Phosphate Reduction (help)

[HeinritzReef]

We have been dosing lanthanum chloride (quantum phosphate) for about one week... we have been dosing much less than the recommended dose for our size system because we didn’t want to shock the system.

I thought we would see some kind of reduction but nothing noticeable on our Hanna checker.

Phosphate is VERY high. ICP testing put it at 2.79ppm, as of now we still can not get a reading below the UL Hanna Phosphate checker, maxes out at 2.5ppm.

Do we up our dosage? Try something else, we have 6 tangs and lots of fish so obviously my concern is for there safety. But our corals are struggling, due to these high levels and we need to get them down. I also have nopox on hand...

System- 300G display, 75G sump, 40G frag
Alk 8.2
Calcium 460
Magnesium 1400
Nitrate ~60 (give or take)
~30 fish

Our skimmer & algae scrubber are undersized for system. I know we need to make some upgrades now but not sure which to upgrade first.

 

[Hudsonvalleyreefguy]

Iv used GFO in a reactor and that dropped phos down substantially, however I’m just letting my refugium do the work at this point.

 

[dank reefer]

Are you wanting to bring it down due to issues in your tank?

 

[Dave Garrett]

I would dose the whole amount on the instruction to bring down your phosphates to 1/2 of what they are ...all at one time... Wait a day or 2 and bring them down another half of what they are...When you reach your target area slow down.... If your system has had these high levels more then likely your rock and sand will leach phosphates back into your water... After you get it down under .5 or .6 you may want to try GFO as others have stated...

 

[Super Fly]

Iv used GFO in a reactor and that dropped phos down substantially,

This
GFO reactor will provide consistent PO4 control once u've learned how much GFO ur tank needs to maintain desired level. Somtimes for quick reduction, I've used Phosphate RX w great results. However whatever u do, DO NOT LOWER YOUR PHOSPHATES MORE THAN .5ppm IN A 24-HOUR PERIOD.

 

[HeinritzReef]

This
GFO reactor will provide consistent PO4 control once u've learned how much GFO ur tank needs to maintain desired level. Somtimes for quick reduction, I've used Phosphate RX w great results. However whatever u do, DO NOT LOWER YOUR PHOSPHATES MORE THAN .5ppm IN A 24-HOUR PERIOD.

It’s very difficult to gauge... since we cannot get an accurate reading because it’s so high. Someone else on this thread said to bring it down in half, but that would be probably around 1.5ppm.

 

[HeinritzReef]

I would dose the whole amount on the instruction to bring down your phosphates to 1/2 of what they are ...all at one time... Wait a day or 2 and bring them down another half of what they are...When you reach your target area slow down.... If your system has had these high levels more then likely your rock and sand will leach phosphates back into your water... After you get it down under .5 or .6 you may want to try GFO as others have stated...

They have been high like this for awhile...
some of the rock came out of a Fowlr system... that had extremely high phosphate probably about 7-8ppm.
We bleached it and recured for 12 weeks it my guess is some of the phosphate is leaching out of that rock?!?

 

[HeinritzReef]

Are you wanting to bring it down due to issues in your tank?

We do not have any algae issues... which is surprising since conditions are right.

Corals specifically euphyllia are receding along the branches, and not growing new tissue. When a coral gets injured they don’t seem to be able to heal. But the paly & zoas... love it. But I really love euphyllia... and really I think our phosphates should really be much lower.

 

[Dave Garrett]

If you want a more in depth discussion on this subject... Google Melevreef and watch his video on using Phosphate RX

 

[Super Fly]

It’s very difficult to gauge... since we cannot get an accurate reading because it’s so high. Someone else on this thread said to bring it down in half, but that would be probably around 1.5ppm.

reducing PO4 too quickly may result in adverse coral reaction. U can also reduce feeding meanwhile to help slow down PO4

 

[Fishnchips]

I've used lanthanum effectively and I would suggest increasing the dosage until you start seeing a small reduction in phosphates. Then, slowly increase the dose but do not exceed the recommended dosage. I agree with superfly that you don't want to drop phosphate too fast but you should be using enough to at least start seeing some effect.

Ive also used NoPOX and it works too. I start with half the recommended dose and then slowly increase until I'm seeing a reduction in phosphate. But you need to choose one method and stick with it.

And of course as you mentioned, until you upgrade your equipment you are going to have to keep removing phosphate. I would upgrade your skimmer first and perhaps feed less.

If you can't solve the cause of the problem you might not be ready to keep the kind of corals that cant tolerate high phosphate.

Good luck. And update what happens.

 

[Slawman]

I have had a few phosphate battles. I suggest looking to export as much as possible and look for the sources. Getting an excellent skimmer and determining if your rock is leaching would be where I would start based on the information you have put here. I have never used a refugium to reduce PO4.

Take a bit of the rock out and put it in a container with the water you are using. Test for PO4 before and after it has been soaking for a while to tell you if you have a source in the rocks.

If it is the rocks and it could very well be then you will not be able to properly control levels until you get rid of it.

Do you use GAC? This can leech Phosphates. How much are you feeding?

My preferred approach has always been regular water changes, aggressive skimming with a good skimmer, Kalk and moderate feeding to get the levels to the top of low range (after you have nailed any other sources). I would only consider Lanth if I was pushing to extreme low levels and even then I don't like using it because I don't like putting anything else in the tank water. When I did use it I found it very hard to get suitability long term ie. over a year or two. I have also used Biopellets and Vodka dosing with varying degrees of success but again only to get to ultra low levels for SPS. Much easier long term to go with consistent application of the basics in my view.

 

[Vamsi]

@HeinritzReef. How did you determine the dose for the lanthanum chloride? I am also currently battling high phosphates in my 180 gallon reef and I lost 50% of my corals. That being said, right now I am using a combination of Phosphate RX and BRS high capacity GFO to bring it down. My phosphates were at 2.xx, two days ago I tested it .31, it came down all the way to .21 and I got excited and relaxed on the dosing and it went back up.

That being said I have used http://larryl.emailplus.org/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html and it gives you precise dosing based on different dosing additives. I used the calculator for your tank and your current ICP value is 2.79 and ideally people target between 0.03 to <=0.1. It says
Two Little Fishies PhosBan®-L
IMPORTANT: First dilute PhosBan®-L by mixing 100ml of PhosBan®-L with 200ml of reverse osmosis or deionized water
PhosBan®-L dose: 207.0 ml of diluted solution
50% of recommended dose: 103.5 ml of diluted solution
5 ml of the diluted PhosBan®-L in 20 gallons of water will reduce phosphates by 1.0 ppm

I have personally used phosphate RX and I have started dosing 1/4 the recommended dosage every day to bring it down and I did see positive response from my corals. That being said once I have stable levels I may have to figure out the right dosage for BRS GFO high capacity and or drip lanthanum chloride. My reef is about 2 years old and I wonder if the rocks are leeching back the phosphate or if it is from the sandbed. Please be careful when you are trying to get the levels down, you do not want to end up shocking the corals.

It would be nice if BRS had a calculator that showed how much GFO to use to bring the level from x to y. Hope someone with more knowledge can chime in on this.

I have also started vinegar dosing for my high nitrates, its been about 3 weeks or so and I am dosing 20 ml every day and I see some dent in the Nitrates level. I did read that the phosphates will take some time to come down and all I can do is wait and try to mitigate the rise in phosphates using Phosphate Rx or Lanthanum chloride.

The other things to check is Seachem Phosguard, but there is some concern of Aluminium Oxide, but people did mention that they have not seen any ill effects on their corals or fish.

Another option is to use https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-biopellets.html.

These is what I have researched so far. I hope this helps and if others can chime that would be great.

Good luck!!
Vamsi.

 

[HeinritzReef]

@HeinritzReef. How did you determine the dose for the lanthanum chloride? I am also currently battling high phosphates in my 180 gallon reef and I lost 50% of my corals. That being said, right now I am using a combination of Phosphate RX and BRS high capacity GFO to bring it down. My phosphates were at 2.xx, two days ago I tested it .31, it came down all the way to .21 and I got excited and relaxed on the dosing and it went back up.

That being said I have used http://larryl.emailplus.org/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html and it gives you precise dosing based on different dosing additives. I used the calculator for your tank and your current ICP value is 2.79 and ideally people target between 0.03 to <=0.1. It says
Two Little Fishies PhosBan®-L
IMPORTANT: First dilute PhosBan®-L by mixing 100ml of PhosBan®-L with 200ml of reverse osmosis or deionized water
PhosBan®-L dose: 207.0 ml of diluted solution
50% of recommended dose: 103.5 ml of diluted solution
5 ml of the diluted PhosBan®-L in 20 gallons of water will reduce phosphates by 1.0 ppm

I have personally used phosphate RX and I have started dosing 1/4 the recommended dosage every day to bring it down and I did see positive response from my corals. That being said once I have stable levels I may have to figure out the right dosage for BRS GFO high capacity and or drip lanthanum chloride. My reef is about 2 years old and I wonder if the rocks are leeching back the phosphate or if it is from the sandbed. Please be careful when you are trying to get the levels down, you do not want to end up shocking the corals.

It would be nice if BRS had a calculator that showed how much GFO to use to bring the level from x to y. Hope someone with more knowledge can chime in on this.

I have also started vinegar dosing for my high nitrates, its been about 3 weeks or so and I am dosing 20 ml every day and I see some dent in the Nitrates level. I did read that the phosphates will take some time to come down and all I can do is wait and try to mitigate the rise in phosphates using Phosphate Rx or Lanthanum chloride.

The other things to check is Seachem Phosguard, but there is some concern of Aluminium Oxide, but people did mention that they have not seen any ill effects on their corals or fish.

Another option is to use https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-biopellets.html.

These is what I have researched so far. I hope this helps and if others can chime that would be great.

Good luck!!
Vamsi.

I used the bottles instructions... cut in half.
I didn’t want to stress out the system... but maybe I need to go to the low end of the full dose.

Our algae scrubber did a good job in our 120... but it’s just not big enough for this system to make a dent.... and we feed a good amount.

Sorry for your coral loss... luckily we haven’t lost too much yet. We did have a major polyp bailout of our hammer colony which sucks but one of the heads has about 8 new babies, so hopefully once we stabilize it will grow back.

Quantum Phosphate DOSING:
0.03-0.25ppm = 0.1-1.0ml per day/100l/26G
0.25-1.0ppm = 0.5-2.5ml per day/100l/26G
1.0-5.0ppm = 1.0-5.0ml per day/100l/26G
5.0-10ppm = 5.0-10.0ml per day/100l/26G
10 ppm = 10.0ml per day/100l/26G

 

[HeinritzReef]

I have had a few phosphate battles. I suggest looking to export as much as possible and look for the sources. Getting an excellent skimmer and determining if your rock is leaching would be where I would start based on the information you have put here. I have never used a refugium to reduce PO4.

Take a bit of the rock out and put it in a container with the water you are using. Test for PO4 before and after it has been soaking for a while to tell you if you have a source in the rocks.

If it is the rocks and it could very well be then you will not be able to properly control levels until you get rid of it.

Do you use GAC? This can leech Phosphates. How much are you feeding?

My preferred approach has always been regular water changes, aggressive skimming with a good skimmer, Kalk and moderate feeding to get the levels to the top of low range (after you have nailed any other sources). I would only consider Lanth if I was pushing to extreme low levels and even then I don't like using it because I don't like putting anything else in the tank water. When I did use it I found it very hard to get suitability long term ie. over a year or two. I have also used Biopellets and Vodka dosing with varying degrees of success but again only to get to ultra low levels for SPS. Much easier long term to go with consistent application of the basics in my view.

Hmmmm...

Granulated Activated Charcoal (GAC)? We do use that and just started using it again recently... I have never heard of this leeching phosphates. I wonder?

We feed a lot... like 2x a day (nori, frozen, occasionally pellets). We have 29 fish, 6 are large tangs. The Blonde Naso is probably over 10” now. I’m with you I definitely prefer a more natural approach. Water changes are just no longer very cost effective for nutrient reduction, I think the skimmer is the item we need to upgrade. Our Reef Octopus is a workhorse but just can’t keep up it seems.

 

[Slawman]

Hmmmm...

Granulated Activated Charcoal (GAC)? We do use that and just started using it again recently... I have never heard of this leeching phosphates. I wonder?

We feed a lot... like 2x a day (nori, frozen, occasionally pellets). We have 29 fish, 6 are large tangs. The Blonde Naso is probably over 10” now. I’m with you I definitely prefer a more natural approach. Water changes are just no longer very cost effective for nutrient reduction, I think the skimmer is the item we need to upgrade. Our Reef Octopus is a workhorse but just can’t keep up it seems.

GAC can leach PO4 but very unlikely to be the main source, manufactures don't give enough info to tell you need to test it. I would hazard a guess that food and a second runner up rock may be your challenges from a source point of view. Skimming and water changes as export are key in my experience otherwise you are just pumping chemicals into he system to compensate from uncontrolled inputs. The Phosban suggestion above works but be very careful not to drop the PO4 too fast if you do this or you will have bigger issues and again not a long term solution from my personal perspective.

If you don't have any Anthias (or other fish than must be fed constantly) I would make some changes to your feeding routine, feed sparingly and in small quantities making sure it all gets eaten before it disappears into the system. Get a skimmer and work out how to do some decent regular water changes )

 

[clm65]

Phosphate is VERY high. ICP testing put it at 2.79ppm, as of now we still can not get a reading below the UL Hanna Phosphate checker, maxes out at 2.5ppm.

First thing is to make sure you can really monitor your progress and know where you are at. Do you really have the UL version of the Hanna phosphate checker? If so, it maxes out at 200 ppb (emphasis on the "b"). That is 0.2 ppm. If you actually have the regular Hanna phosphate checker, it does go to 2.5 ppm. [confession, I originally bought the UL version, and then had to buy the regular version when I found my phosphates at 2.5 ppm. So you won't be alone if you did this too].

Given the size of your tank (and I'm assuming a proportionate amount of rock), your current phosphate levels, and the history of the rock, this is likely going to be a long process to get your phosphate levels low and steady. The rocks are going to keep leaching phosphate out as you lower the levels in your water. For this reason, I think the best (least expensive) method is going to be dosing LC until you get much lower steady numbers, and then transition to GFO or one of the other granular products. The granular products are relatively expensive, and will get exhausted pretty quickly with your current high PO4 numbers.

 

[HeinritzReef]

First thing is to make sure you can really monitor your progress and know where you are at. Do you really have the UL version of the Hanna phosphate checker? If so, it maxes out at 200 ppb (emphasis on the "b"). That is 0.2 ppm. If you actually have the regular Hanna phosphate checker, it does go to 2.5 ppm. [confession, I originally bought the UL version, and then had to buy the regular version when I found my phosphates at 2.5 ppm. So you won't be alone if you did this too].

Given the size of your tank (and I'm assuming a proportionate amount of rock), your current phosphate levels, and the history of the rock, this is likely going to be a long process to get your phosphate levels low and steady. The rocks are going to keep leaching phosphate out as you lower the levels in your water. For this reason, I think the best (least expensive) method is going to be dosing LC until you get much lower steady numbers, and then transition to GFO or one of the other granular products. The granular products are relatively expensive, and will get exhausted pretty quickly with your current high PO4 numbers.

Thanks, I have a GFO reactor but never really noticed a difference when its ran versus not...
It’s quite possible the the LC is removing phosphate and then the rock is leaching more out? We have the Hanna Checker that maxes out at 2.5ppm, the ICP text said 2.79ppm so we are definitely high. I thought after a week of dosing we would have come down a little bit but my guess is we’re just not dosing enough or more phosphate is leaching as we go.

 

[HeinritzReef]

GAC can leach PO4 but very unlikely to be the main source, manufactures don't give enough info to tell you need to test it. I would hazard a guess that food and a second runner up rock may be your challenges from a source point of view. Skimming and water changes as export are key in my experience otherwise you are just pumping chemicals into he system to compensate from uncontrolled inputs. The Phosban suggestion above works but be very careful not to drop the PO4 too fast if you do this or you will have bigger issues and again not a long term solution from my personal perspective.

If you don't have any Anthias (or other fish than must be fed constantly) I would make some changes to your feeding routine, feed sparingly and in small quantities making sure it all gets eaten before it disappears into the system. Get a skimmer and work out how to do some decent regular water changes )

We have 6 Anthias, granted most are pretty large so they probably could have a smaller meal for a little while.
I think we’ll need to the new skimmer... Just a big $$$ for the one we need. At least we’re in this for the long run.

 

[clm65]

Thanks, I have a GFO reactor but never really noticed a difference when its ran versus not...
It’s quite possible the the LC is removing phosphate and then the rock is leaching more out? We have the Hanna Checker that maxes out at 2.5ppm, the ICP text said 2.79ppm so we are definitely high. I thought after a week of dosing we would have come down a little bit but my guess is we’re just not dosing enough or more phosphate is leaching as we go.

Yes, the LC (or GFO) will knock it down, but then it will come back up, almost to the level it was before knocking it down. That is because it is leaching out of your rocks. It is going to be a repetitive process, but you will get there.