Phosphate RX killed my yellow tang :(

[melev]

This morning my absolutely healthy Yellow Tang was dead. I've had it for almost a year. It never had any issues, never had white spots, never got picked on by my other (healthy) fish. Today dead. The only thing I did differently yesterday was dose Phosphate RX because my PO4 was measuring 0.5. I almost never dose it. I probably used it one or twice in the last year.
Nothing else in my tank was affected: corals, inverts, other fish. Just my poor Yellow Tang.
Very suspicious.

Sorry to hear that. About 15 years ago, there was a problem with a similar product and yellow tangs. However, I have two Yellow Tangs (purchased in 2011) in my own reef that have been through (5 treatments per year) of Phosphate Rx, and recently several doses of Phosban-L, and never skipped a beat.

The one thing that I've heard is that you need to make sure your alkalinity is high enough when using lanthanum products. Some have suggested preventatively dosing an alkalinity buffer 20 minutes prior to dosing phosphate binding products. I've never done that, but I've seen it suggested from time to time.

 

[Reefahholic]

I haven’t experienced any ill effects if you dose according to the instructions. I’ve dose LaCI and RX in socks, out of socks, in overflows, in skimmer necks, and have yet to see it have any negative effects on my fish.

If you go too fast then you can have issues.

 

[RMS18]

Sorry to hear about your loss. I can also add that I've been using Phosphate RX for almost a year now with no issues with my live stock. I do not have tangs in that system but i do have sensitive wrasses. I dose into a high flow area with no issues at all, even when the water gets a little cloudy as per the instructions say it might my fish swim around with no problems.

 

[Reefahholic]

A few months ago I tested a small system (25/G) with a heavy dose. About 3x what I normally dose to see what the affects would be.

Fish did just fine, but of course it stripped the water column pretty bad. Took 3 days for the corals to open back up. Took the PO4 to near zero. You just need to dose slow in a reef tank. Didn’t drop the ALK, but did have a minimal affect on the PH. I’m assuming it could affect oxygenation.

 

[ea2000]

Sorry to hear that. About 15 years ago, there was a problem with a similar product and yellow tangs. However, I have two Yellow Tangs (purchased in 2011) in my own reef that have been through (5 treatments per year) of Phosphate Rx, and recently several doses of Phosban-L, and never skipped a beat.

The one thing that I've heard is that you need to make sure your alkalinity is high enough when using lanthanum products. Some have suggested preventatively dosing an alkalinity buffer 20 minutes prior to dosing phosphate binding products. I've never done that, but I've seen it suggested from time to time.

Hello Mark,
(FYI, I love your videos and blog. The info has been invaluable in setting up my first reef tank. THANKS!)
I've tested my water before and after and all was pretty normal:
Salinity unchanged, 1.025
Alk unchanged, 9.9 dkh (I like to keep it even higher)
Calcium unchanged, 320ppm (I know it's low, I dose Kalk)
PO4 went from 0.5 to zero (the product works!)
I have 3 other fish in my tank, a large Tomato clown, a large Odonus trigger and a baby Ocellaris clown, a bunch of snails, a brittle star, two urchins, and a billion flatworms. Nothing else was affected, not even a single flatworm!

 

[ea2000]

Here is a response from the makers of Phosphate RX to a letter I sent them:

Thanks for your email and I’m sorry for the loss!
We have also seen problems with yellow tangs too and it’s still a mystery.
We found out about a year ago that a 5-10 micron filter sock can filter out the particulates when dosing. This is now a preferred method for dosing the product.
It’s just really weird how yellow tangs can be effected and it’s not always the same result. Depends on your Phosphate level at the time of dosing. I recommend that half doses are used if yellow tangs are present and phosphate is high.
Can I replace the yellow tang for you? I don’t mind at all.
Let me know. Feel free to call me as well anytime. 818-269-8903
Best regards


Eric Cohen
Blue Life USA
The Future of Aquarium Products
20748 Martha Street
Woodland Hills, CA 91367
Ph: 888-895-(BLUE) 2583
Fax: 888-895-5072
www.bluelifeusa.com

 

[Cory]

Here is a response from the makers of Phosphate RX to a letter I sent them:

Thanks for your email and I’m sorry for the loss!
We have also seen problems with yellow tangs too and it’s still a mystery.
We found out about a year ago that a 5-10 micron filter sock can filter out the particulates when dosing. This is now a preferred method for dosing the product.
It’s just really weird how yellow tangs can be effected and it’s not always the same result. Depends on your Phosphate level at the time of dosing. I recommend that half doses are used if yellow tangs are present and phosphate is high.
Can I replace the yellow tang for you? I don’t mind at all.
Let me know. Feel free to call me as well anytime. 818-269-8903
Best regards


Eric Cohen
Blue Life USA
The Future of Aquarium Products
20748 Martha Street
Woodland Hills, CA 91367
Ph: 888-895-(BLUE) 2583
Fax: 888-895-5072
www.bluelifeusa.com

Thats amazing he wants to buy another yellow tang!

 

[BigJohnny]

Has anyone had any other fish die after dosing or just tangs?

 

[BigJohnny]

bump. still curious if this is only a yellow tang thing. I have a copperband im worried about

 

[jeffmr4]

I just had 3 drops kill four clownfish in a 10 gallon tank. That was all the fish in the tank. My emerald crab and snails are still alive. Tested parameters, all are good.

 

[BigJohnny]

I just had 3 drops kill four clownfish in a 10 gallon tank. That was all the fish in the tank. My emerald crab and snails are still alive. Tested parameters, all are good.

Sorry to hear that. How did you dose it and what were your phosphate and alk levels before and after dosing?

 

[Sallstrom]

Hi,
I'm working at a public aquarium and we've used LaCl now and then when phosphate has been a bit higher(above 0,1). Always very diluted and added before a sand pressure filter. So in our case we haven't had any fish deaths due to LaCl.

I'm not a chemist, so this is just a though. But could it be the free La3+ that's causing the damage to the fish? In tanks with high PO4 the lanthanum binds to phosphate pretty fast I guess. While in low phosphate tanks the free lanthanum ion might be around in the water column for some time and perhaps end up in the gills of a fish?

Like I wrote, I'm just guessing, so feel free to correct me.

Anyway, since I've heard of these story's of tangs dying due to possible poisoning of LaCl for many years, we do no use it unless the phosphate are high and we dilute the LaCl so our doses are very small and dosed over many hours. Otherwise we use regular phosphate removers. Better safe than sorry.

 

[jeffmr4]

Sorry to hear that. How did you dose it and what were your phosphate and alk levels before and after dosing?

Hello,
I didn't test before. Primarily because I've had this brown kind of algae in my tank and my Hanna test kit always reads 0. Others said the algae was consuming the phosphate before my test kit was able to measure it. I dispersed it in a high flow area although not in a filter sock (no instruction to do so on the box or bottle). My Alk after was 8.8. Not sure what it was before but I don't think it was too high. I did notice a pretty quick decrease in brown algae.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Sorry for the loss, given it was a fish that passed not inverts it is very possible this was a dissolved o2 decrease that happened.

Any type of algae intervention especially chemical that do not involve removing algae first it is important to increase the gas exchange in the system. Adding and airstone, moving powerheads, making sure temperature is controlled and does not raise etc.
dead and dying algae will quickly use up the 7-10 do that a tank has.

 

[Blackice615]

Can I use LaCl using an Fx6 canister filter or Reef Octopus 2000 HOB protein skimmer? I have a 125 gallon system and perform biweekly changes on my canister filter to swap out the phosguard.

I have very thick water filter pads in the filter that could trap the particles as well. Perhaps I could drip LaCl prior to the biweekly maintenance?

 

[BigJohnny]

Hi,
I'm working at a public aquarium and we've used LaCl now and then when phosphate has been a bit higher(above 0,1). Always very diluted and added before a sand pressure filter. So in our case we haven't had any fish deaths due to LaCl.

I'm not a chemist, so this is just a though. But could it be the free La3+ that's causing the damage to the fish? In tanks with high PO4 the lanthanum binds to phosphate pretty fast I guess. While in low phosphate tanks the free lanthanum ion might be around in the water column for some time and perhaps end up in the gills of a fish?

Like I wrote, I'm just guessing, so feel free to correct me.

Anyway, since I've heard of these story's of tangs dying due to possible poisoning of LaCl for many years, we do no use it unless the phosphate are high and we dilute the LaCl so our doses are very small and dosed over many hours. Otherwise we use regular phosphate removers. Better safe than sorry.

Thanks. Yea I suspect some people see issues for 2 reasons:

1. They dose too much too fast and there's unreacted lanthanum in the water column. This could be due to low phosphates or not enough contact time etc.

2. Not filtering out precipitate. 5 micron filter socks or your sand filter should do that.

Have no idea why yellow tangs are the primary victim in these scenarios, but my phosphates are insanely high right now and I want to try dosing. I plan to dose very small diluted amount over 6-8 hrs through a 5 micron filter sock with high water flow through it.

 

[BigJohnny]

Hello,
I didn't test before. Primarily because I've had this brown kind of algae in my tank and my Hanna test kit always reads 0. Others said the algae was consuming the phosphate before my test kit was able to measure it. I dispersed it in a high flow area although not in a filter sock (no instruction to do so on the box or bottle). My Alk after was 8.8. Not sure what it was before but I don't think it was too high. I did notice a pretty quick decrease in brown algae.

You probably had issues because you dosed a lot at once with no small micron filter/into skimmer neck and had low phosphates. I bet if you tested your water it would have high lanthanum levels.

 

[BigJohnny]

Can I use LaCl using an Fx6 canister filter or Reef Octopus 2000 HOB protein skimmer? I have a 125 gallon system and perform biweekly changes on my canister filter to swap out the phosguard.

I have very thick water filter pads in the filter that could trap the particles as well. Perhaps I could drip LaCl prior to the biweekly maintenance?

I strongly recommend you dose into a 5 micron filter sock. I doubt your canister filter or scrubber pads will catch much precipitate. You also have to heavily dilute the solution and drip it very slowly over time so that all of the LaCl reacts with phosphate or carbonate.

 

[PhilSD211]

I first heard of phosphate RX from Meleev... but didn't try it till few months ago. Actually, a local reefer had some Sea Clear commercial grade and swore it works for him so I got a bit from him. He said to drip it very diluted (1mL in 1gallon DI water) directly in to the skimmer. I had the normal 200 micron filter sock and didn't have 5 or 10 micron socks when I was dosing.
Think I dosed maybe a gallon over a week or so... I have a 25g tank. Think it did take my phosphates from near 1ppm to almost zero in that time...
But at the same time, my healthy 2 year old yellow tang started to develop red splotches all over it's body. The water never got cloudy at all but the red splotches appeared on the tang within a day or two of dosing.
Yeah yeah, i know it was getting too big for my 25g but wife got attached to it since we got it as a tiny baby and wouldn't let me sell/trade it.
Anyway, I stopped dosing LaCl and tried to treat the red splotches as bacterial infection with the 3 recommended meds I read about. No help. but it was still healthy, no behavior change and ate everything I fed. just was covered with the red blotches for weeks.
I ended up convincing wife to let me take it to LFS for quarantine/treatment. I think whatever meds they used did get rid of the red splotches within days. But a week later, it went missing and no one knew if they sold it, or worse... =/
I've gone back to GFO again but it is a pain and not as effective. Now and then I want to try LaCl again... I did buy 10 micron socks and it should be fine now that yellow tang is gone... but I don't know...
There's gotta be a better way...

 

[Silent]

I first heard of phosphate RX from Meleev... but didn't try it till few months ago. Actually, a local reefer had some Sea Clear commercial grade and swore it works for him so I got a bit from him. He said to drip it very diluted (1mL in 1gallon DI water) directly in to the skimmer. I had the normal 200 micron filter sock and didn't have 5 or 10 micron socks when I was dosing.
Think I dosed maybe a gallon over a week or so... I have a 25g tank. Think it did take my phosphates from near 1ppm to almost zero in that time...
But at the same time, my healthy 2 year old yellow tang started to develop red splotches all over it's body. The water never got cloudy at all but the red splotches appeared on the tang within a day or two of dosing.
Yeah yeah, i know it was getting too big for my 25g but wife got attached to it since we got it as a tiny baby and wouldn't let me sell/trade it.
Anyway, I stopped dosing LaCl and tried to treat the red splotches as bacterial infection with the 3 recommended meds I read about. No help. but it was still healthy, no behavior change and ate everything I fed. just was covered with the red blotches for weeks.
I ended up convincing wife to let me take it to LFS for quarantine/treatment. I think whatever meds they used did get rid of the red splotches within days. But a week later, it went missing and no one knew if they sold it, or worse... =/
I've gone back to GFO again but it is a pain and not as effective. Now and then I want to try LaCl again... I did buy 10 micron socks and it should be fine now that yellow tang is gone... but I don't know...
There's gotta be a better way...

Maybe try a different type other than SeaKlear like the one Meleev uses (BlueLife).