it was caught from two new fish I added (without quarantining of course). Is there anything else going on in your tank that could have caused the fish to die? Did you have a drop in 02? a new addition that perhaps had something? I'm also wondering if that by adding buffers to get ph in line if that didn't cause an imbalance of some sort.

Again, many more experts here. It sounds like aerating the water in some way probably would help. I'm so sorry you lost all those fish, that's hard I know

 

[Pete polyp]

If it's dropping to around 7.5 I would think it's a co2 issue. Getting fresh air into the room would help. You can always run the skimmer intake out a window to introduce fresh air. Using limewater in your topoff will raise the pH. It will also add calcium and alkalinity into the tank.

 

[lutmfurl]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Just reading through them all

 

[UK_Pete]

I never heard of low pH killing fish at slightly low levels, but something occurred to me, very high CO2 levels will maybe stress fish and potentially kill them, but I don't know what level of CO2 is dangerous. But since pH is a indicator for CO2 in most tanks that have normal alk levels, you might notice low pH when fish die. Low oxygen might also be associated with low pH too, under certain circumstances, what I am thinking is if you have a bacterial bloom, your oxygen demand for the tank will go right up (that means oxygen levels drop) and that can kill fish. Also CO2 levels will rise at such a time, and pH will drop. But the pH is probably not the thing that killed the fish if this event did happen, it would be the low oxygen or high CO2. I don't really know much at all about fish respiration requirements so can't really speculate other than that.

What could cause a bacterial bloom? Suddenly adding lots of vodka, vinegar, sugar, or similar (like no pox4 if thats what its called, can't remember). Something dying like a large fish etc. Some event that stirred up an old sand bed.

Any of these would be made worse by not having much air exchange. A close fitting lid on the tank, or little surface movement, too small a skimmer etc. Tanks need lots of air to get rid of CO2 and add oxygen.

 

[glb]

I agree with everyone that some ph fluctuation is fine. Mine stays at 7.8 due to high co2 in my house. The wild fluctuations caused by adding buffers to keep it stable is probably more harmful in the long run. My ph often fluctuates .3-.4 depending on the time of day and the lights being on or off. Watch your alk, ca and mg balance. If everything else looks good, I wouldn't tinker with things too much for ph (within reason). Good luck!!

 

[lutmfurl]

more great advice thanks. just looking at making the soda lime reactor bottle. Anyone in the uk have experience of buying the soda lime? only found one place and its £40 for 9kg

 

[lutmfurl]

also could someone confirm what is considered acceptable and ideal parameters for water (ph, alk, salt, ca, mg, nitrite, nitrate, salinity)

Thanks in advance

 

[glb]

Courtesy of Chris Brightwell. This is for nanos but it's a good guide IMO.