Ph swings

@jsker or the water/ gas ratio in the air your questioning.

I'm not sure if you are asking me a question, but the humidity of the air has no impact on CO2 levels, and so won't impact pH except via possible changes in evaporation rates if you dose something (such as limewater in an ATO) that is based on evaporation. :)
 
I'm not sure if you are asking me a question, but the humidity of the air has no impact on CO2 levels, and so won't impact pH except via possible changes in evaporation rates if you dose something (such as limewater in an ATO) that is based on evaporation. :)
thank you, the question was poorly worded for both. Wondering what his observation was. And what your thoughts were.
Thanks

Do you think his swing is out of the norm or bad?
 
I would assume this type of ph swing would be common in a sumpless system, but not tested nor monitored.
 
Assuming the air in the room is not changing its CO2 content over time, the size of the pH swing depends on the photosynthesis in the tank (more means a bigger swing) and the aeration (perfect aeration means no swing).

Here's my discussion of the pH swing:

The Daily pH Swing

One of the first things that aquarists who measure pH notice is that the pH changes from day to night in coral reef aquaria. This diurnal (daily) change in pH in reef aquaria occurs because of the biological processes of photosynthesis and respiration. Photosynthesis is the process whereby organisms convert carbon dioxide and water into carbohydrate and oxygen. So there is a net consumption of carbon dioxide during the day. This causes many aquaria to become deficient in CO2 during the day, raising their pH.

Likewise, all organisms also carry out the process of respiration, which converts carbohydrates back into energy. In the net sense, it is the opposite of photosynthesis, producing carbon dioxide and reducing pH. This process is happening continuously in reef aquaria, but is most evident at night when photosynthesis is not pushing pH upward.

The net effect of these processes is that pH rises during the day and drops at night in most reef aquaria. This change varies from less than a tenth of a pH unit, to more than 0.5 pH units in typical aquaria. Complete aeration of the aquarium’s water will entirely prevent this diurnal pH swing, by driving out any excess carbon dioxide or absorbing carbon dioxide when deficient (assuming the carbon dioxide levels in the home air are steady). In practice, equilibration of carbon dioxide by aeration is difficult, and this goal is not often attained. Consequently, the pH does change between day and night.

Higher alkalinity implies more bicarbonate and carbonate in the water, and together these serve to buffer the water against pH changes (that is, they resist the change in pH as additional acids or bases are added). So the higher the alkalinity, the lower the diurnal pH swing. Also, the higher the pH, the more effective is the buffering provided by bicarbonate and carbonate in seawater (up to about pH 9), so the higher the average pH, the smaller the diurnal swing. Additional chemicals in the water also help to reduce the pH swing; borate, for example, buffers against pH changes.

With that all said, however, I do not believe that the actual change in pH each day is particularly important. I won’t go into the reasoning behind this claim here, other than stating that it is my opinion, based on my understanding of how most organisms control their internal pH, but I do not believe that diurnal pH changes that stay within the range of pH 7.8 to 8.5 are particularly stressful to most reef organisms. That is, these changes are no more stressful than being at the same pH all day. A constant pH of 7.9 may be worse for many organisms than a pH that varies from 8.0 to 8.5 each day. Of course, if the diurnal swing takes the pH outside of this range, i.e., below 7.8 or above 8.5, then certain processes take place that should be corrected, as detailed below.
 
@Randy Holmes-Farley Thank you. I was pretty sure I had that right.
In sumpless and/or skimmerless I have and do recommend to folks the hob fuge that runs on an air pump as the hob fuge is on the same light cycle, based on your articles.
 
I'm having the same problem. I added a co2 scrubber the night of 9/21. It seem to keep my pH up a little higher at night but also raised it more during the day so my swing the same. I'm going to try to just run my skimmer at night with the co2 scrubber to see if that helps the swing.

IMG_1474734140.295439.jpg
 
I'm having the same problem. I added a co2 scrubber the night of 9/21. It seem to keep my pH up a little higher at night but also raised it more during the day so my swing the same. I'm going to try to just run my skimmer at night with the co2 scrubber to see if that helps the swing.

IMG_1474734140.295439.jpg
im not the ph expert but it think most would kill for those numbers.:)
 
@Randy Holmes-Farley wrote a great article/ and posted about PH and how to manage PH

I'm not sure if you are asking me a question, but the humidity of the air has no impact on CO2 levels, and so won't impact pH except via possible changes in evaporation rates if you dose something (such as limewater in an ATO) that is based on evaporation. :)

I was not ask a question:), I was generalizing about my experience here in Central Florida where we keep the house closed up for 355 days. My PH would be about 7.8 on a good day. After reading on different threads I decided to drill and run a air line to bring in air from outside.

PH 9-23-16 .PNG


My PH now runs as I posted earlier, yes I do have swings at night. I do have a light on my sump the turns on at 10 pm to 8 am. I have also noticed in the winter that my PH does run a tad bit higher with less of a swing at night, I am guessing theorizing this not fact. My observation with lower humidities and temperatures than we experience here in the fall/winter/spring average less than the 95 degree heat and heat indexes less than 100 to 105 with humidity over 50% during the day and humidity 70+ % at night with temperatures averaging 80 to 85 degree. I do not dose Kalwasser any more. During the day and eveing I do dose component 2+ as part of the balling method at 7:30 am and 9 Pm. Ro/DI is the only thing in my ATO now:)

Here is some one making a DIY scrubber to help with PH issues

co2-1-jpg.383050


co2-2-jpg.383051


co2-3-jpg.383052


co2-4-jpg.383053

Is it effective? Yes I think so.

Look at my graph below - it is from the last three days - starting 12:00 5/8 and ending 16:15 today. The first day I run the system without my CO2 scrubber - only with reversed light (22:00 - 10:00) in my refugium (only red and some blue wavelengths) Around 10:00 the 6/8 I connected my CO2 scrubber - the pH was driven up to over 8:45. I let the scrubber be connected to around 7:00 the 7/8, It was disconnected till around 22:00 the 7/8. Reconnected at that time - and see what’s happen -> the pH stabilized at 8.35. This indicate that it is lesser than 200 ppm CO2 in the air connected to the skimmer and the scrubber. There is probably some interference from my refugium but not so much (yet)

Seven o´clock I disconnected the scrubber and have not connected it again.

To work well – there must be some water in the media. From start – there is 20 % water in the media but after 2 – 3 weeks I have to put some water over the media every day to have it effective for a prolonged time. I will do some test for how long you can run the media without change it out to new media

screen-shot-08-08-16-at-04-35-pm-jpg.383066


In summary my PH issue are caused by high CO2 levels in my home, to rectify this I simply drilled a hole in the wall run a air line outside and my issue of low PH was fixed. That was my suggestion nothing else:)

Side note: I now use the kalwasser when making corn tortilla. Make them lighter;)
 
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How much benefit in growth is 8.0 vs 8.3?


I'm not sure I can give any sort of quantitative answer for a given pH shift. Some corals have shown an ability to adapt and make up for the fact that calcification is harder at lower pH. Higher alk may also offset the low pH problems.
 
I'm not sure I can give any sort of quantitative answer for a given pH shift. Some corals have shown an ability to adapt and make up for the fact that calcification is harder at lower pH. Higher alk may also offset the low pH problems.

Last night I got upset with some others growth shots so I decided to set up my CO2 scrubber again. I took it off line because it's air flow was insufficient for my larger skimmer. So I made a few modifications and I think it's working ok, (skimmer and scrubber) just look at the PH difference!
24dfc09c0e6e203235bc9fc2820495c2.jpg


Low last night was 8.00, not 7.75!!!

Now it's starting to rise.

Here is the modification I made to the BRS air filter. Driller out the fitting so that a much larger diameter hose can be used. I'm even considering using two. Hopefully this is the missing link for my SPS growth.
8c7323aca372f87fc3537c44dfe907df.jpg
 
So! I got outside air hooked up to my skimmer yesterday and the skimmer appears to be skimming just fine. pH is up a tad this morning from its 7 am 10 day average of 7.76 to 7.84. Looks promising. The low usually takes place at 8:30 am, fingers crossed that I don't see the 7.68 average. Tap, tap, tap......
 
So! I got outside air hooked up to my skimmer yesterday and the skimmer appears to be skimming just fine. pH is up a tad this morning from its 7 am 10 day average of 7.76 to 7.84. Looks promising. The low usually takes place at 8:30 am, fingers crossed that I don't see the 7.68 average. Tap, tap, tap......

What diameter line did you use? If too narrow the long run will increase resistance and reduce air intake, right?
 
What diameter line did you use? If too narrow the long run will increase resistance and reduce air intake, right?
You would think so but I used 3/8ths, it fit perfectly and doesn't seem to have affected the skimmers performance at all. PH has been hovering in the 7.8 range for a couple of hours now and all seems well!
 
You would think so but I used 3/8ths, it fit perfectly and doesn't seem to have affected the skimmers performance at all. PH has been hovering in the 7.8 range for a couple of hours now and all seems well!

That's great. I think it's those really low dips in pH that are the real detriment. Even if I can not increase my peak pH, just keeping it from 7.75 will have a huge impact.
 
I'm sure there are a multitude of variables that can affect the gains from providing fresh air but the difference with a window open vs not for my setup is .2-.3 across the board. At the peak of the hot season here this summer, (windows hadnt been opened in weeks if not months) I was seeing a low of 7.7x and a high of around 7.9x (results from Reef Angel's probe). I closed the room off (my home office) and opened the window one night and it jumped to 8.0x at the low 8.3x on the high side. I definitely need to install a line because it is too cold during the winter to leave a window open as well but I've been hesitant to break out the drill until I actually have time to test a few different sizes for the supply line. Not a huge distance but I need to run at least seven feet; I'd be surprised if 3/8" was large enough to not influence the efficiency of the skimmer at that distance but I dont have any facts either.
 

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